The Biblical Realities of Hell

[Resume]

Just for fun.[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_22284db96d2b9bee2.jpg[/qimg]

It is funny how much the author of that quote got wrong. It's disconcerting however the extent theists do not understand cosmology, biology, physics, etc.

 

[RoboTimbo]

It is funny how much the author of that quote got wrong. It's disconcerting however the extent theists do not understand cosmology, biology, physics, etc.

Isn't that what edge's next post was addressing? How much of an idiot the author is and drags other people who believe such garbage down with him?

 

[Agatha]

...and almost entirely wrong. That is not a description of atheism.

 

[Resume]

Isn't that what edge's next post was addressing? How much of an idiot the author is and drags other people who believe such garbage down with him?

I believe you are correct.

 

[Paulhoff]

I already did this you missed it too, the O.T. was abolished by Christ.

Again, your Christ did not abolished the OT....

(Matt. 5:17), "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill."

Paul

 

[Paulhoff]

Words of wisdom

And when people point that out, it is only when they are losing.

Paul

 

[Sun Countess]

I already did this you missed it too, the O.T. was abolished by Christ.

He didn't do a very good job abolishing it, though, did he? It's still attached to the bibles that Christians use, and you still get your cherished list of ten commandments from it. Otherwise, how would you know how wrong it is to covet your neighbor's property? No commandments against child molestation, rape, or slavery, but gosh darn it, don't carve a graven image!

Exactly which parts of the OT did Jesus abolish, and when will he get through cleaning out all those old bibles of the unnecessary bits?

 

[bikerdruid]

He didn't do a very good job abolishing it, though, did he? It's still attached to the bibles that Christians use, and you still get your cherished list of ten commandments from it. Otherwise, how would you know how wrong it is to covet your neighbor's property? No commandments against child molestation, rape, or slavery, but gosh darn it, don't carve a graven image!

Exactly which parts of the OT did Jesus abolish, and when will he get through cleaning out all those old bibles of the unnecessary bits?

i have been told many times by 'christians' that it's now ok to eat lobster and wear mixed textiles, but that's still an abomination to be queer, because paul reinforced that condemnation, and of course, it does not matter that jesus never condemned queers, because paul spoke for jesus.

it seems that those 'christians' covered all their bases.

 

[Paulhoff]

i have been told many times by 'christians' that it's now ok to eat lobster and wear mixed textiles, but that's still an abomination to be queer, because paul reinforced that condemnation, and of course, it does not matter that jesus never condemned queers, because paul spoke for jesus.

it seems that those 'christians' covered all their bases.

It is the old, "Keep what you like, to show that you're right", and "Throw out what you don't like, so that you can do what you want".

Paul



And I don't speak for Jesus

 

[Elizabeth I]

Oh I forgot that the Romans never took slaves back to Rome and the coliseums, or that they didn't kill Christians off at all in their death games?

What? Where did I say anything about the Romans not having slaves? But while your Jesus was ridding the Hebrews of slavery, he could have taken the time to beat it out of the Romans too.

These things happen when people are unconscious and we know the brain is incapable of creating images while in that state.
There you go with the lack of oxygen again.
Lack of heart beat lack of any brain activity.
Lack of all these things = dead…

When pilots and astronauts are placed in centrifuges to test their ability to withstand high G-forces, they pass out and I bet that none of those experience Jesus or heaven... or hell.
You keep on telling yourself that.

I have already told you of at least two ways that the brain can be deprived of oxygen while a person is still alive, and even if that person is receiving additional oxygen treatment. Please pay attention.

Is slavery illegal today? Yes, but there are more slaves in the world today than anytime in history.
Even with improved laws of our morality.

Yep, too bad your Jesus didn't live up to his responsibility to rid the world of at least that one plague. If he had done his job right, you wouldn't be able to talk about how many slaves there are today.

 

[devnull]

When pilots and astronauts are placed in centrifuges to test their ability to withstand high G-forces, they pass out and I bet that none of those experience Jesus or heaven... or hell.

Just out of interest, how much are you willing to bet on this?

