Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Saggy]

Yes, this does present a problem for the deniers. Action T4 could be termed the prelude to the later genocides, almost a smaller scale rehearsal for the later mass murders.

The same techniques of deception were used too. Authorized by a signed memo by Hitler, the project was top secret and only officially ended when word leaked out and an RC bishop preached against the program in a Sunday sermon.

The victims were taken to remote "hospitals," led into shower rooms and the gas (carbon monoxide) was pumped in through metal pipes (which Saggy doesn't think is possible) and the bodies were cremated (for "hygienic" reasons) to prevent the families of the dead requesting autopsies.

It would be very interesting (and very stupid) if Saggy admits to the reality of Action T4.

It would be very interesting (and very stupid) if Saggy admits to the reality of Action T4.

I don't think any holohoax denier denies that there was a euthanasia program for the mentally ill. Let's check Butz .... googling ....he begins...

The euthanasia program came into existence via a Hitler decree of September 1, 1939, authorizing the mercy killing of mortally ill patients.

Now perhaps someone would like to explain why a pathological liar like Y. Wiernik is one of the most referenced holohoax witnesses. Why a pathological liar like E. Weisel became the first director of the USHMM.

Or how about A. Bomba, who gave his own wife and mother (or daugher) haircuts before they were gassed. Or F. Meuller who complained of the tea being cold after witnessing the beating deaths of 30 fellow Jews.

These degenerates epitomize the holohoax.

 

[MG1962]

Now perhaps someone would like to explain why a pathological liar like Y. Wiernik is one of the most referenced holohoax witnesses. Why a pathological liar like E. Weisel became the first director of the USHMM.

Or how about A. Bomba, who gave his own wife and mother (or daugher) haircuts before they were gassed. Or F. Meuller who complained of the tea being cold after witnessing the beating deaths of 30 fellow Jews.

These degenerates epitomize the holohoax.

As per posts #872 #874 #878 we are yet to establish who the liar actual is

 

[Wroclaw]

I can't help but wonder how many people in the general population have ever heard of Yankel Wiernik.

I think he's not so heavily referenced outside of a particular niche.

 

[pooshoodog]

This asks whether things like the mass murder of mental patients in Aktion T4 by gassing was 'hoaxed'.

I don't know much about the euthanasia of mental patients, which I think is not disputed, it's not part of the holohoax.

Why would someone who doesn't know much (anything at all?) about
T-4 appoint himself to be taken seriously as a knowledgeable source
of opinion on Nazi attrocities? Is Saggy aware that he has utterly
confessed to being totally inept in his preparation to discuss the
issues on which he loudly trumpets? If one knows nothing about T-4,
one cannot possibly have read any significant Holocaust literature.

So if Saggy is an absolute novice in his, um, study of Holocaust
scholarship, what value do his very oppinionated assertions have?

 

[Wroclaw]

Absolutely none. Perhaps less.

 

[Dogzilla]

I was quoting articles from the NYT, one published in 1900, the other in 1909. For a whole slew of articles published in the NYT from 1915-22 with holohoax lies get Don Heddesheimer's book "The First Holohoax, Jewish Fund Raising Campaigns With Holohoax Claims During World War ONE", available on amazon.com.

You can also search the NYT archive from 1851 to 1933 for "six million Jews" (and various forms of the same, e.g., "6,000,000 Jews" "6 million Jews" etc.) and see how many hits you get. That's just one newspaper in one country. It's too bad all the major daily newspapers in North America and Europe don't have their archives available online. We could get a more complete picture of how successful the pre-war extermination campaign really was if more sources were available.

 

[TSR]

You can also search the NYT archive from 1851 to 1933 for "six million Jews" (and various forms of the same, e.g., "6,000,000 Jews" "6 million Jews" etc.) and see how many hits you get. That's just one newspaper in one country. It's too bad all the major daily newspapers in North America and Europe don't have their archives available online. We could get a more complete picture of how successful the pre-war extermination campaign really was if more sources were available.

.
So, if it is this easy, why have neither you nor any other denier here actually *cited* any of these articles, rather than just baldly lying that they exist.

We, of course, know the answer: just like the Wise editorial Saggs keeps using, it doesn't say what you have been told by other, more clever deniers that it does.

BTW, it's a slow news night, so I actually checked:

September 1851 -- December 1933, "Six Million Jews" : Three hits

Same date range, "6 million Jews": zero hits

Same date range, "6,000,000 Jews": 12 hits





That's 82 years.


15 articles.




Most of which do not mention "extermination" or any similar term.



Just to make the idiocy of this claim even *more* obvious, same date range, "Lithuania": ~4000 hits.


Yeah, now *that's* a propaganda campaign.


Hell, even "maggot" got more 8 times more press then: 122 hits.



Similarly, to address Saggy's lie, same date range, "World Jewish Congress" holocaust: well, lookit there -- precisely zero hits.











