conspiracy psychology debunked

[dommyboysinjapan]

Joey McGee,

Something you'll probably never understand about 9/11 truth, the reason that the debunkers are usually the only ones who seriously engage you is that everyone else hates your guts too much to care. Skeptics often have an altruistic purpose to debunking. You have no respect for this or understanding of your current situation which amounts to you being in a cult and us trying to help you out of it.

Hmmmm, altruistic, huh? So all the dispersions, personal attacks, and attempts at every level to discredit not only the movement but the people therein in a condescending way is kind of a 'toughlove thing' right?

 

[dommyboysinjapan]

Justin39640,

Gage claims 9/11 pays him almost $80,000 a year. Plus he gets to travel the world and write it off. Blood money.

Nonsense. Do you have a link or is it more gut feeling like the 'conspiracy theorist psychology.?'

 

[beachnut]

beachnut,

Yeah, maybe, us 9/11 conspiracy theorists get paid a lot of money, you know from, um well you know the cash just rolls in! Tomorrow I'm going to buy a house!

Gage beat you to the gravy train. You are too late, you seem to be a follower, unable to grasp the lack of evidence for your claims made up for you by people who can't figure out 911 given the answers.

Many 911 movement people are trying to make money. Gage, DRG, and more. Gage asks for donations, a beggar at the corner of the internet, fooling those who refuse to take the time to research 911 and think for themselves. DRG, takes hearsay and lies and sells books, usually found in the political section of the Library, and pure fiction, save the part the hearsay and lies come from real people.

You are gullible follower, unable to check the facts and evidence for some unknown reason.

Justin39640,



Nonsense. Do you have a link or is it more gut feeling like the 'conspiracy theorist psychology.?'

Gage makes 70k and perks a year, you have to file your money stuff. Gage is making money spreading lies, you are paying your service provider to spread lies, or support them. The conspiracy on 911 are the snake-oil salesmen, like Gage.

 

[dommyboysinjapan]

Kid Eager,

The evidence can't substantiate the 9/11 conspiracy claims, so we now have to "argue the psychology"????

Actually, I'd say that your side can't logically debate the evidence so you have to fake the psychology (with non-psychology.) sad.

 

[beachnut]

Joey McGee,



Hmmmm, altruistic, huh? So all the dispersions, personal attacks, and attempts at every level to discredit not only the movement but the people therein in a condescending way is kind of a 'toughlove thing' right?

Where is 911 truth's evidence to support their delusions? Do you have it? No one in 911 truth has any evidence, and you are defending them with?

Jones is very personable, but he made up the lie about thermite causing the WTC to collapse. It took him 4 years to make it up, and you took how long to fall for his lie?

Got some evidence? When will you present it to save 911 truth from the pit of ignorance? Soon?

 

[slojoe]

There have been several political scientists, authors, and skeptics who have formulated their own opinions as to why significant percentages of the American and international public give creedence to conspiracy theories.

I have looked around on the internet and could not find any real psychological studies that were conducted by real psychologists with a controlled sample group nor could I find any real identifiable psychosis in the DSM4TR. (the recognized medical book of psychology)that specifically deals with conspiracy theory (not just general depression or feelings of paranoia which is not the same.)

Before I changed my major in university to sociology I had planned on becoming a psychologist and had taken several psychology classes where we learned about real psychology including real psychyological studies that were conducted in controlled samples that tested different aspects of human cognition and clinical pathology. To date, the only person that I have ever seen online that refers to real psychology and real studies therein to express opinions about 9/11 is Laurie Manwell. She currently holds a Bachelor of Science in both biology and psychology. She is currently working toward her PHD in psychology and when she discusses the psychology of 9/11 she refers to real studies not speculation that is favorable to the political elite.

This is a profile of who she is along with her credentials:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/laurie-manwell/a/9a1/a91

Please take the time to listen to some real psychological studies regarding social and political behaviour:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M-U27WMMfU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5LQo8Dqe-Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzYcuVOkbZ8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ztH1fRLcUY&feature=related

These studies are real and well documented. I would also like to add to her list of real psychology by including the Stanley Milgram study which studied the degree to which normal people could be made to comply due to the pressure of what they considered to be an authority figure. A summary of the study can be seen here:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xb8dmu_obedience-to-authority-stanley -milg_webcam

The above experiment was initially performed by doctor Stanley Milgram in 1963. The purpose of this study was to try and find out just how thousands of co-conspirators from such an advanced and cultured country such as Germany could comply to perform such horrific actions against Jewish citizens as well as other minorities at that time during the Holocaust. In the years after the Holocaust absolutely no credible researcher has ever tried to say that the Holocaust didn't happen because 1000s of people would have had to have known about it and the German government just wouldn't do these things to their own citizens (yes many of the victims during the Holocaust were German citizens that fell into certain minority groups). Yet this is the kind of rhetoric that we are confronted with today about 9/11.

