Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[MG1962]

Look at the numbers Germany is said to have caused including its own losses. It certainly didn't have the resources or the soldiers to perform the Holocaust in tandem and even less likely as they were LOSING the war.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Really? And you know this how. They clearly had plenty of resources because it was the only major combatant NOT to use women in the work force at any stage of the war

 

[dafydd]

Really? And you know this how. They clearly had plenty of resources because it was the only major combatant NOT to use women in the work force at any stage of the war

His ignorance really is appalling. Funny though.

 

[dafydd]

While you're pontificating tell us how people manage to survive multiple "death" camps. I've read 100s of accounts and 4 or 5 different camps and return stays were not uncommon. I've read of 9 and more "death" camps being survived by one person.

Why were the camps there in the first place,Nazi boy?

 

[Corsair 115]

It [Germany] certainly didn't have the resources or the soldiers to perform the Holocaust in tandem and even less likely as they were LOSING the war.

The reason it was losing the war is due largely to the Reich's top leadership, starting with Hitler and working down from there. While on a tactical level the German military was often exemplary, at the strategic level its leadership left much to be desired. Hitler made numerous decisions which aided the Allied cause; many of the underlings were no better. Göring, for example, was a disaster as head of the Luftwaffe.

 

[dafydd]

The reason it was losing the war is due largely to the Reich's top leadership, starting with Hitler and working down from there. While on a tactical level the German military was often exemplary, at the strategic level its leadership left much to be desired. Hitler made numerous decisions which aided the Allied cause; many of the underlings were no better. Göring, for example, was a disaster as head of the Luftwaffe.

We're all lucky that Clayton's heroes were such a bunch of loonies.

 

[LemmyCaution]

His ignorance really is appalling. Funny though.

In fact, German resources, including manpower, were short during the war and especially as it progressed. By the end days, old men and boys were serving in combat, and desperate attempts were being made to move inmates and captives into forced labor jobs. But in at least two ways these shortages cut against Clayton Moore's vacuous hypotheticals.

First, we can add another 10 million+ people moved to MG1962's earlier list: these were many millions of forced laborers taken to the Reich to work for the war effort and fill the slots vacated by males in the armed forces.

Second, the details and documents which Clayton Moore explicitly waves away -- "Forget you and your smokescreen request for details" -- show that the Germans time and again confronted the dilemma of whether to keep Jews alive in order to have them work for Germany or to keep killing them. In the end, whilst maintaining some Jews temporarily as slave laborers in ghettos and camps, the Germans decided in favor of rapid liquidation of millions who might have helped them economically.

To take one example of the above, Kube, general commissar for Belorussia, wrote a report on 31 July 1942, which read in part, "the treatment of Jewry in White Russia [Belorussia] in view of the menace to the entire economy is an eminently political matter which therefore should be solved, too, not from the economic but from the political point of view." The report then went on to list cities and regions cleansed of Jews through liquidation actions as well as places in which "radical measures" (liquidations) were planned for the near future -- whether or not these liquidations of Jews included the murder of potential economic contributors.

This solution fit into the Nazi comprehension of the war the Germans were fighting, according to which the Jews were the hidden power behind both the English and Americans, on the one hand, and the Russians, on the other, and the war which the Jews had instigated would result in either the defeat and destruction of Germany or, as the Fuhrer said many times, the annihilation of the Jews of Europe. Again to take but one example, on New Year's 1943, Hitler declared, "the hope of international Jewry to be able to destroy through a new world war the German or other European peoples . . . would destroy not the German people but itself. . . . [T]his race is the main cause of this war. . . . The alliance of the arch-capitalist states of the West, or even more so of America, with the mendacious mock-socialist regime of bolshevism is conceivable only because leadership in both the cases lies in the hand of international Jewry. . . ." To which Goebbels added, "Don't forget, it is the Jew who fights against us."

With this view of the world war, that it was caused by the Jews seeking world domination and that the Jews were Germany's most demonic and lethal enemy, it should not be surprising that the Nazi leadership would commit resources to elimination of the Jews of Europe as part of, not in opposition to, fighting the war as they saw it. Resources committed to the destruction of the Jews were, in the National Socialist conception of things, resources also helping to win the war -- and, as it was increasingly being lost to the Allied powers, at least complete the destruction of the Jewish enemy.

 

[Pacal]

Dogzilla said:

Germans must be magic. That's probably why so many people hate them.

