Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Draca]

The driers (two) are stored on the far end of the counter in the outer room of the split bathroom and the outlet and mirror are over by the washing machine. These are seen in the crime scene video of Nov. 2nd at 15:11.

Photo of large bathroom:
http://www.facebook.com/editphoto.p...01286599.45660.106344459390034&type=1&theater

 

[Kaosium]

Here's an article from Andrea Vogt where she mentions Rudy Guede's story:

"In Guede's version, he then put on the headphones to his iPod and listened to three songs while on the toilet, but heard an argument escalating. He came out of the bathroom with his pants partly undone and was confronted by a knife-wielding Italian man. The two scuffled, he maintains, then the Italian fled after cutting him in the right palm and saying "black man found, black man guilty."

Guede then claims he saw Kercher bleeding heavily on the floor in her room and tried to save her, but panicked, thinking he would be framed for the crime. He fled and later that night went to a disco. He was found in Germany more than two weeks later and arrested, then extradited to Italy."

Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/arti...l-say-Knox-was-there-899548.php#ixzz1JqBcnEa3


Police photo of cut:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/f...34244483.15396.106344459390034&type=1&theater

Wow! Draca delivers! One mention of it, and up it pops!

Let's see if this works: I'd just love to see the tape of that November 5th/6th interrogation....


Regarding your picture, I'm having trouble seeing the cuts, it may be my monitor though. I'm assuming I should be looking where the little yellow arrows are pointing, and on the top one I see what looks to be a paper cut healing, and on the bottom just a discoloration. So these weren't massive wounds in any case, and might not have even bled much.

 

[Draca]

Rudy Guede small bathroom twice

Do we know for sure that Rudy said he went into the bathroom for the towels? I, too, have always thought there should have been more evidence of Rudy in the bathroom.

Yes. He says he goes to the bathroom twice.

His story from Micheli Report:
GUEDE'S ALIBI CONTINUED, MEREDITH'S LAST WORDS
Back in the room of M.[Meredith Kercher], who described not in disorder, she realized that she was bleeding from the neck and shoulder all "wet" was wearing jeans and a white wool sweater with her breasts covered. The G.[Rudy Guede] Then he tried to help rescue, taking a towel from the bathroom, but it proved too small and left immediately soaked in blood, so he took another and resume to dab the wound at this juncture

 

[Draca]

Wow! Draca delivers! One mention of it, and up it pops!

Let's see if this works: I'd just love to see the tape of that November 5th/6th interrogation....

Funny! Now THAT would be a trick.

Regarding your picture, I'm having trouble seeing the cuts, it may be my monitor though. I'm assuming I should be looking where the little yellow arrows are pointing, and on the top one I see what looks to be a paper cut healing, and on the bottom just a discoloration. So these weren't massive wounds in any case, and might not have even bled much.

The photo is from Nov 20, 2007 - 19 days later! I think these were significant wounds to be sure! They would have been bleeding heavily right after the cut. His blood should be on anything he touched or grabbed after the cut - the blue jacket, bra, socks.....

Come on now - are we really surprised at this point that CSI PERUGIA likely missed his blood at the crime scene?

 

[Draca]

Frank Sfarzo comment on Italian Justice system

If the stories of police corruption are true.....

I didn't realize Italy had such a low free press rating, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. It seems like they don't deserve that though.

Here's a comment that Frank Sfarzo recently made about how we don't comprehend just how bad their justice system really is:

April 16, 2011 2:42 PM
Frank said...
Hahahahaah, you don't have any idea how things work here.
Here there are no rules, no hierarchy... Nobody is in charge. Anyone does what they want.

What is slapping a girl? We had people flying from the windows in police stations here...

Omg, they missed the bra clasp... What is missing a little piece of bra? We had the hair of the son of Annamaria Franzoni (killed in Cogne in 2006) ending up on the nightrobe of Alberica Filo della Torre (killed in Rome in 1991)!