With that in mind let's go through the psychology of conspiracy that is often suggested by defenders of the mainstream conspiracy theory concerning Al Qaeda.

1)Alternative 9/11 conspiracy theorists are crazy or suffer from some sort of paranoid or delusional mindset. (It is inferred here that people who accept the 9/11 Commission report's conspiracy theory are rational and sane.)
2) People believe in a 9/11 alternative conspiracy because they can't perceive that a smaller, weaker, less important actor could inflict such damage or they cannot accept that such a large tragedy could have such a baseless motive so they invent grandiose reasons and conspirators.
3) People believe in a 9/11 alternative conspiracy because they find it more comforting to believe it was their own government than Islamic terrorists.
4) People believe in a 9/11 alternative theory as a means to promote some kind of agenda like making money on books or videos.
5) People believe in a 9/11 alternative theory as a product of political party affiliation, anti American sentiment, anti government sentiment, anti Semitic sentiment, or a disdain for the Bush administration.

In every one of these speculations that I commonly see over and over again in all kinds of debunking forums and 9/11 documentaries and books and media from History Channel, Discovery Channel, to JREF, and the debunking sites (etc.), every single one of these claims is brought forward by skeptics, authors and political scientists but there is no reference at all to any solid psychological studies. NONE! ZIP! ZILCH!

Let me EASILY debunk all 5 of the above points by saying this: If any of these "psychological theories" carry any weight whatsoever, then:

1) Why are there no psychological studies to support these theories?
2) Why is it that almost all of the top members and proponents of the 9/11 Truth Movement started out by first believing the mainstream version of 9/11? Most of them did for the first few years until they researched the evidence and then changed their minds. This applies to Dr. Steven Jones, Dr. David Ray Griffin, Jesse Ventura, and virtually all of them! If there is any merit to the above 5 speculations then one would expect they would immediately adopt their conspiratorial views for the reasons that are espoused (pathology, anti Americanism, profit, etc.)
3) The third one has actually been espoused in a number of places including the "History channel documentary: The 9/11 Conspiracy Theories Fact or Fiction." Think about how incredibly stupid this theory really is! It is more comforting to think ones own government did this than to think it was some outside terrorist group??? Are you kidding me????
4) Why has there never been any medical or psychological diagnosis of people who support 9/11 conspiracy theories if they suffer from any kind of clinical disorder? What basis does anyone have to label them as crazy in the absence of any clinical evidence whatsoever?

I think the so called 9/11 skeptic community that defends the mainstream narrative by using pseudo scientific psychology to push its propagandistic agenda only serves to discedit their own skepticism. It is crystal clear for the above four reasons that one cannot pass off the aforementioned five speculations as true psychology.

Wouldn't it be simpler to "debunk" these points as ad hominem arguments? Why Truthers believe what they believe has no bearing on the validity of their beliefs.

However, the reasoning they have provided in support of those beliefs has been unconvincing in light of the evidence, and that does have relevance to the validity of those beliefs.

No psychology is required.

 

[Joey McGee]

Joey McGee,



Hmmmm, altruistic, huh? So all the dispersions, personal attacks, and attempts at every level to discredit not only the movement but the people therein in a condescending way is kind of a 'toughlove thing' right?

You know damn well how disgusting some of the truth movement is, calling victim's families liars in regards to cell phone calls, harassing people like Jane Standley, Jew hate, calling people shills and sheep and all of that crap.

I was talking about the people that get put into documentaries like the ones you are watching, such as Shermer. Any other non-woo board than the JREF, what happens when you post stuff like this? Yeah exactly, so have some respect. And you people generally have none, which is why so many people hate you.

 

[dommyboysinjapan]

beachnut,

You are gullible follower, unable to check the facts and evidence for some unknown reason.

Wow, an amazing thing just happened! Your personal attack just magically made the pseudo-psychology of your side appear so much more official! (not)

Gage makes 70k and perks a year, you have to file your money stuff.

The other guy said 80! Maybe your auditors aren't all seeing eye to eye. You guys are funny thinking that Gage can make more money with 9/11 conspiracy theory than he can make by sucking up to the establishment or by Ohhhhhhh, paying more attention to his profession as an architect! LOL

 

[dropzone]

....

Just whom is it who is your collegiate mentor? Does he or she realize you are promulgating this patent nonsense? If so, do his or her superiors realize what their inferiors do: Based on raw FACTS, somebody making these claims, or those who let them, should justifiably, be out of a job. And a scholarship. There is only so much room for STOOPID in academia.

Dude, your claims are baseless. Continuing to make them makes you look like an idiot with no knowledge of, well, pretty much ANYTHING technical. I started out as an English major, yet I still dismiss you.

