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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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In truth I know little about the euthanasia program. I will assume that in the usual German method the program was thoroughly documented. Where are the documents?

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Otto Brautigam, from the Ostministerium, 18 December 1942, chided Lohse concerning the National Socialists' meticulous and written documentation of their actions in East: "Clarification of the Jewish question should be reached through verbal discussions."
 
I am supporting the obvious fact that the holohoax is a pack of lies sourced to the World Jewish Congress, absurd on their face, yet endlessly trumpeted by the Jewish press including the flagship of US journalism, the New York Times. For more articles with similar claims, refer to 'The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" by Arthur Butz.

Could you point out these supporting facts?
 
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So, if it is this easy, why have neither you nor any other denier here actually *cited* any of these articles, rather than just baldly lying that they exist.

We, of course, know the answer: just like the Wise editorial Saggs keeps using, it doesn't say what you have been told by other, more clever deniers that it does.

BTW, it's a slow news night, so I actually checked:

September 1851 -- December 1933, "Six Million Jews" : Three hits

Same date range, "6 million Jews": zero hits

Same date range, "6,000,000 Jews": 12 hits





That's 82 years.


15 articles.


So I guess that proves that I was 'baldly lying' when I said the print media in the United States published alarmist stories about the Jews of Europe facing imminent doom prior to the Nazi takeover? Those stories don't exist?



Most of which do not mention "extermination" or any similar term.


And that proves precisely what? That there was never any mention of extermination?



Just to make the idiocy of this claim even *more* obvious, same date range, "Lithuania": ~4000 hits.


Yeah, now *that's* a propaganda campaign.


Hell, even "maggot" got more 8 times more press then: 122 hits.



Lithuania is a real place with real people. Maggots are also real. Millions of European Jews were not in mortal peril (or at least no more so than their non-Jewish neighbors) throughout the early 20th century. Of course there are more stories about what is real.
 
Millions of European Jews were not in mortal peril (or at least no more so than their non-Jewish neighbors) throughout the early 20th century. Of course there are more stories about what is real.

No one debates that - it's the middle bit of the century we get concerned about. You know when millions of European Jews ceased to exist
 
It would be very interesting (and very stupid) if Saggy admits to the reality of Action T4.

I don't think any holohoax denier denies that there was a euthanasia program for the mentally ill. Let's check Butz .... googling ....he begins...

The euthanasia program came into existence via a Hitler decree of September 1, 1939, authorizing the mercy killing of mortally ill patients.

Now perhaps someone would like to explain why a pathological liar like Y. Wiernik is one of the most referenced holohoax witnesses. Why a pathological liar like E. Weisel became the first director of the USHMM.

Or how about A. Bomba, who gave his own wife and mother (or daugher) haircuts before they were gassed. Or F. Meuller who complained of the tea being cold after witnessing the beating deaths of 30 fellow Jews.

These degenerates epitomize the holohoax.
Only Nazis use words like degenerate. I'm surprised that you didn't know that. No supporting facts yet. No? What a surprise. Carry on Jew hating.
 
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So I guess that proves that I was 'baldly lying' when I said the print media in the United States published alarmist stories about the Jews of Europe facing imminent doom prior to the Nazi takeover? Those stories don't exist?
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But that isn't what you said was it? You can link to your post saying so, and show that my post in response to that?



Why do you continue to lie to justify your hate?


Now, of the 15 (over the course of nearly a century) stories I cited, which talked about "Jews facing imminent doom?"




I'm sorry what's that? Exactly none?







You really need to learn not to cite sources you haven't, you know, actually checked...
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And that proves precisely what? That there was never any mention of extermination?
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No. Just not in those articles which you suggested we search for.



You *did* have a reason to suggest those searches? Perhaps something about "imminant doom?" BUt funny, none of them mention any such...


You really need to learn not to cite sources you haven't, you know, actually checked...
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Lithuania is a real place with real people. Maggots are also real. Millions of European Jews were not in mortal peril (or at least no more so than their non-Jewish neighbors) throughout the early 20th century. Of course there are more stories about what is real.
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And your claim, being limited to pre-1933, conveniently ignores a little thing called WWII, which happened in the early 20th.

So now you've changed to not only denying the Holocaust, but denying such things as the Nuremberg laws?

Which non-Jewish neighbors were impacted by those? Which non-Jewish neighbors were actively prevented from doing certain jobs? Which non-Jewish neighbors were confined to ghettos? Which non-Jewish neighbors were forcibly removed from their homes and seperated from their possessions -- ***because they non-Jewish***? Which non-Jewish neighbors of, oh let's say Anne Frank, had to go into hiding for years and then were shipped to camps where the conditions were known to be fatal?

What Happened to Jean-Claude, Richard, and Jacques Benguigui?

What happened to their non-Jewish neighbors?







And finally, why do you hate Jews so much?
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Here's a document for Saggy.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_228454da76d18a0d54.jpg[/qimg]

The "euthanasia decree", written on Adolf Hitler's personal stationery and signed by Hitler. The document signed in October 1939 but dated 1 September 1939, reads as follows:

Reich Leader Bouhler and Dr. Brandt are charged with the responsibility for expanding the authority of physicians, to be designated by name, to the end that patients considered incurable according to the best available human judgment [menschlichem Ermessen] of their state of health, can be granted a mercy death [Gnadentod].