 

[Paulhoff]

Hell is base on Jesus being true............





Paul

 

[HghrSymmetry]

My point was that if hundreds or thousands of people in Jerusalem saw friends and relatives come back from the dead all on the same day, then pretty much everyone would be talking about that for years to come. Why did no one outside the Bible write down anything about that event?

It would have been one the most monumental events in history. People that had been dead for months, years, decade, centuries (many of which should be reduced to skeletons) would have been noticed by locals, jewish clergy,
Romans, etc, etc.
Interesting how your target calls it an "obsure event". It would have been the exact opposite.
Of course Pliny, Josephus, Philo, nor even Paul make no mention of it because it's a literary device.
The authors probably just wondered what happens to all the righteous people that died before junior came along.
This was a way to answer that question.

 

[edge]

And when people point that out, it is only when they are losing.

Paul

Losing ? Losing what?

It would have been one the most monumental events in history. People that had been dead for months, years, decade, centuries (many of which should be reduced to skeletons) would have been noticed by locals, jewish clergy,
Romans, etc, etc.

Now I know you are dense.

Obviously these were the people like today who had an N.D.E. dead for a short time, duhuh!!!
There was probably several deaths each day or week back then.

As I pointed out less than Christ, less than three days.
No one comes back after three days, except Christ period.
What is wrong with you people?
You want it to be what you want it to be to keep your… I guess it could be described as belief.
I look at it with logic and understanding.
How obstinate and ridicules can you be, all for denial?

 

[edge]

What? Where did I say anything about the Romans not having slaves? But while your Jesus was ridding the Hebrews of slavery, he could have taken the time to beat it out of the Romans too.


I have already told you of at least two ways that the brain can be deprived of oxygen while a person is still alive, and even if that person is receiving additional oxygen treatment. Please pay attention.



Yep, too bad your Jesus didn't live up to his responsibility to rid the world of at least that one plague. If he had done his job right, you wouldn't be able to talk about how many slaves there are today.

Numerous people have had Near Death Experiences after their hearts stopped, or they have stopped breathing; and 10 seconds later the EEG (measure of brain electrical activity) - goes absolutely "flat". If so, how can any scientist say that this NDE is a conscious experience? Also, there have been numerous blind people (blind from birth) who reported Near Death Experiences. And for most of these their NDE's are "visual" experiences. How can these be? It is thought that over 10 million Americans have had Near Death Experiences. Why do "scientists" not study these more? These are not drug induced hallucinations. How can so many people report nearly the same details in their experience if they were due to drugs chemically acting on brain cells? Most people who undergo NDE's say that they are not "dream-like" events, but instead, very real and structured "visits". Also, for most people, an NDE is a "life changing" experience.

http://bibleprobe.com/nde.htm

An unconscious mind does not make images...

And again he didn't free the slaves as you want or think, but spiritually, what else do you want him to do Judas?

You are going to force Gods Hands?

No oxygen, no heart beat, no BRAIN WAVES, THIS MEANS DEAD.
PAY ATTENTION.
Could be for a minute could be for a day.

What you want it to say isn't what has been described...in the reports.

They start to remove organs from donors when this point is reached and usually they are still keeping the persons organs alive with oxygen.

But non-organ donors are put into the morgue or DNR persons.

 

[Ladewig]

Losing ? Losing what?


Now I know you are dense.

Obviously these were the people like today who had an N.D.E. dead for a short time, duhuh!!!

I cannot think of anything sillier than reading the Bible and then saying "Obviously, it means this." Hundreds of millions of Christians come up with hundreds of thousands of interpretations. Nothing is obvious. As was pointed out in this thread, U.S. slave owners in 1858 said "obviously, Jesus supports slavery." Even today, white supremacists say, "One only has to read Genesis and Exodus to see that God is obviously against race mixing."

Let's look at the actual text.

Matt 27:52-54
tombs were opened, and many saints who had died were brought back to life.
After his resurrection, they came out of their tombs and went into the Holy City and appeared to many people.
When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son of God!"

