Split Thread [Ed] Personal experiences with gays

[dafydd]

I believe it is a refernce to the idea that there are no good toupees, since you can always tell when someone is wearing one. I've certainly never seen anyone wearing an undetectable toupee.

Or that Shatner is bi,but always acted the macho in Star Trek whilst wearing a syrup.

 

[Quad4_72]

I think at this point it is necessary to ask how exactly you go bout identifying a redneck...



Now you're just playing silly buggers with my blood pressure, right?

Yes, some gay people are easy to pick out. You might still be wrong about some of the people you think are gay. But more importantly: You will miss a lot of gay people and think they are straight.




No, I cannot imagine that!

What I can imagine is that people there would go to quite some lengths to hide their homosexuality, though. But assuming that a more or less fixed percentage of people just gets born gay (or ends up gay independent of social or other controllable factors, if you prefer), then the rate of gays in Utah would not be much different from everywhere else. (Slightly lower if gays decided to leave there given the chance.)





No! You could pick out *some* of them. But you have no reason to assume that those are somehow representative of the whole group of gays in the area.

You're displaying a mix of Affirming the Consequent and Denying the Antecedent.

Let's grant you that if a person acts camp, they are gay.
It doesn't follow that someone not acting camp is not gay.

Let's grant you that if a person is straight, they will 'act' straight.
It doesn't follow that someone who acts straight is straight.



No. You certainly saw tons of gay men. You just didn't' recognize them as being gay. They were still there. Even on the military bases.

I think it's necessary you guys start justifying some of your claims. Why should I have seen "tons" of gay men? Do you have statistics that prove there are indeed "tons" of gay men where I have lived?

 

[Quad4_72]

Sorry, but you would be incredibly easy to fool.

Your very words here should give you a clue as to why that is: Acting "masculine" isn't difficult for gays because they are men. They don't need to put on an elaborate show to fool you, they just need to not be camp. (and possibly look after a girl every once in a while.

Again: I am often mistakenly thought of as gay. Trust me: I am not and I am not putting any effort in appearing that way, either. If it's possible to "act gay" by accident, how difficult can it be to act straight on purpose - especially if the base assumption is in your favor?

I see what you're saying, but my knowledge of the people in my sample goes beyond just being a mere acquaintance. I know their personal lives, and all of them have been interested in women. Like I said, perhaps they are putting on a show, but shouldn't I have met at least one that was open about being gay but yet masculine as well?

 

[dafydd]

I see what you're saying, but my knowledge of the people in my sample goes beyond just being a mere acquaintance. I know their personal lives, and all of them have been interested in women. Like I said, perhaps they are putting on a show, but shouldn't I have met at least one that was open about being gay but yet masculine as well?

In how many parts of the world have you lived in?

 

[Quad4_72]

You really don't understand the concept of sampling, do you?

I have a large sample of people known to be gay. In that sample, I observe that more are masculine than feminine. I can thereby use that as evidence for a theory that most gay men are not feminine.

You have a sample of people you don't know the sexuality of. You observe that some of them are feminine. You conclude that the feminine ones are gay, and that therefore most gay men are feminine.

Do you really not see the difference there?

But what about the other sample in which I know personally hundreds of men who act masculine and are straight, with not a single one of them being gay?

 

[dafydd]

I see what you're saying, but my knowledge of the people in my sample goes beyond just being a mere acquaintance. I know their personal lives, and all of them have been interested in women. Like I said, perhaps they are putting on a show, but shouldn't I have met at least one that was open about being gay but yet masculine as well?

How many times? You have met at least one but you didn't know. Who cares anyway? What people get up to in bed is their business. I am not interested. Why are you?

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Split from Are most homosexuals atheists?

Posted By: arthwollipot

Full blown, meaning openly gay and acting extremely feminine. Though Iraqis act feminine as it is. Half blown as you would say would probably refer to someone who is still in the closet and doesn't act quite as feminine.

So are you saying Ian McKellen is not gay?

 

[dafydd]

But what about the other sample in which I know personally hundreds of men who act masculine and are straight, with not a single one of them being gay?

You don't know that,and given your attitude and the loony religious mores of the southern states I'm not surprised. At least one of them was bi.

 

[Quad4_72]

How do you define "masculine"? Most gay people I've met are pretty neutral. You wouldn't guess that they're gay by their behavior, but you're not reallly surprised when you find out they are.

Interesting. So in your personal experience, you have found that there are indeed some indicators of gay men, and that they do act a bit differently then straight men, otherwise, you would be surprised when you found out they were gay.