Thats got to be the most pathetic document ever.

All the official laws and regulations I have seen of the period were in gothic typescript. We are also told that Hitler preferred the large and unique Fuehrer typescript for issuing documents, but this is normal typescript.

There appears to be no day book or journal reference number at all. And the most basic of stamps and no letter head of any description.
 
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You clowns haven't presented a single piece of evidence, that any of these stories are just lies, you haven't even shown them to be false. (Yeah Sherlock, there is a difference.) And no, mocking these stories or just repeating, that these are lies, is NOT presenting evidence.

On the other hand you keep lying and lying yourself. The quote-mining of Van Pelt is the last example of your pathetic BS.

So you believe that at Auschwitz there were two flaming pits: one for babies and one for adults? You believe that a lorry loaded with babies was backed up to the baby burning pit and the babies were unceremoniously dumped into that pit? You believe that adults literally marched single file to the edge of the adults-only burning pit and then fell in of their own volition? You believe that this actually happened, even once?
 
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But that isn't what you said was it? You can link to your post saying so, and show that my post in response to that?

What did I say? I said you can search the NYT archive for the years 1851 to 1933 for "six million Jews" and see how many hits you get.

You did that and found fifteen articles. You then used that fact as proof that I was lying when I said there were articles published in the NYT during the years 1851 and 1933 that mentioned six million Jews.

But I didn't even say that. I said look it up. You invented this fantasy world where I was arguing that stories appeared in the NYT long before the Nazi takeover about six million Jews being exterminated. You then countered by calling me a liar-that no such articles ever appeared. You supported your counter argument by digging up a handful of articles talking about six million Jews, most of which didn't mention extermination.

If you're going to erect a straw man, at least make up an argument that demolishes that straw man.


Now, of the 15 (over the course of nearly a century) stories I cited, which talked about "Jews facing imminent doom?"




I'm sorry what's that? Exactly none?

OK. Then what exactly was the condition of the Jews mentioned in these articles? They don't say specifically they're facing imminent doom. What were they facing? Were they facing free train tickets to Palestine to rebuild the Jewish State? Were they facing government subsidized cocaine and prostitutes? Was the outlook for the future of these Jews optimistic or not?

If you read these articles and believed them, would you describe the overall condition of the Jews as something like "unbridled happiness" or do you think "imminent doom" is a better description of what the author wanted the reader to believe?



And your claim, being limited to pre-1933, conveniently ignores a little thing called WWII, which happened in the early 20th.

Because, moron, we're talking about Jews whining about their dismal future in the years BEFORE the Nazi takeover.


What Happened to Jean-Claude, Richard, and Jacques Benguigui?

Could not care less.


What happened to their non-Jewish neighbors?


They pay taxes to build more and more holocaust 'memorials' and 'learning centers'
 
Dogzilla said:
So you believe that at Auschwitz there were two flaming pits: one for babies and one for adults? You believe that a lorry loaded with babies was backed up to the baby burning pit and the babies were unceremoniously dumped into that pit? You believe that adults literally marched single file to the edge of the adults-only burning pit and then fell in of their own volition? You believe that this actually happened, even once?

In which universe is a stupid question evidence, that these things didn't happen? Looks like the Appeal to ridicule is all you pathetic morons got.

Especially in the end of Auschwitz, they had to kill people in different ways, since Himmler gave the order for the gassings to be stopped and there was no Zyklon B left for them. So not "wasting" Zyklon B on victims, who could be killed by simply throwing them in the burning pits or the ovens makes a lot of sense. That they would categorize the victims for the burning pits is also not surprising since that kind of "humor" would be typical for the nazis.

But before I continue, since you deniers love it to distort testimony, show me exactly those quotes in context. And while you are at it, explain to me, how exactly does the fact, that SOME of the testimonies are lies or a product of hear-say, disprove the fact, that Auschwitz was a death camp, which is proven alone by those nasty documents you like to ignore?

Dogzilla said:
Why do you hate Germans so much?

Nobody does, you guys on the other hand have absolutly nothing to disprove the holocaust and still deny it, what could be the reason for that?
 
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Thats got to be the most pathetic document ever.

All the official laws and regulations I have seen of the period were in gothic typescript. We are also told that Hitler preferred the large and unique Fuehrer typescript for issuing documents, but this is normal typescript.

There appears to be no day book or journal reference number at all. And the most basic of stamps and no letter head of any description.
This was not an "official law or regulation." It was never published. It was an authorization, not a Fuhrer order, used selectively by Brandt and Bouhler, that is, those authorized by Hitler's backdated document, to demonstrate to those who had concerns about the program that it had Hitler's approval. The preparation of the original and copies, and discussions of the purpose, are in U. Schmidt, p 132, and H. Friedlander, p 67. Friedlander states that the document was "Prepared on Hitler's personal stationary . . . but never promulgated or published in any legal gazette . . . [and] did not actually have the force of law."