Your not so subtle implication is that the people here who accept that the Holocaust happened are German haters. Please provide the evidence that anyone here has indicated hatred of Germans. Otherwise we can dismiss your statement as a agit-prop lie.

 

[Saggy]

Please provide the evidence that anyone here has indicated hatred of Germans. OtherwisIe we can dismiss your statement as a agit-prop lie.

It's not hatred of Germans only, it's hated of non-Jews, but maybe hatred is not the correct word, contempt might be better. As for evidence, you can go to the source, the Torah or the Talmud, or if you want the audio version (recommended) just check out Rabbi Manis Friedman ....

http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/300704/jewish/The-Jew-and-the-Non-Jew.htm

The good news for us goyim is that the Jews consider us one step above farm animals.

 

[Saggy]

With this view of the world war, that it was caused by the Jews seeking world domination and that the Jews were Germany's most demonic and lethal enemy, it should not be surprising that the Nazi leadership would commit resources to elimination of the Jews of Europe as part of, not in opposition to, fighting the war as they saw it.

If they had wanted to kill them they would have lined them up and shot them in the back of the head, the way the NKVD did the Poles at Katyn and the Ukrainians at Vinnitsa. Quicker, simpler, and more effective.

 

[Walter Ego]

Dogzilla said:

Germans must be magic. That's probably why so many people hate them.

Your not so subtle implication is that the people here who accept that the Holocaust happened are German haters. Please provide the evidence that anyone here has indicated hatred of Germans. Otherwise we can dismiss your statement as a agit-prop lie.

What group of "Germans" is dog boy taking about? Any German alive today under the age of 65 wouldn't have even been around and breathing during the Nazi era and any German born after, say, 1930 could hardly be held culpable for the crimes and atrocities of the Third Reich. So you'd have to be over 80 to even be one of those "bad" Germans. Or does he believe German, past, present and future = Nazi?

These deniers really need to pick up a history book. I'd recommended Richard J Evan's three volume history of the Third Reich written for the general reader. If reading is too much for them there are audiobook versions of Evan's trilogy available.

 

[dafydd]

Dogzilla said:



Your not so subtle implication is that the people here who accept that the Holocaust happened are German haters. Please provide the evidence that anyone here has indicated hatred of Germans. Otherwise we can dismiss your statement as a agit-prop lie.

I have told Dogzilla about ten times that I do not hate Germans,but he appears to be too stupid to understand. I suppose you have to be dim to believe the Nazi crap.

 

[tsig]

Your version of the Holocaust demands the Germans directly managed the movement, supervision, etc. of 10 to 20 million or more noncombatants in Germany, Poland, and much of Europe while fighting WWII on at least three fronts and at sea. Forget you and your smokescreen request for details.

The Germans couldn't run railways?

 

[little grey rabbit]

"Krema Denial holds that in Moscow there existed a Topf letter (and other Nazi era documents) generating factory, where counterfeits could be produced at will to cover perceived gaps in the historical narrative."

Its a fair criticism, I don't really know where it is located. Just reading the history of the Amber Room made it clear there is excellent abilitity in counterfeiting documents in Germany also.

However, the fact that that Topf letter is counterfeit is not in doubt. There is no conceivable path for it to get to the Terezin archive. The person who is alleged to have written this letter gave testimony to SMERSH that he had been unable to evacuate the Auschwitz ovens in time and the ovens themselves have never been found.

 

[LemmyCaution]

If they had wanted to kill them they would have lined them up and shot them in the back of the head, the way the NKVD did the Poles at Katyn and the Ukrainians at Vinnitsa. Quicker, simpler, and more effective.

They did that. Of course.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject...insatzgruppen action in the Soviet Union.html

 

[LemmyCaution]

". . . counterfeits could be produced at will to cover perceived gaps in the historical narrative."

Its a fair criticism, I don't really know where it is located.

Well, wherever they worked and whoever they were, they also left some pretty big gaps, eh. Must have been too busy tarting up OSR 24 to worry about concocting trivial stuff like Hitler's order to EGs, AR camp records, Birkenau killed tallies, a Hitler order for the murder of all of Europe's Jews, etc.

 

[LemmyCaution]

. . . in Moscow there existed a . . . factory, where counterfeits could be produced at will . . .

