The Biblical Realities of Hell

[edge]

A question to ask a Calvinist, not I.



Neither, now what does that have to do with my analogy on personal revelation?



I fail to see what this has to do with any point I've raised.

Clarify your point.

 

[edge]

This is one of the times I hate the autocensor, because there are a few posts for which the only possible answer is "********."

First, you are talking about GOD - according to you, the Creator of the Universe, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. He can do anything he wants to, anyway he wants to. It's stupid to say that if Jesus had spoken against slavery, God's plan wouldn't have turned out the way he wanted it to, because, according to you, Jesus IS God, and by your definition of God anything that happens is because he either wanted it to happen or allowed it to happen.

Second, according to the story Jesus got crucified by the Romans regardless. Wouldn't it have sent a more glorious message if he had been crucified for opposing the whole cruel, oppressive structure of slavery, rather than for causing a civil unrest problem because of a piddling feud with the local religious establishment in a backwater province?

Seriously, edge, it seems as if you sometimes do try to reason. Try to think about this stuff sensibly and don't tell people that God Almighty couldn't make a plan turn out the way he wants it to. That's just a stupid thing to say.

I just read this.
Why would God just fix the slavery issue?
Why not theft and murder?
He knows we in general can't resist sin no matter what the laws are just as today.
You say:

Second, according to the story Jesus got crucified by the Romans regardless

I can't believe you can't see this.
Gods plan went exactly as he wanted it to go.
As Pilot said I wash my hands of his death because he, “Christ”, in their eyes or laws was an innocent casualty, innocent according to the laws that the Hebrew were slaves to, both Roman and the cultural laws that they kept again even in domination by another nation.


The Hebrews were slaves and after freedom were slaves again in Babylon and then slaves to the Romans, the Hebrews kept failing because the kept worshiping other gods.
This was predicted.
They would be taken out again and spread around the world and what makes them special and rewarded to receive their homeland again was that they remained a nation even in exile, and kept their beliefs.
This capture of nations usually meant that the nation that is captured, 9 times out of 10 would be absorbed and they then would worship the Gods of the nation that capture them.
They never worship another nations Gods so things no matter how bad they got kept their nation intact even in a foreign land along with their belief system.

What you say in bold above is off a bit.
Back water you mean the biggest city of the times in that area?
He covered all sins not just the slavery issue.
The Zealots had that issue covered. This is what he was avoiding for a reason of innocents, purity, killing and raising an army to kill others. That isn’t what he was to share with us, love and murder even as they were slaves to the Romans.

The O.T. was reassembled in Babylon after the first temple was burned to the ground. The priests took and saved only a few scrolls and rewrote the Torah, while slaves to the Babylonians, and there were several scribes that tried to put it back together, to save their nation while in exile. This was the reason of the conflict .In the O.T….
Some one took what the scribes rewrote and blended the stories together because this was all that was saved.
This is the reason why in O.T.…. there are two accounts of creation, two ten commandments and so forth.
While keeping the bloodline pure as they can under enslavement is why all the city country rape laws and why circumcisions was such a big thing, the refusal to worship the many Gods of Babylon and the ability to know who was who.
Like I said everything, all mostly in the O.T was meant to be for their culture and freedoms, not to mention justice for their culture/beliefs.


When you say in bold above: piddling feud.

It was a feud over the true nature of God for the rest of the world’s populations because they painted such a narrow picture of God; God is for everyone not just the Hebrews.
It had to be set straight.
For example, the Samaritans. They were the most despised people of the times. Part Jew, part gentile. The Jews hated them. But Jesus taught to help them and accept them in love. It was just one of many things to show the true nature of God. Granted, that is the NT but, never the less the conclusion for the example of the nature of God.