"Refuting" a claim never made is a standard denier trick, which is probably one reason Nick Terry is trying to get Saggy to spell out what the accounts he is "revising" actually hold. And as usual, deniers intimate, without details (names, dates, purposes), forgery when they have exhausted their little grey matter.

Saggy's case is deplorable, as he first, citing Butz, stipulates to the mass murder program, then questions it for supposed lack of documentation. All that he has demonstrated is the lack of knowledge he has also stipulated to.
 
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Millions of European Jews were not in mortal peril (or at least no more so than their non-Jewish neighbors) throughout the early 20th century. Of course there are more stories about what is real.

This is a grotesquely ignorant statement.

In 1881, East European Jews - those living in the Russian Empire - became the victims of a wave of rioting and killings which in the *Russian* language are known as pogromy, which entered the English language as 'pogroms'. In Russian, a pogrom is a massacre.

The 1881 pogroms did not cost many lives, but they triggered the start of a mass emigration out of the Russian Empire, which then accelerated when in 1903-1906 another wave of pogroms broke out, this time costing 2,000 lives.

Then in 1915, when the Tsarist Army was retreating out of Poland and Lithuania under pressure from the Imperial German Army, Tsarist commanders decided that Lithuanian, Polish and Russian Jews were "German spies" on the grounds that Yiddish is similar to German and because they had imbibed the virulent antisemitism that was rampant in Tsarist Russia, so they deported more than 1 million Jews out of the combat zone. The Tsarist authorities also deported and arrested ethnic Germans in the same time-frame. They also used traditional Russian scorched-earth tactics and generally caused havoc. The deportations obviously led to major economic and food supply dislocations which required humanitarian aid.

At the same time as the Russians were deporting Jews and Germans, the Ottoman state was busily deporting Armenians, only under far worse circumstances that led to the deaths of most of the deportees from exhaustion as well as direct killing. This is now known as the Armenian genocide.

In 1918, after the two Russian revolutions of 1917, the Central Powers overran most of the Baltic states, Belorussia, Ukraine and went all the way to the Caucasus, forcing the new Bolshevik regime to sign the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk in March 1918. The Russian Civil War broke out shortly thereafter, pitting White Russian monarchists and conservatives, who were invariably extremely antisemitic, against the Bolsheviks. From November 1918, the conflict became a free-for-all as every non-Russian region generated a nationalist movement which sought to secede from Russia, in particular in the Ukraine. Kiev changed hands about eight times in the Civil War.

During the Civil War, there were nearly 1,000 pogroms which cost around 100,000 lives. 65% were perpetrated by Ukrainian nationalists and anarchists, 17% by the White Russians and 8.5% by undisciplined Red Army units. The Polish Army also carried out reprisal shootings of Jews which in the climate of mass violence against Jews were initially interpreted as pogroms until they were investigated and shown not to be.

At the same time as rival armies and partisan forces wreaked havoc across Russia, food supplies became endangered, the urban population was halved (and where did East European Jews live at this time? In the towns, of course), and by 1921 a major typhus epidemic broke out, coinciding with the end of the Civil War and a harvest failure so severe that the Bolshevik regime appealed for international aid, which was delivered under the aegis of future US President Herbert Hoover, joined by medical relief expeditions from the Weimar Republic.

In total, the Russian Civil War and the associated famines and epidemics cost between 5 and 9 million lives, following on from the loss of three and a half million lives in WWI, of whom 1.5 million were civilians.

So, in 1919, not only were East European Jews threatened with humanitarian disaster because of the aftermath of WWI, revolution and the ongoing civil war, they were also being targeted by many sides in the civil war for actual murder, in a land which had previously seen two major outbreaks of lethal antisemitic violence and the displacement of over a sixth of the entire Jewish population of the Russian Empire.
 
This was not an "official law or regulation." It was never published. It was an authorization, not a Fuhrer order, used selectively by Brandt and Bouhler, that is, those authorized by Hitler's backdated document, to demonstrate to those who had concerns about the program that it had Hitler's approval. The preparation of the original and copies, and discussions of the purpose, are in U. Schmidt, p 132, and H. Friedlander, p 67. Friedlander states that the document was "Prepared on Hitler's personal stationary . . . but never promulgated or published in any legal gazette . . . [and] did not actually have the force of law."
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Well do you have any other examples of such Hitler authorisations in less contentious areas. Because lets face it, Hitler seems to have used very meagre stationary and a complete absence of file keeping that can be seen in this document
HLSL_NUR_00489001.jpg


But perhaps you have other examples that we can compare with
 
Because, moron, we're talking about Jews whining about their dismal future in the years BEFORE the Nazi takeover.
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And your "whining" amounted to a total of 15 articles over the course of nearly a century.

Try again -- and check your sources before you whine any more.


And of course, you couldn't care less: they were only Jews, after all. But one would think (not that deniers really think) that if you were trying to show that it was all just "Jewish whining", one would care to demonstrate that the Benguigui's non-Jewish neighbors were subject to the same treatment that they received.



That *was* the lie you told, wasn't it?






Why, yes -- it was.





Care to try and show that you weren't lying about that?







Why, no -- you won't.






Denier "scholarship" in action....
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