The disasters you have seen in this case are nothing compared to what we here see everyday. This is the case in which they worked better!

Nobody is in charge. Whoever screams the loudest is the pack leader.

Everyone here knows what happened to knife and clasp.
But the great experts who want to teach the case to Italians, blame the science!....

Great! Believe the fairy tales. Stay with the pack.

I stay with the science.

 

[Kaosium]

Funny! Now THAT would be a trick.

A man can dream!

You know what's funny, I did have a dream about this, kinda, it turned out Dan-O had it, he'd had it all along, he just needed :::something that only made sense in the dream and I forget::: before he could reveal it. He was suspicious of me, thought I was a NSA agent! I had to go to Perugia for some reason, and was resisting because it 'wasn't time.'

Gawd I'd love to see that tape.

The photo is from Nov 20, 2007 - 19 days later! I think these were significant wounds to be sure! They would have been bleeding heavily right after the cut. His blood should be on anything he touched or grabbed after the cut - the blue jacket, bra, socks.....

Come on now - are we really surprised at this point that CSI PERUGIA likely missed his blood at the crime scene?

No, that's not it, I just can't see it well on my monitor. Perhaps I should clean it!

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Thanks for the photo Draca. Love your work.

That doesn't look anything like a palm though, so I guess Vogt got that wrong or made it up. That's clearly a cut on a finger. My entirely non-expert guess would be that it's consistent with Rudy holding a small knife in his hand and it slipping when he stabbed someone. It does indeed look like it was quite deep and based on a vaguely similar injury I did to myself with a kitchen knife earlier this year I'm sure it would indeed have bled freely after a few seconds.

It is indeed counterintuitive that none of Rudy's blood was found anywhere if he had an injury like that. I can only guess he wrapped his hand in a hankie or something while running from the murder room to the bathroom.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I also agree that "bicker" is a slur. Bickering is in the eye of the beholder.

I believe it was me that used the word "Bicker", and I'm going to stand by it. It wasn't a slur, and wasn't aimed at just one side. To me the whole argument over whether someone should be allowed to wait for more evidence or not before getting off the fence, what Frank said to who, or what avatar someone used and if it was offensive, has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and certainly has nothing to do with the facts of the case.

Instead of worrying about trivial things like that, I'd rather that those that believe in guilt were willing to actually stand up for their side of the story. Since I have been asking questions those for Innocence have been great and provided a huge amount of material and answers, those for Guilt have been, for the most part, eerily silent, which makes it hard to judge if they even have anything worthy of bring to the table.

If a certain poster feels that he'd rather moan about me using the word "bicker" and feel hurt of the "slur" because of his ongoing avoiding of the case details rather than actually addressing the questions I have been raising, then so be it. I still don't have a dog in this fight, I'm trying to figure out what happened, I'd think that those who believe in Guilt would be trying to woo me as hard as the those who believe in Innocence, but instead I'm having to dredge through everything on their side by myself and just hope I can ask the right questions.

 

[PhantomWolf]

No, that's not it, I just can't see it well on my monitor. Perhaps I should clean it!

Stop watching the DNA gathering footage while drinking coke.

 

[PhantomWolf]

My entirely non-expert guess would be that it's consistent with Rudy holding a small knife in his hand and it slipping when he stabbed someone.

I have to admit that I thought the same thing, that it was caused by the hand sliding down the blade of a held knife.

 

[Draca]

Thanks for the photo Draca. Love your work.

That doesn't look anything like a palm though, so I guess Vogt got that wrong or made it up. That's clearly a cut on a finger. My entirely non-expert guess would be that it's consistent with Rudy holding a small knife in his hand and it slipping when he stabbed someone. It does indeed look like it was quite deep and based on a vaguely similar injury I did to myself with a kitchen knife earlier this year I'm sure it would indeed have bled freely after a few seconds.

It is indeed counter intuitive that none of Rudy's blood was found anywhere if he had an injury like that. I can only guess he wrapped his hand in a hankie or something while running from the murder room to the bathroom.