What do you believe it says about you that you parrot such easily proven lies to try to justify your hatred?






BTW, did you see what I repeatedly did there? Rather than just say it's so, I offered the links you couldn't be bothered to, so anyone can check them.




Well, anyone but you and Saggs -- you'd rather keep lying than do any research even when it's spoon fed you.





A final word: the sources you whine about *are* available. Big building. Nice person to help you find book. Many, many books.


Read them and actually *learn* something about the history you want to ****-can.
.

 

[LemmyCaution]

>> TSR: How many cites are we talking, and by whom?


In the Holohoax according to Saggy, Wiernik is "often cited by the dean of holohoax academics, Raul Hilberg." I used search in Google Books to check for these citations in the 1388 pages of Hilberg's The Destruction of the European Jews. Hilberg seems to cite Wiernik on four pages. On p 937, Wiernik is cited as a secondary reference within a footnote, adding detail. On pp 981, 983, and 1038 Wiernik also appears in footnotes, in all cases except one as a secondary or confirming reference. Treblinka is mentioned on 30+ pp in The Destruction of European Jews. Still, 4 pp with supporting references doesn't seem often to me.

"Often cited by the dean . . ."? There are a whole crap load of pages in Hilberg . . . Did I miss any references to Wiernik?

I prefer Oscar Strawczynski's Ten Months in Treblinka which, as I recall, is generally congruent with Wiernik, differing on some details to be sure. When Saggy is through not answering Nick Terry's questions, I know he will enlighten us on all this.

 

[LemmyCaution]

It would be very interesting (and very stupid) if Saggy admits to the reality of Action T4.

I don't think any holohoax denier denies that there was a euthanasia program for the mentally ill. Let's check Butz .... googling ....he begins...

The euthanasia program came into existence via a Hitler decree of September 1, 1939, authorizing the mercy killing of mortally ill patients.

The killings were definitively not mercy killings, as the liar Butz tries putting over. They were part of a program of mass murder of people deemed by the National Socialists to be unworthy of life and a threat to the health of the German people. Ulf Schmidt's biography of Karl Brandt and Henry Friedlander's book on the "euthanasia" program are good starting places to find out who was killed, why, and by what procedures and means. Does Saggy admit that victims were gassed at hospital-killing-centers?

 

[Wroclaw]

You can also search the NYT archive from 1851 to 1933 for "six million Jews" (and various forms of the same, e.g., "6,000,000 Jews" "6 million Jews" etc.) and see how many hits you get. That's just one newspaper in one country. It's too bad all the major daily newspapers in North America and Europe don't have their archives available online. We could get a more complete picture of how successful the pre-war extermination campaign really was if more sources were available.

It's been done:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2010/04/thomas-dalton-responds-to-roberto_29.html

 

[pooshoodog]

The killings were definitively not mercy killings, as the liar Butz tries putting over. They were part of a program of mass murder of people deemed by the National Socialists to be unworthy of life and a threat to the health of the German people. Ulf Schmidt's biography of Karl Brandt and Henry Friedlander's book on the "euthanasia" program are good starting places to find out who was killed, why, and by what procedures and means. Does Saggy admit that victims were gassed at hospital-killing-centers?

Has Saggy explained why those individuals in charge of "mercy killing"
were the same folks employed to safely transit Jewish travelers to
their destinations in the East? It seems odd that this nexus has such
an intimate nature. Since Saggy has admitted to knowing nothing about
T-4, can we also assume that he knows nothing about the use of CO
as the means of Mercy at T-4 institutions?

Oh yes, Welcome LemmyCaution.

 

[Saggy]

Has Saggy explained why those individuals in charge of "mercy killing"
were the same folks employed to safely transit Jewish travelers to
their destinations in the East? It seems odd that this nexus has such
an intimate nature. Since Saggy has admitted to knowing nothing about
T-4, can we also assume that he knows nothing about the use of CO
as the means of Mercy at T-4 institutions?

Oh yes, Welcome LemmyCaution.

In truth I know little about the euthanasia program. I will assume that in the usual German method the program was thoroughly documented. Where are the documents?

As for articles in the NYT about the holohoax, Butz cites several, maybe 10, from the spring of 1942, as representative ..... here are excerpts from one ....


June 30, 1942, p. 7: "1,000,000 Jews Slain By Nazis, Report Says

London, June 29 (UP) [...] spokesmen for the World Jewish Congress charged today.

They said Nazis had established a 'vast slaughterhouse for Jews' in Eastern Europe. [...] A report to the Congress said that Jews, deported en masse to Central Poland from Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia and the Netherlands were being shot by firing squads at the rate of 1,000 daily.

Information received by the Polish Government in London confirmed that the Nazis had executed 'several hundred thousand' Jews in Poland."