So the notorious scholar Wilfried Heink has articulated the concept of "real evidence," which is the only evidence that can be accepted into historical discussion. In Heink's view, as you know, the specific evidence qualifying as real is "physical evidence." In the light of the notorious Heink's dictum, what is the physical evidence for this forgery factory? And where are samples of orders given for specific counterfeits, names of officials and forgers working this factory, chain of command and reporting relationships, address of facilities, lists of equipment and supplies, budget and payroll information, other specifics on documents forged and smuggled into archives . . . ? Or is this factory for counterfeiting more like the resettlement "thesis": not a lick of positive evidence for its existence but a burning need for you to invent it to cover up the poverty of your evidence, thought, and presentation?

 

[LemmyCaution]

What group of "Germans" is dog boy taking about? Any German alive today under the age of 65 wouldn't have even been around and breathing during the Nazi era and any German born after, say, 1930 could hardly be held culpable for the crimes and atrocities of the Third Reich. So you'd have to be over 80 to even be one of those "bad" Germans. Or does he believe German, past, present and future = Nazi?

Au contraire, I think it is deniers in fact who despise the Germans and have contempt for them on account of their having come some ways to grips with their troubled history, for their placid acceptance of an occupation regime which caters to the Zionists, and for the general indolence and sloth of the citizenry in turning their backs on National Socialism.

 

[Walter Ego]

Au contraire, I think it is deniers in fact who despise the Germans and have contempt for them on account of their having come some ways to grips with their troubled history, for their placid acceptance of an occupation regime which caters to the Zionists, and for the general indolence and sloth of the citizenry in turning their backs on National Socialism.

Possibly true, but I was talking about the silly accusation that any one who believes in the historical truth of the Holocaust or recognizes the criminal aspects of the Nazi regime (and, we must admit, the complicity of a large part of the German population in supporting that regime) must therefore "hate" Germans. That generation of Germans is largely gone and that Germany no longer exists.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Possibly true, but I was talking about the silly accusation that any one who believes in the historical truth of the Holocaust or recognizes the criminal aspects of the Nazi regime (and, we must admit, the complicity of a large part of the German population in supporting that regime) must therefore "hate" Germans. That generation of Germans is largely gone and that Germany no longer exists.

Whoopsie, I meant the "au contraire" as an additional objection to the charge, not to your point, which I agree with.

 

[Nick Terry]

As to the second regarding Dr Terry, you might enjoy the following thread from some years back
http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/836/A-modest-counter-proposal-regarding-Treblinka?page=1

Notice how Dr Terry repeatedly refuses to state if believes that a GPR study would show mass earth disturbances at Treblinka and how he finally ducks out of an offer of an all expenses paid study by stating - completely accurately - that it would be bad for his career.

Oooh, bunny actually produced a source for once in his miserable life, and lo and behold, it doesn't say quite what he thinks it does.

Actually I stated that it would not be a career-advancer to have "involvement with an internet troll on an unauthorised investigation". This is quite a different statement to the one you claim above, where you pretend that I made a blanket refusal for any GPR research. On the contrary, I simply refused any involvement with you - an anonymous internet troll, who had not, and still has not, demonstrated a thorough knowledge of the written sources for Treblinka.

Your claim that I refused to state if I believed a GPR study would show earth disturbances at Treblinka is quite false, too. You claimed repeatedly things like this:

But Dr Nick Terry still does not believe there is mass soil disturbances at Treblinka.

to which I replied

On the contrary, I know this from reading Lukasiewicz's report, evidence which is corroborated by a thousand other indicators. The abstract possibility that there may not be mass soil disturbances is insignificant when compared to the overwhelming probability that there are. Thus, I see no point in wasting my time on confirming the obvious, especially when archaeological investigations have RE-confirmed the obvious for Sobibor and Belzec.

earlier in that thread I also stated in response to a similar trollish attempt to put words in my mouth that

"Mass soil disturbances" were reported by multiple accounts postwar, not least by Lukasewicz and his investigators but also subsequently. The question is surely why does LS not accept these accounts, especially when they are corroborated by more than 100 other witness statements from among camp staff and survivors. The next question is why LS thinks that one should skip a visit to AGK when seeking to satisfy his curiosity over this issue.

Your claim then was that I did not "believe" there were mass soil disturbances at Treblinka. I replied that I knew there were, based on specific evidence. You then failed to demonstrate why this evidence should be discarded in its entirety. So the conversation stopped.