Kevin,

The most likely times that RG would have gotten the cuts to his hand was at the two main points of attack. First by the bed and then by the desk. I think he most likely got cut while making the large neck slash that would have taken both muscle and momentum in order to do that much damage. I have wondered before though if the bloody hand print on the wall by the bed could have been made by RG with his own bloody hand from the cuts. He did say he wrote AF iin blood on the wall and that is the only hand print on the wall. The hand print tested negative for DNA, so there is no way to know if it is his blood or MK's.

After stabbing MK by the desk / wardrobe area, he then pulled off her light blue jacket leaving the sleeves turned inside out and then ripped off her bra. I don't think he would have stopped while being this enraged to wrap his hand in a towel or something. He also would have found it difficult to remove the jacket and bra with his hand bound. Ron Hendy believes that RG probably left his blood on the strap of the bra when he ripped it off. We do know his DNA was found on the cuff of the jacket and the bra. I don't know if these items were even tested for anyone else's blood on them. Remember, the rule for this forensic investigation is to assume the tests were not done until shown otherwise.

His blood should also be in the sink mixed with MK's from when he washed his hands. Although it may have been washed away.

 

[Mary_H]

I believe it was me that used the word "Bicker", and I'm going to stand by it. It wasn't a slur, and wasn't aimed at just one side. To me the whole argument over whether someone should be allowed to wait for more evidence or not before getting off the fence, what Frank said to who, or what avatar someone used and if it was offensive, has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and certainly has nothing to do with the facts of the case.

Instead of worrying about trivial things like that, I'd rather that those that believe in guilt were willing to actually stand up for their side of the story. Since I have been asking questions those for Innocence have been great and provided a huge amount of material and answers, those for Guilt have been, for the most part, eerily silent, which makes it hard to judge if they even have anything worthy of bring to the table.

If a certain poster feels that he'd rather moan about me using the word "bicker" and feel hurt of the "slur" because of his ongoing avoiding of the case details rather than actually addressing the questions I have been raising, then so be it. I still don't have a dog in this fight, I'm trying to figure out what happened, I'd think that those who believe in Guilt would be trying to woo me as hard as the those who believe in Innocence, but instead I'm having to dredge through everything on their side by myself and just hope I can ask the right questions.

If you characterize bickering as "worrying about trivial things," then you are making a value judgment, and your use of the word becomes a slur.

 

[PhantomWolf]

If you characterize bickering as "worrying about trivial things," then you are making a value judgment, and your use of the word becomes a slur.

Trivial things means things that are off topic and little use or importance to to the subject at hand, which is the Discussion of the Amanda Knox case not whose Avatar was inappropriate or what Frank said to Bruce on a blogg somewhere else. This is a matter of fact, not a value judgement, and one that is also upheld by the rules of the board if required.

Also, a slur is "An insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation." Telling people to stop bickering is not a allegation that is likely to insult or damage their reputation, so it's not a slur either.

This however is pointless and again distracting from the real focus of the thread which is far more important than meaningless arguing with faceless people on the internet.

 

[Diastole]

The photo is from Nov 20, 2007 - 19 days later! I think these were significant wounds to be sure! They would have been bleeding heavily right after the cut. His blood should be on anything he touched or grabbed after the cut - the blue jacket, bra, socks.....

Come on now - are we really surprised at this point that CSI PERUGIA likely missed his blood at the crime scene?

Thanks for posting this photo, Draca. To my eye, the scars on Guede's fingers look a bit too blanched to be only 19 days old, and have the appearance of mature wounds which occurred at least a few months prior. However, limitatations in the colour reproduction of the photo make it difficult to be overly sure about this.

 

[Mary_H]

Trivial things means things that are off topic and little use or importance to to the subject at hand, which is the Discussion of the Amanda Knox case not whose Avatar was inappropriate or what Frank said to Bruce on a blogg somewhere else. This is a matter of fact, not a value judgement, and one that is also upheld by the rules of the board if required.