 

[dafydd]

So are you saying Ian McKellen is not gay?

I didn't find that out until last year. Surprising,given that McKellen always flounces around acting in an outrageously feminine manner as all gays do.

 

[Quad4_72]

People still cannot be openly gay in the military, though.

And, like I said, your stance on the issue may easily be mistaken for a homophobic one, and in the army, people cannot take the risk to give you the benefit of the doubt.

So: No. That they are there doesn't mean you'd be able to spot them. Add to that your method of spotting gays is unreliable and restrictive at best.

"Openly gay" doesn't mean they will tell you or wear any sighs or stickers or whatever. IT just means they are not actively hiding it. (Again, I am not actively hiding my heterosexuality, either. And yet, people manage to assume I'm gay.)

You know, I have not been in the military my entire life...I have much more experience interacting with people outside of the military then I do int he military.

 

[Rasmus]

I see what you're saying, but my knowledge of the people in my sample goes beyond just being a mere acquaintance. I know their personal lives, and all of them have been interested in women.

The usual question: How do you know this?

And for each of the answers you give for each of these men: How hard would it be to fake that?

Marriage? Yes, not exactly easy to fake.
Looking after a girl and observing how hot she is? Easy.

Just never making any statements that would give away you're gay and rely on everyone assuming that you're one of the 90% straight people and further rely that nobody actually keeps personal statistics on who said which girl was hot: It couldn't be easier.

For each of the people that you know we're talking about, could you *really* give us a precise description of the thing they did that makes you so certain they aren't gay?

Like I said, perhaps they are putting on a show, but shouldn't I have met at least one that was open about being gay but yet masculine as well?

Once again: There is a very strong incentive in the military to not come out as gay: It might cost you your job. So, no, you wouldn't necessarily have met them because there would indeed be fewer openly gay people.

And, no, there is no need to put on a show to pass as straight. People will assume that you are straight to begin with, and as long as you're not doing anything to contradict that expression, that is all that is needed.

 

[Quad4_72]

Indeed.





You just aren't getting it.

Behaved/behaving

 

[Alan]

But what about the other sample in which I know personally hundreds of men who act masculine and are straight, with not a single one of them being gay?

Ugh. It's just not getting through.

You are using your military anecdotes.

You are in an organisation that is as a matter of policy still formally antagonistic towards homosexuality. People are required to not disclose their orientation if they are not heterosexual. Your anecdotes are therefore the result of skewed data.

 

[Quad4_72]

Regarding the anal lube that one of his men had,I have a tube of it here and I'm not gay.

Yes I have a tube of anal lube back home as well. But in the case of this particular private, a barracks inspection was done early in the morning, and a dude was found still asleep in his bed with an open tube of anal lube right next to the night stand.

 

[dafydd]

Behaved/behaving

????

 

[Tatyana]

My google-fu is weak today. Care to let me know what this is?

'I can always tell when someone is wearing a toupee', and of course, you can when the toupee is obvious.

More recently it has become 'I can always tell when someone has false breasts', and of course, Quad is saying 'I can always tell when someone is gay because they are effeminate'.

 

[Darat]

You know, I have not been in the military my entire life...I have much more experience interacting with people outside of the military then I do int he military.

For me it is not your experiences but your reasoning and conclusions that are coming under scrutiny.

I think The Don summed it up:

"

...snip... Quad4_72 refuses to consider that the reason all the gay people he has spotted exhibit stereotypical behaviour is because he is applying a stereotype to identify them.

Don't you see that because of how you go about identifying people as gay it is confirmation bias? You've set up a section criteria that means generally you will only identify people that match your stereotype as gay, so if a man is not camp then you will not consider that he is gay even though he could be?

 

[Rasmus]

You know, I have not been in the military my entire life...I have much more experience interacting with people outside of the military then I do int he military.

So tell me why any of these people would outright tell you that they were gay.

And, as above, can you really - for each of them - detail the instances of their behavior that makes you so sure they are straight?

Short of being told, how can you tell if someone is gay or straight? Why would you assume this method is so reliable?

What is it that should make a gay person think it would be okay and safe to let you know that they are gay?

 

[dafydd]

For me it is not your experiences but your reasoning and conclusions that are coming under scrutiny.

I think The Don summed it up:

"

Don't you see that because of how you go about identifying people as gay it is confirmation bias? You've set up a section criteria that means generally you will only identify people that match your stereotype as gay, so if a man is not camp then you will not consider that he is gay even though he could be?

Exactly. If we say that enough he might get it. Or shall we put in the form of an order?