Merged Molten metal observations

Java Man now you're talking just to hear your voice. All you have is some kind of vague "it looks suspicious" mantra, rhetorical arguments, semantics, and personal incredulity going on here.

Wow. You're the best investigator EVER.
 
Oh mother of GOD! He tried to claim that a thin film of aluminum oxide would raise an entire piece's melting point??

:mgduh

I just got home and reading through the last 3 pages of nonsense. It seems to me that he thinks that all of the aluminum (through the entire cross section) turned into aluminum oxide therefore it can't be melted... :rolleyes:

This all started when he thought that oxygen is equally distributed in a room with a HUGE ASS fire in it (hence his "smart oxygen" comment). He thinks enough oxygen would be available to oxidize aluminum in the same room. He then didn't understand that the fire is consuming almost all of the available oxygen. He thought then that aluminum would be consuming just as much oxygen as the fire. Hence the OT about the fuel is not the fire.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
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My dad melts Aluminium quite happily in his home made furnace, and copper, and barass, and bronze and even up to 5lb of Iron. I will have to tell him he can't do it, it will just oxidise away to ash.



The UK brewing industry too, will breathe a sigh of relief when they discover that scallywags won't steal their aluminium beer kegs anymore and melt them down on garden fires to sell as scrap. Phew.............


Compus
 
Java Man now you're talking just to hear your voice. All you have is some kind of vague "it looks suspicious" mantra, rhetorical arguments, semantics, and personal incredulity going on here.

Wow. You're the best investigator EVER.

Simply show us the slab of aluminum on the tarmac and get it over with. It should be easy. For an airplane that size its a 40x40 m area 1cm thick. If it is there you shouldn't be able to miss it.
 
I just got home and reading through the last 3 pages of nonsense. It seems to me that he thinks that all of the aluminum (through the entire cross section) turned into aluminum oxide therefore it can't be melted... :rolleyes:

This all started when he thought that oxygen is equally distributed in a room with a HUGE ASS fire in it (hence his "smart oxygen" comment). He thinks enough oxygen would be available to oxidize aluminum in the same room. He then didn't understand that the fire is consuming almost all of the available oxygen. He thought then that aluminum would be consuming just as much oxygen as the fire. Hence the OT about the fuel is not the fire.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ummm... look, don't take this wrong man, and don't take it as a criticism, but: That's sort of not correct. Or better yet, not the full story. What would govern things in this case is not merely the availability of oxygen but also the aluminum oxidation rate. It's actually surprisingly low (Source 1. Source 2).

I really, really would need a real chemist here to explain the details well (too bad Maldach doesn't play in the CT subforum :(; I merely took undergrad classes and don't have his experience... ). But: Despite the fact that aluminum oxidation releases quite a bit of energy, it's not normally a quick reaction at all, at least not when you're talking oxidation with air (with iron oxide, well, that's another story but it's also a different reaction with different kinetics). Once an oxide layer forms on an aluminum "particle" (grain, seed, whatever) the aluminum underneath is sealed off from further oxidation. And that's why there's so much research into particle size for aluminum oxidation reactions: Researchers are trying to get a feel for the subtle aspects of the aluminum oxidation reactions in order to fine-tune the rate as well as the completeness to which it reacts. Remember Mackey's mention of Tillotson in reference to the thermite stuff? He's done some research noting that depth of oxidation layer on aluminum particles most definitely affects oxidation "completeness" in ways that aren't immediately apparent; beyond a certain point, smaller particles actually reduces the energy release because a greater proportion of the aluminum particle surface becomes unavailable to combustion due to the depth of the oxidation layer relative to the particle size. That's not immediately obvious, yet it's understandable in hindsight.

Whoops, I'm starting to blabble :o. Anyway, what must be understood is that a fire of office contents (and in the beginning, jet fuel) in the area would quite obviously be proceeding far faster than an air-aluminum oxidation. And without aluminum being consumed at a fast rate, oxygen won't be consumed in an aluminum oxidation at a high rate. That's the bottom line. I wouldn't want to even think about modeling local oxygen concentrations in a fire :boggled:, but when you're talking about the oxidation of aluminum, you must remember the reaction kinetics and compare that against the rate of other oxidations that don't involve aluminum. If you're talking about the atmosphere, there's probably enough oxygen in the air relative to the surface of any given aluminum piece to not be considered "scarce". At least I would guess that's the case; I'm obviously subject to correction by our fire experts here. They'd know better than I would.