 

[Craig4]

The killings were definitively not mercy killings, as the liar Butz tries putting over. They were part of a program of mass murder of people deemed by the National Socialists to be unworthy of life and a threat to the health of the German people. Ulf Schmidt's biography of Karl Brandt and Henry Friedlander's book on the "euthanasia" program are good starting places to find out who was killed, why, and by what procedures and means. Does Saggy admit that victims were gassed at hospital-killing-centers?

This is explored in Lifton's "The Nazi Doctors" too. Of course there's no URL so it's unlikely he's familiar with this work either.

 

[Kevin.Silbstedt]

In truth I know little about the euthanasia program.

Well, in truth you know absolutly nothing about the jewish holocaust either.

Say what? Why would I indulge in that idiocy? I'll give it a go ... just for fun .... Elie Weisel is in the mainstream, right? He says the Nazis threw adults into one burning pit, and babies into another at Auschwitz. That degenerate lie is part of the holocaust, and has the added cachet of being told by the first director of the USHMM. Same book, 'Night', he says Nazis tossed babies into the air and used them for machine gun practice. That degenerate lie is part of the holocaust. Another mainstream source, Y. Wiernik, says that the Nazis grabbed babies from their mother's arms and tore them into two parts with their bare hands. That degenerate lie is part of the holocaust. How many do you need? You know infinitely more than I do, make your own list.

You clowns haven't presented a single piece of evidence, that any of these stories are just lies, you haven't even shown them to be false. (Yeah Sherlock, there is a difference.) And no, mocking these stories or just repeating, that these are lies, is NOT presenting evidence.

On the other hand you keep lying and lying yourself. The quote-mining of Van Pelt is the last example of your pathetic BS.

I will assume that in the usual German method the program was thoroughly documented. Where are the documents?

And If someone presents them? Then what? You will just keep denying it, like you already did with the documents about the gas chambers in Krema II and III of Birkenau or the gas chamber in Dachau, which is still there today, but that doesnt keep you from denying its existence.

You always demand a special kind of evidence and when someone presents it to you, you just keep going on with your idiotic denial. Hmm, looks like you are the pathological liar here. Kind of ironic isn't it?

 

[Wroclaw]

This is explored in Lifton's "The Nazi Doctors" too. Of course there's no URL so it's unlikely he's familiar with this work either.

Right here:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/lifton/

 

[A'isha]

As for articles in the NYT about the holohoax, Butz cites several, maybe 10, from the spring of 1942, as representative ..... here are excerpts from one ....


June 30, 1942, p. 7: "1,000,000 Jews Slain By Nazis, Report Says

London, June 29 (UP) [...] spokesmen for the World Jewish Congress charged today.

So, in support of Dogzilla's assertion that there was an extensive pre-war propaganda campaign to claim the Holocaust happened even before it happened, you cite one (of several) articles from right in the middle of the war, nearly six months after the Wannsee Conference took place?

 

[Saggy]

So, in support of Dogzilla's assertion that there was an extensive pre-war propaganda campaign to claim the Holocaust happened even before it happened, you cite one (of several) articles from right in the middle of the war, nearly six months after the Wannsee Conference took place?

I am supporting the obvious fact that the holohoax is a pack of lies sourced to the World Jewish Congress, absurd on their face, yet endlessly trumpeted by the Jewish press including the flagship of US journalism, the New York Times. For more articles with similar claims, refer to 'The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" by Arthur Butz.

 

[A'isha]

I am supporting the obvious fact that the holohoax is a pack of lies sourced to the World Jewish Congress, absurd on their face, yet endlessly trumpeted by the Jewish press including the flagship of US journalism, the New York Times.

Oh, well, in that case you're failing miserably.

 

[Walter Ego]

Originally Posted by Saggy

I will assume that in the usual German method the program was thoroughly documented. Where are the documents?

Here's a document for Saggy.



The "euthanasia decree", written on Adolf Hitler's personal stationery and signed by Hitler. The document signed in October 1939 but dated 1 September 1939, reads as follows:

Reich Leader Bouhler and Dr. Brandt are charged with the responsibility for expanding the authority of physicians, to be designated by name, to the end that patients considered incurable according to the best available human judgment [menschlichem Ermessen] of their state of health, can be granted a mercy death [Gnadentod].

 

[LemmyCaution]

This is explored in Lifton's "The Nazi Doctors" too. Of course there's no URL so it's unlikely he's familiar with this work either.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/lifton/ There seems to be a very large question about what Saggy has read, in print or online. He has distorted what's in Hilberg, shown no signs of awareness of the sources on Treblinka, is floundering around with Nick Terry's questions on mainstream history, can't summarize Van Pelt, etc. My guess is that he is picking up, without really understanding the base material, for not having read it, hatchet jobs done on Holocaust scholarship and clown stuff from a few standard denier pieces and Websites.

Edit: Apologies for duplicating Wroclaw's post.