 

[Justin39640]

Justin39640,



Nonsense. Do you have a link or is it more gut feeling like the 'conspiracy theorist psychology.?'

Yeah, his non-profit's tax returns are public record. They've been discussed to death here. At this point, I'm shocked you didn't know that.

He's a *********** scam artist. Did you buy in? (tee hee )

 

[beachnut]

beachnut,

Wow, an amazing thing just happened! Your personal attack just magically made the pseudo-psychology of your side appear so much more official! (not)

The other guy said 80! Maybe your auditors aren't all seeing eye to eye. You guys are funny thinking that Gage can make more money with 9/11 conspiracy theory than he can make by sucking up to the establishment or by Ohhhhhhh, paying more attention to his profession as an architect! LOL

Gage is making money, you are making up nonsense. Gage wins. Over 70k plus perks, and you have no knowledge of your own movements money; are you unable to do research, or wish to remain in the dark on 911 issues and the fact Gage is spreading lies so he can make money?

...
Actually, I'd say that your side can't logically debate the evidence so you have to fake the psychology (with non-psychology.) sad.

This was funny.

R.Mackey,

Your premise is incorrect. NIST did retain steel from various places in the Towers. Please open NCSTAR1-3, the metallurgical survey and parts inventory, and take a quick look at Tables 5-1 and 5-2. There you will see core column pieces from Floor 12 to 106, and perimeter sections from Floor 12 to 104. NIST did concentrate on the impact zone, but this should be obvious.

I checked out the pages you described. Sure enough, you were absolutely correct. I was quite surprised because I had read in many places online that they had saved metal only at or near the impact zones. According to the Tables from NIST this is simply untrue.

Congratulations you have successfully debunked this misconception that I had. You are now one for one and batting 1000.

I have quite a few other very serious questions that would have to have good explanations as well before I changed my mind though.

...
Actually, I'd say that your side can't logically debate the evidence so you have to fake the psychology (with non-psychology.) sad.

Projection?
All your 911 truth based claims will fail when you gain knowledge. over 9 years, better pick up the pace

 

[TJM]

Ohhhhhhh, paying more attention to his profession as an architect! LOL

Unemployed architect, but anyway....

 

[Brainster]

There are certainly numerous Truthers who've been institutionalized:

Claire Swinney:

I was wrongly diagnosed as delusional by the psychiatric staff of Ward 7 at Northland Base Hospital in Whangarei and held hospital picagainst my will for 11 days in mid-2006, because I maintained the attacks of 9/11 were orchestrated by criminal elements inside the US Administration.

Michael Cook:

Alfons interviews Michael Cook: Michael Cook accused George Bush of being complicit in the 9/11 attacks, he is now being incarcerated for psychology evaluation by the federal government.

Of course, Sean Fitzgerald used to set the standard for Truther nutters by killing his father (who he thought was the devil):


Before Jared Loughner came along:

Loughner's favorites included little-known conspiracy theory documentaries such as "Zeitgeist" and "Loose Change" as well as bigger studio productions with cult followings and themes of brainwashing, science fiction and altered states of consciousness, including "Donnie Darko" and "A Scanner Darkly."

Not to mention many others such as Rosalee Grable (the Web Fairy):

 

[dommyboysinjapan]

Joey McGee,

you know damn well how disgusting some of the truth movement is, calling victim's families liars in regards to cell phone calls, harassing people like Jane Standley, Jew hate, calling people shills and sheep and all of that crap.

No-one in the movement has suggested that the victim's families are liars (that i know of). It has been suggested by DRG, Kee Dewdney and others that perhaps these families were lied to. They base their suggestions on phone call anomalies.

Sometimes members are overbearing and indeed disrespectful to Standley, Combs, Marr, and others. It is a very large movement as you are aware and the more disrespectful actions are the ones that are easiest to remember. Not that I condone it. I don't. You all are working very hard to promote what you believe is the truth. Me too. Actually I'm working hard to learn more things. I am open to inmformation you give me. I see no need to be uncivil.

It is a myth that 9/11 Truthers are anti-Semitic, anti-American, anti-government, anti-establishment, anti-Bush or anti-anything. We are good people just trying to seek credible answers to a complex event (that frankly seems to have a lot of problems with regards to a coherent narrative.)

I don't condone any name calling of any kind because I think it is childish and defeats the purpose of gathering information. It is also cruel. I am not a cruel person but I can't speak for everyone in the movement. They get called all kinds of names and it is human nature to recipricate such behaviour.

 

[ProBonoShill]

ProBonoShill,



If you 'don't care about any of that' then why respond, "bro?"

Nowhere did I state I didn't care, I posed a question: WHY should I care?

Presumably you're here for a reason, but you haven't explained your motive.