Tri, since I opened that door: How exactly would local oxygen concentrations vary in a room where there's a roaring fire? I can mentally picture eddies and swirls, and many areas of CO2 and other gaseous products all mixing chaotically, but I'd guess that you as a firefighter would have a better grasp on how that all works that I would.
 
Oh, FYI, that second link in my above post is really awesome as far as info goes. And it's cool for reasons that have nothing to do with 9/11. It's nothing more than a paper called "A Summary of Aluminum Combustion", yet it's actually interesting in an academic way.

ETA: Oh, BTW, any chemists reading this - please tell me if I got anything wrong in the above post. I believe I got it right, but I'll accept correction from reputable people well informed in chemistry.

Yes, that excludes you, Java Man. Sorry, but you're demonstrating your lack of credibility at every turn.
 
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Yes, that excludes you, Java Man. Sorry, but you're demonstrating your lack of credibility at every turn.

No need to be sorry. I feel flattered you're calling in support from real professionals and taking a step forward toward assuming some burden of proof even when the rules don't require you to. I'm impressed by that. It a good step as you'll need all the help you can get as you still have many hurdles to overcome. Like the uphill climb on the sagging floors.
 
No it has not. If falls short of the window. Geometry 101.

This is the picture that shows it happening. Do you see all of the stuff crammed into the corner on the left? That's the plane and stuff from inside the building. I doubt your picture viewing abilities but that's the scene, that's what you're saying is not real.
 
The things that make you folks go "hmmmmmmmmm" will never cease to amaze me. Nobody knows what was going on in that corner. Nobody will ever know. So what?

Because they think that if it isn't known, then it MUST BE THERMITE -- it can't be anything else.
 
Ok, lets try this again. I've already shown the math to calculate the amount of molten aluminium that should come out of a big airplane. Please show us where the 40x40 m solidified aluminium is on the tarmac.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/5074662060_a29f752bfa.jpg

If the aluminium from the fuselage did indeed melt and not turn to aluminium oxide ash where is it? It can't be inside the fuselage because the aircraft is upside down. Where is the solidified aluminium? You've all shown pictures of molten aluminium flowing. It has a distinct dull white color. I don't see it on the tarmac.

The firefighters don't seem to have any feet either. Or hands. Or eyes........





Zombie-Pirate firefighters??? :rolleyes:
 
Tri, since I opened that door: How exactly would local oxygen concentrations vary in a room where there's a roaring fire? I can mentally picture eddies and swirls, and many areas of CO2 and other gaseous products all mixing chaotically, but I'd guess that you as a firefighter would have a better grasp on how that all works that I would.

ElMondo,

The oxygen content would very from about 3-5%%, to 21%, it would all depend on where you're talking in a fire.

Towards the seat of the fire, it could range from 21 down to about 16%. Once you get lower than about 16%, fire really cannot survive very well. Once you get into the higher parts of a fire filled room where the smoke is, the predominant makeup is going to be carbon, CO2, and other various particulates from the incomplete combustion. This is going to displace oxygen quite well.

Now, open a window, and now you've got a backdraft, since you've intorduced oxygen into a hot, smokey room. Ever see the movie "Backdraft"? I am going to assume yes. When you have a very hot, smoke filled room, you have very little oxygen. Most likely down around 13% or so. Introduce a whole bunch of oxgen at once, and you've got yourself into a hot mess. Literally. That is why firefighters are taught to ventilate a fire from above, let the smoke escape, and help cut down on the possibility of a flashover from a firefighter opening a door, etc.



In a fire like what we saw on 9/11, you're going to have the chimney or smokestack effect in play. This is going to cause eddys and currents to be rapidly pulled up into the fire from down below, causing it to burn quite effeciently. Almost like a blast furnace.


Remeber the old addage in elementary school "Low and Go"? They tell you this for two reasons. Other than the obvious that smoke will kill you, it's because the oxygen sits towards the ground, as the smoke above it has displaced most of the oxygen.


So yes, if there is some form of ventilation, you're going to see ebbs and flows of oxygen in a fire. Most towards the floor, going to the seat of the fire. Less in the smoke filled upper portions of the room.

Conclusion: You've got it right.
 
No it has not. If falls short of the window. Geometry 101.

Physics 101. Velocity. Momentium.

Even slide down a slide? When you get to the end, do you magically stop, or do you continue on just a little more untill you force yourself to stop?

Yeah, I know, you're the one over in the corner eating sand, but it's ok. We understand.
 

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