9then He said, "(R)BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second.
10By this will we have been (S)sanctified through (T)the offering of (U)the body of Jesus Christ (V)once for all.
11Every priest stands daily ministering and (W)offering time after time the same sacrifices, which (X)can never take away sins;
12but He, having offered one sacrifice (Y)for sins (Z)for all time, (AA)SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
13waiting from that time onward (AB)UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
14For by one offering He has (AC)perfected (AD)for all time those who are sanctified.

If you wish to read more: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+10&version=NASB

 

[edge]

You are missing the point completely. The name of the event is irrelevant. The point was: why did no one else write down this event. People were placed in tombs - they walked out of these tombs and everyone saw them. Why didn't any other contemporaneous source record the event?

In fact, your description is even more troubling than the zombie one because now we have to wonder why none of the NDEers wrote down his or her story? Surely that would have been evidence to first century folk looking for a true religion.

I'm missing the point?
I would think that a loved one coming back as a Zombie would be a great troubling?
What's to wonder, they held oral tradition as the most popular way to send this out and some one recorded the event once.
Who was going to record a death back then on paper, the Romans?
One recording of the event on many people’s minds wasn't enough?
Think about what else they were saying and recording at that moment.
What was more important at that time, the whole history and meaning of the Christ, or others that came back, heck it's only one obscure event.

We don't have the Christ now in the flesh doing these things we do have the phenomena of N.D.E. or the proof of these events in the form of witnessing as it was back then.
It would have to be the same then as it is now.
There are thousands of cases recorded now, thousands.
The main message is, there's something more.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Gods plan went exactly as he wanted it to go.

You said that if Jesus had spoken out against slavery, it would have ruined God's plans. I pointed out that, according to you, God is in charge of everything, so if Jesus were worth 2¢ he could have abolished slavery and still have carried God's plan to fruition. It's stupid to say anything else, but you not only said it, you appear determined to stick to it.

As Pilot said I wash my hands of his death because he, “Christ”, in their eyes or laws was an innocent casualty, innocent according to the laws that the Hebrew were slaves to, both Roman and the cultural laws that they kept again even in domination by another nation.

You don't really know how the Roman Empire worked, do you? As long as there was civil tranquillity in a province, and they sent in their taxes on time and in full, the Romans didn't mess with local politics. Their only interest was in keeping the peace and collecting the taxes. So Pilate's answer was essentially, "I think you're all full of it, but it's none of my business and anything for a peaceful life, so do what you want to."

And you might remember that, according to the story, it wasn't Jews who hung Christ on the cross, it was Roman soldiers.

Geeze!

 

[Paulhoff]

I just read this.
Why would God just fix the slavery issue?

That would come in the form of a so-called commandment, "Thou shall have no Slave and/or Slaves" and being a so-called loving god, why wouldn't he.

As I've said before, time for you to find a real god.

Paul

 

[Ladewig]

I'm missing the point?
I would think that a loved one coming back as a Zombie would be a great troubling?
What's to wonder, they held oral tradition as the most popular way to send this out and some one recorded the event once.
Who was going to record a death back then on paper, the Romans?
One recording of the event on many people’s minds wasn't enough?
Think about what else they were saying and recording at that moment.
What was more important at that time, the whole history and meaning of the Christ, or others that came back, heck it's only one obscure event.

Let's back up. I will concede that people rising from the graves as the type of mindless zombies as seen in mid-twentieth century Hollywwod films would be absurd. I will concede that the people who rose from their graves were fully-functioning people who remembered dying and coming back to life. I am not talking about death certificates, wherever did you get that idea? My point was that if hundreds or thousands of people in Jerusalem saw friends and relatives come back from the dead all on the same day, then pretty much everyone would be talking about that for years to come. Why did no one outside the Bible write down anything about that event?

We don't have the Christ now in the flesh doing these things we do have the phenomena of N.D.E. or the proof of these events in the form of witnessing as it was back then.
It would have to be the same then as it is now.
There are thousands of cases recorded now, thousands.
The main message is, there's something more.