If it's to convince the skeptics here at JREF that 9/11 was an inside jobby job, the psychology of truthers is irrelevant.

 

[ProBonoShill]

Kid Eager,



Actually, I'd say that your side can't logically debate the evidence so you have to fake the psychology (with non-psychology.) sad.

Great, so what's your side?

Do you have a theory concerning the events of 9/11?

Care to share it with the rest of us?

 

[Orphia Nay]

No-one here is saying 9/11 Truth is a mental illness.

Sure their ideas are crazy. But most of the believers function in a normal way in their daily life. They just say insane things. This is not the same thing as saying 9/11 Truth should be classified in the DSMIV. There are many kinds of truthers. LIHOP, mini-nukers, no-planers, CD proponents, Pentagon flyover, etc etc. The common denominator is only that they are wrong.

Truthers are "nuts" only in a colloquial way. Don't get all holier-than-thou and take this as armchair psychiatry. We've had numerous threads on this where we've agreed that diagnosis is best left to the professionals.

We think speculation is interesting, but we, at least, know we are speculating. Do you?

 

[Joey McGee]

Joey McGee,

No-one in the movement has suggested that the victim's families are liars (that i know of). It has been suggested by DRG, Kee Dewdney and others that perhaps these families were lied to. They base their suggestions on phone call anomalies.

Ted Olson has been accused of lying about his wife, people even criticized him for getting married not too long after. Google it, there are more examples IIRC but the forum's search function is broken atm.

Sometimes members are overbearing and indeed disrespectful to Standley, Combs, Marr, and others. It is a very large movement as you are aware and the more disrespectful actions are the ones that are easiest to remember. Not that I condone it. I don't. You all are working very hard to promote what you believe is the truth.

I think what most people here are working very hard for is education in science and critical thinking. 9/11 conspiracies should be debunked because a) they have a negative effect on socieity b) they have a negative effect on people.

Me too. Actually I'm working hard to learn more things. I am open to inmformation you give me. I see no need to be uncivil.

Really! Well besides the fact that you shouldn't be taking this subject lightly, and it's a giant cop-out to say "Hey, just asking questions dude!" when you clearly already have your mind made up about the big picture, this is an uncivil dialog. I used to have questions about this conspiracy theory, over 5 years ago. So I should have a tolerance for other people believing it, but I don't. It isn't something that should be tolerated. If my brother believed in this stuff, we would have serious problems because of that. Truthers are desperate for respect and cilvility, it's human nature, and I understand but you know what? You don't deserve it. You don't deserve to be treated like you are doing something respectful because you are not. You have to go it alone out there in wild world of conspiracy theories, I'm not going to include you in the realm of acceptable people because you are doing something that is very stupid and very bad. You should be thankful that a group of people care enough to try and help.

It is a myth that 9/11 Truthers are anti-Semitic, anti-American, anti-government, anti-establishment, anti-Bush or anti-anything.

This is just silly. There are many truthers who are all of these things, no one seriously says that they are all like this. So you are building a strawman. You know damn well that there are large groups of truthers who fit neatly into each other these categories. I know many personally. Good for you if you're not part of this mass.

We are good people just trying to seek credible answers to a complex event (that frankly seems to have a lot of problems with regards to a coherent narrative.)

These answers have already been given, you just don't understand them. So people are trying to help you.

I don't condone any name calling of any kind because I think it is childish and defeats the purpose of gathering information. It is also cruel. I am not a cruel person but I can't speak for everyone in the movement. They get called all kinds of names and it is human nature to recipricate such behaviour.

Sometimes the truth needs to be said. No one should attack someone else for personal pleasure. But when the truthers are standing there, begging for respect, begging for acceptance, we're supposed to say, ok buddy, let's be friends and be real nice about this? Sorry, it's human nature to reciprocate respect when it is deserved. You start making sense and doing your due diligence, following facts instead of your intuitions and interpretations, and people will not attack you, generally. This isn't a friendly talk about the existence of God this is poisonous, disgusting, mind-altering dialog.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

No-one in the movement has suggested that the victim's families are liars (that i know of).

You obviously don't know much (it comes with being a twoofer).


(Well ok, technically the makers of "loose Change" said that the father of an 11 year old boy who died in the attacks is a liar and a murderer of his own son. Not just a liar.)

You came to the right place though. Here, we know all the dirty hidden stuff that the truth movement doesn't want you to know (mass murderers, child pornographers, nazis, guys who beat up girls in wheelchairs, etc...).

 

[TJM]

You obviously don't know much (it comes with being a twoofer).


(Well ok, technically the makers of "loose Change" said that the father of an 11 year old boy who died in the attacks is a liar and a murderer of his own son. Not just a liar.)

Pffffft. That's nothing.



Try that one on for size.