1) How many "saints" died on the same day as Jesus?
2) If the people had been dead only a few minute or hours, why would that be impressive in any way? Surely the Jews, the Romans, and the rest of the ancient world had seen people mistakenly declared dead only to rise up and walk again within the hour.
3) Lazarus was in the tomb four days. Did his resurrection take away from Jesus's feat?

 

[Paulhoff]

Losing ? Losing what?

Losing the discussion, it is so obvious.

Paul

 

[Paulhoff]

As I pointed out less than Christ, less than three days.
No one comes back after three days, except Christ period.
What is wrong with you people?
You want it to be what you want it to be to keep your… I guess it could be described as belief.
I look at it with logic and understanding.
How obstinate and ridicules can you be, all for denial?

No one comes back after three days, three hours, three minutes not even Christ once the brain is dead, because the brain is them and not some magical soul.

What is wrong with you?

You want it to be what you want it to be to keep your, I guess it could be described as misguided belief.

I look at the universe with logic, it is what it is no matter what I want it to be, with understanding comes with that.

How obstinate and ridicules can you be, all for denial of how it is.

Yep, it works both ways.

Well not really, yours is based on believe, which is only that and can't be tested because you refuse to change it, even when it is shown to be wrong, because you need it to be right. Ours on the other hand can be tested and is changed when proven wrong and because we don’t need non-truths to be right.

You are the one that needs this miracle story to be true in order to make the so-called “Revealed Truths” in the bible real. We don't need miracles to make ideas into truths, they must stand on their own merited and not so-called miracles.

Paul

 

[HghrSymmetry]

"Again they said, He saved others, Himself He cannot save, (Matthew 27:42) but He while abiding on the cross proved this most abundantly on the bodies of His servants. For if for Lazarus to rise on the fourth day was a great thing, how much more for all those who had long ago fallen asleep, at once to appear alive, which was a sign of the future resurrection. For, many bodies of the saints which slept, arose, it is said, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many. For in order that what was done might not be accounted to be an imagination, they appear, even to many, in the city."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200188.htm



Even the early church father John Chrysostom (writing in the 4th century) condisdered the "rising saints" dead "long ago".
That is hardly an endorsement for NDE.

Obviously these were the people like today who had an N.D.E. dead for a short time, duhuh!!!
There was probably several deaths each day or week back then.

As I pointed out less than Christ, less than three days.
No one comes back after three days, except Christ period.
What is wrong with you people?
You want it to be what you want it to be to keep your… I guess it could be described as belief.
I look at it with logic and understanding.
How obstinate and ridicules can you be, all for denial?

Good one. That's far too entertaining for this thread.
Unfortunately, the truly sad part is, I'm darn near certain you don't/can't see the irony.

 

[HghrSymmetry]

1) How many "saints" died on the same day as Jesus?
2) If the people had been dead only a few minute or hours, why would that be impressive in any way? Surely the Jews, the Romans, and the rest of the ancient world had seen people mistakenly declared dead only to rise up and walk again within the hour.
3) Lazarus was in the tomb four days. Did his resurrection take away from Jesus's feat?

Biblical passages don't seem to specify the number. Some say "many."
Some woo sites claim a number around 50 (I have no idea how they justify that number).

The "darkness at noon", earthquakes, tearing of the temple curtain*, and the "rising saints" are part of the theme to give juniors death a theological significance.
Some scholars see the "rising saints" story as a way explain the ultimate fate of not only recently departed, but also old testament characters long dead. The author of Mathew (and his audience) many have wondered what the fate was of righteous Jews that never lived to hear the "good news."

Of course, Paul doesn't mention any of these details,.. none. It appears the stories developed later. Even if they were circulating in Paul's time, he sure didn't seem to think they were of much importance.

*Incidentally, the sacking of the temple was not a very distant event when Mark (and later Matthew) were written. The accounts of Titus slashing and then parading the curtain through the streets of Rome may have been remembered by some.
There is also the symbolism of gawd ripping the curtain to symbolize juniors expiration and as a jab at the Jewish temple elite...in effect saying the old traditions are superseded by the new "updated" traditions of junior.