And again we come to the heart of the matter in every single one of your threads: what counts as evidence. People having NDEs is not evidence that the God of the Bible exists and is not even evidence that an afterlife exists. They are mere evidence that people's brains play tricks when deprived of oxygen. We can be certain of that because when pilots and astronauts are placed in centrifuges to test their ability to withstand high G-forces, thy have the exact same responses as people "dying" in a hospital.

 

[Ladewig]

That would come in the form of a so-called commandment, "Thou shall have no Slave and/or Slaves" and being a so-called loving god, why wouldn't he.

seconded

No one here is asking why God didn't make slavery disappear. We are all asking why God the Father or God the Son didn't publicly condemn it.

 

[edge]

You said that if Jesus had spoken out against slavery, it would have ruined God's plans. I pointed out that, according to you, God is in charge of everything, so if Jesus were worth 2¢ he could have abolished slavery and still have carried God's plan to fruition. It's stupid to say anything else, but you not only said it, you appear determined to stick to it.



You don't really know how the Roman Empire worked, do you? As long as there was civil tranquillity in a province, and they sent in their taxes on time and in full, the Romans didn't mess with local politics. Their only interest was in keeping the peace and collecting the taxes. So Pilate's answer was essentially, "I think you're all full of it, but it's none of my business and anything for a peaceful life, so do what you want to."

And you might remember that, according to the story, it wasn't Jews who hung Christ on the cross, it was Roman soldiers.

Geeze!

Oh I forgot that the Romans never took slaves back to Rome and the coliseums, or that they didn't kill Christians off at all in their death games? Geez!
But you are right when you say:

As long as there was civil tranquillity in a province, and they sent in their taxes on time and in full, the Romans didn't mess with local politics. Their only interest was in keeping the peace and collecting the taxes.

Because there wasn’t a rebel uprising at all.
Again I’ll say there were thousands of things God could have done but didn’t.
It is about what he did and was most concerned with that is most important.

I'll post it agaian you maybe missed this:
9then He said, "(R)BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second.
10By this will we have been (S)sanctified through (T)the offering of (U)the body of Jesus Christ (V)once for all.
11Every priest stands daily ministering and (W)offering time after time the same sacrifices, which (X)can never take away sins;
12but He, having offered one sacrifice (Y)for sins (Z)for all time, (AA)SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
13waiting from that time onward (AB)UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
14For by one offering He has (AC)perfected (AD)for all time those who are sanctified.
Because of this we are allowed more time.
Is slavery illegal today? Yes, but there are more slaves in the world today than anytime in history.
Even with improved laws of our morality

 

[edge]

That would come in the form of a so-called commandment, "Thou shall have no Slave and/or Slaves" and being a so-called loving god, why wouldn't he.

As I've said before, time for you to find a real god.

Paul

I think he covered this as far as forced slavery.
Do unto others, as you would have them do to you.
I don't want to be a slave so I won't force some one else to be a slave.
You are blind.

 

[Resume]

Do unto others, as you would have them do to you.

Too bad many christians don't follow the creed of their christ.

 

[edge]

Let's back up. I will concede that people rising from the graves as the type of mindless zombies as seen in mid-twentieth century Hollywwod films would be absurd. I will concede that the people who rose from their graves were fully-functioning people who remembered dying and coming back to life. I am not talking about death certificates, wherever did you get that idea? My point was that if hundreds or thousands of people in Jerusalem saw friends and relatives come back from the dead all on the same day, then pretty much everyone would be talking about that for years to come. Why did no one outside the Bible write down anything about that event?




And again we come to the heart of the matter in every single one of your threads: what counts as evidence. People having NDEs is not evidence that the God of the Bible exists and is not even evidence that an afterlife exists. They are mere evidence that people's brains play tricks when deprived of oxygen. We can be certain of that because when pilots and astronauts are placed in centrifuges to test their ability to withstand high G-forces, thy have the exact same responses as people "dying" in a hospital.