Also, a slur is "An insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation." Telling people to stop bickering is not a allegation that is likely to insult or damage their reputation, so it's not a slur either.

This however is pointless and again distracting from the real focus of the thread which is far more important than meaningless arguing with faceless people on the internet.

I understand your point of view about the membership agreement, and it has some validity. However, the other day, you also used the word bickering in this post, and I, for one, did feel insulted. The preceding conversation had been interesting to me; in my opinion, it was topical and not trivial.

In the same post, you asked us to go over old territory and look at things from 2008-2009. Several people were able to answer your questions because they are knowledgeable about the case. To me, it makes sense that posters who are knowledgeable about the case also are qualified to decide what subject matter is important, even when it may not look important to someone else.

 

[Kaosium]

Stop watching the DNA gathering footage while drinking coke.

LOL!

I remember when I first saw the video of the 'collection' of the bra clasp, I quite simply didn't believe it. The source was a Pakistani TV site or something, and I was so naive I honestly didn't believe they could have done that and let it be seen by anyone.

 

[Antony]

This is one of the issues I have with the current way justice systems work. The defence is reliant on the Police to do the forensics right, and if they don't, or they decide that a test might "muddy the waters" they can just not do it, and the defense never has access to that information. It's like hiding things that the police decide aren't relevant to the case, they don't have to be handed over. All this does is start the Defence on the backfoot right from the start.

Police work and trials should be about finding out the truth, not just confirming the police's suspicions. They should follow the evidence, even if they don't like where it leads.

Whole-heartedly agree. In the UK, the system has learned some lessons after the Guildford and Birmingham cases - in particular to require police interviews to be recorded, and to exclude uncorroborated confessions; but none of that did anything to avoid the Broadwater Farm travesty or the Jill Dando cock-up.

Until the incentives for "achieving" convictions regardless of the truth are removed, we will continue to see miscarriages of justice of this nature.

 

[Chris C]

Now seriously, I believe I have read somewhere that during the attack Rudy cut his hand, so that would mean he had his own blood on him in the bathroom, I was really interested in what evidence directly shows that he went into the bathroom and not just straight down the hallway and out of the house.

Rudy claims to have left Meredith's room and went to her bathroom. While in there he claims to have retrieved the towels and brought them back to Meredith to help stop the bleeding.(since he is trying to save her life according to him at this point) However, the presence of the towels in the Murder room does atleast verify that Guede did go to the bathroom and then back to Meredith's room. Now I dont believe Guede was trying to help Meredith, but he does confirm, with evidence, that he did go to the bathroom and back to Meredith's room. So personally i think there is little to be debated on this point. Though some guilters still try to argue that he fled as soon as Meredith was stabbed.

 

[RoseMontague]

LOL!

I remember when I first saw the video of the 'collection' of the bra clasp, I quite simply didn't believe it. The source was a Pakistani TV site or something, and I was so naive I honestly didn't believe they could have done that and let it be seen by anyone.

Yes,
I am also informed that Pakistani TV has video of the angry FOA protesters that swarmed Daric Richie's home. Who knew? In related news Romanian teens who have been following the case are said to be overjoyed that Daric changed his mind on Amanda Knox.

http://www.examiner.com/celebrities-in-tacoma/daric-richie-s-sudden-change-verdict-sparks-outrage

Daric (16) who was seen leaving his home earlier this morning "Ran into an outraged group of protesters while reportedly heading to his local library to study for his upcoming life as a college student" says neighbor Lisa Guarani.

Daric is one funny dude.

 

[Justinian2]

I don't agree with the term "hate sites" and I wish that those that use this term to describe PMF and TJMK would stop using it. Just my opinion.

Hate is a feeling. This is not a perfect world, and hate is felt all around whether or not it is expressed. I hate Mignini, for sure.

As for the suppression of journalists by Italy, a democracy cannot function without free speech. Without free speech you have a disguised dictatorship. The government of Italy is sick, very sick.