These things happen when people are unconscious and we know the brain is incapable of creating images while in that state.
There you go with the lack of oxygen again.
Lack of heart beat lack of any brain activity.
Lack of all these things = dead…

When pilots and astronauts are placed in centrifuges to test their ability to withstand high G-forces, they pass out and I bet that none of those experience Jesus or heaven... or hell.
You keep on telling yourself that.

 

[edge]

seconded

No one here is asking why God didn't make slavery disappear. We are all asking why God the Father or God the Son didn't publicly condemn it.

Because then he would have been like the God of the O.T. when Jesus described him as the opposite of what the Hebrews wrote about him.
I answered this above to Paul.
You wipe your child’s butt till he can do it for himself; we know now and then what to do about slavery.
God requires mercy so where’s the mercy when a person subjugates another person into slavery?

This is one of the reasons that Christianity is still with us today so now close your eyes again.

 

[Paulhoff]

I think he covered this as far as forced slavery.
Do unto others, as you would have them do to you.
I don't want to be a slave so I won't force some one else to be a slave.
You are blind.

Yes you are very blind, but that still doesn't change what is written in you so-called god's book.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

So if you are part of the in crowd, slavey isn't for you, but on the other hand...............

Nowhere in that book is there anything that says slavery is just plain wrong. You can think of what you will of that book, but you can't show me that in that book.

So many say that they have found their morals there. Sorry, but I find that funny and at the same time just out and out sad.

Paul

 

[Resume]

This is one of the reasons that Christianity is still with us today so now close your eyes again.

Why are all the rest of the competing religions still with us then?

 

[Ladewig]

Why are all the rest of the competing religions still with us then?

seconded.

Also, why did hundreds of thousands of Christians in the 1850s use the Bible as proof that God condones slavery?

If an Omnipotent Being knew His writings would be perverted in this way, then doesn't He have a responsibility to make His message clear?



ETA: also, why did no one outside the Bible (and the other Gospel writers) not write a single word about the day that the dead rose from their graves to walk among the living?

 

[Ladewig]

These things happen when people are unconscious and we know the brain is incapable of creating images while in that state.
There you go with the lack of oxygen again.
Lack of heart beat lack of any brain activity.
Lack of all these things = dead…

When pilots and astronauts are placed in centrifuges to test their ability to withstand high G-forces, they pass out and I bet that none of those experience Jesus or heaven... or hell.
You keep on telling yourself that.

A topic too big for this thread.

Let's talk about it in a thread devoted to that topic: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207496

 

[Paulhoff]

This is one of the reasons that Christianity is still with us today so now close your eyes again.

No that would be because people are afraid of death. And if you check your history you will find that the your religion has changed over the years not because of anything from the inside, but because science time and time again has shown the real world, for what it is and not what the people inside said religion want it to be.

Paul

 

[edge]

Yes you are very blind, but that still doesn't change what is written in you so-called god's book.



So if you are part of the in crowd, slavey isn't for you, but on the other hand...............

Nowhere in that book is there anything that says slavery is just plain wrong. You can think of what you will of that book, but you can't show me that in that book.

So many say that they have found their morals there. Sorry, but I find that funny and at the same time just out and out sad.

Paul

I already did this you missed it too, the O.T. was abolished by Christ.
One more time.
I'll post it agaian you maybe missed this:

9then He said, "(R)BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second.
10By this will we have been (S)sanctified through (T)the offering of (U)the body of Jesus Christ (V)once for all.
11Every priest stands daily ministering and (W)offering time after time the same sacrifices, which (X)can never take away sins;
12but He, having offered one sacrifice (Y)for sins (Z)for all time, (AA)SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
13waiting from that time onward (AB)UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
14For by one offering He has (AC)perfected (AD)for all time those who are sanctified.

Because of this we are allowed more time to try to get it right.
Is slavery illegal today? Yes, but there are more slaves in the world today than anytime in history.
Even with improved laws of our morality.
I bolded it aggian so that you can't miss it.

 

[edge]

Just for fun.

 

[edge]

Words of wisdom