Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

[humber]

.
That image just shows the normal rotation of the propellor and the wheels, when not the cart is not on the ground.

It is the same as Spork's cart. Off the ground, the tailwind turns prop CCW from the rear. Wheels turn into the tailwind. On that basis, I would expect the cart to move to the left.

.
When it's on the ground, the cart should move off to the right, relative to that image, if the wind force can overcome the rolling friction.
The propellor and wheels will then be moving in the proper direction to get to wind speed.

The cart moves to the right, if there is a force on the cart that is greater than the CCW torque from the rotor (turbine). That greater force is the sail force on the cart and prop, driving it downwind. (Configuration A)

Upwind carts are the same configuration, but designed so that the turbine force, is greater than the downwind sail force, so they move upwind.
This configuration produces failed upwind carts that point downwind, and are driven downwind by sail force.

If the wheel rotation is reversed, then the cart moves downwind driven by both the CCW turbine torque, and the sail force. (Configuration B)

.
As for any "record" I don't expect that at all.
I want to see the driven cart when released, and moving as fast as it can, -not- be caught and passed, or paced, by the freewheeling prop cart.
If this never occurs, then....

I would expect that Configuration A will be the slowest at all times.
If the gearing allows a better power match to the tailwind, Configuration B may be faster off the mark, but the free-wheeler will have the highest top speed.

 

[windgrins]

I Ratant,

It sure looks like from your diagrams that your prop turns backwards for a downwind cart! Try it the other way! Congratulations for attempting to do the experiment but pay attention. The prop is a pusher going downwind. When the wheels are rolling in the downwind direction, the thrust of the prop should be such that it pushes the vehicle downwind. Maybe I'm just seeing your diagram wrong and your prop is on backwards.

I've watched this forum for quite some time and never made a comment. I probably won't again but it has been very instructive.

It is clear that Humber's only benefit in this discussion is to keep the thread going during lulls. No amount of data, empirical evidence, formulas, math, physics, etc. is ever going to convince him of anything. He is the living breathing epitome of "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!" I truly do not believe I have ever witnessed a human who thinks they know something about physics that can be so wrong, or at least so severely misguided, in almost every post. To his credit, he has given many the opportunity to clarify concepts so that almost anyone can understand how this works.

Rick and team, congratulations on the record.

Humber, just to make it interesting, please come up with something new to explain why this cart won't work in the Humberverse.

The following have been beat to death:
1. The cart is not an over unity machine.
2. Not a single soul has ever proclaimed it gets free energy-just that it obtains energy from the difference in air moving over the ground. They have all acknowledged countless times that the energy comes from the wind.
3. They have all acknowledged that it won't run in zero wind.
4. The record was 2.8X wind speed. No amount of nonsense about faulty transducers, etc, will come close to denying the record-give it a rest.
5. The treadmill is a valid transform for anyone who knows anything about physics, aerodynamics or vectors, and clearly illustrates DDWFTTW.
6. For downwind carts, the prop is a pusher, all the time.

Please find some new dead horses to beat as these are puree'd.

Finally, would you please not comment just to deliver insults--it makes us read way to much for zero information.

Thank you.

 

[ThinAirDesigns]

.As for any "record" I don't expect that at all.
I want to see the driven cart when released, and moving as fast as it can, -not- be caught and passed, or paced, by the freewheeling prop cart.
If this never occurs, then....

... then you should have built it correctly.

JB

 

[humber]

Yep -- got that.

I repeat: there's a damn good reason that this particular version won't be establishing any DDWFTTW records anytime soon (or even make reasonable DDW progress).

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21822&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1302820388[/qimg]

JB

It is just like yours. Off the ground the rotor turns CCW and the wheels into the wind.
And no, the twist makes (little) difference. It is the direction of free rotation that matters.
At low speeds, thin profile props are all but symmetrical.

 

[I Ratant]

... then you should have built it correctly.

JB

.
One. I place no value on this record.
Two. I have no interest in meeting or beating this record.
Three. With all the information so freely offered as to the correct way to assemble one of these things, I have found " No","Wrong", "Lie" to lack any useable substance for guidance.

 

[recursive prophet]

Finally, would you please not comment just to deliver insults--it makes us read way to much for zero information.

Thank you.

... then you should have built it correctly.

JB

humber may appear to have some book learnin' when he's talking about areas you know nothing about, but I can assure you he gets almost nothing right in any area. Just draw him into a conversation in an area of interest to you. In no time he'll tell you he's an expert, and you'll watch him get it all wrong.

Yeah, JB gets that. His point is that you've made a glaring design error. Now he'll sit back and watch.

Hmmm...

 

[spork]

With all the information so freely offered as to the correct way to assemble one of these things, I have found " No","Wrong", "Lie" to lack any useable substance for guidance.

Almost all the freely offered info came from us - and you still got it wrong. Some people get it right by simply using the info we put out there. Others ask questions. Then there are those that insult us, don't ask questions, and can't seem to figure it out for themselves. Those people entertain us.

 

[ThinAirDesigns]

.
One. I place no value on this record.
Two. I have no interest in meeting or beating this record.

Exactly -- that's why I included the words: "or even make reasonable DDW progress" in my comment. Forget any records, your device as pictured will lose to a paper bag every time. That is because you have built it incorrectly.

Three. With all the information so freely offered as to the correct way to assemble one of these things, I have found " No","Wrong", "Lie" to lack any useable substance for guidance.

Nonsense of course -- you have been told there are parts lists and precise direction specifically designed to let a person or your "skills" build a working device.

I don't mind at all that you want to do it your way -- I'm just telling you that it's slovenly DDW behavior is to be expected as it sits.

JB

 

[ThinAirDesigns]

It is just like yours.

Poor Humber can't get anything right. Not even when when he can put a picture of ours and a picture of I ratant's cart side by side.

JB

 

[I Ratant]

I Ratant,

It sure looks like from your diagrams that your prop turns backwards for a downwind cart! Try it the other way! Congratulations for attempting to do the experiment but pay attention. The prop is a pusher going downwind. When the wheels are rolling in the downwind direction, the thrust of the prop should be such that it pushes the vehicle downwind. Maybe I'm just seeing your diagram wrong and your prop is on backwards.

...

.
The latest modified as if the cart was on the ground, facing downwind, (note: simulated ground position) shows the propellor rotation and wheels rotation matches the BB.
From the rear, the propellor rotates CW.
From the right side, the wheels rotate CW.
Up until the vehicle achieves the speed of the wind, the force the wind puts on the prop is a push force, from the rear of the vehicle.
At the transition from <wind speed to >wind speed, the propellor is supposed to become a conventional propellor, pulling the vehicle forward.
This is the stumbling point.
A propellor moving forward into a headwind, as it must be past the transition, doesn't have any thrust, it only drags, unless there is something to add the power needed to have more thrust than drag.
The wheels are supposed to do that.
But my buddy today finds that not possible. Without some source of power, the cart might be expected to get to the speed of the wind downwind, but no faster.
.
I expect my cart configured as shown will move downwind, with the propellor moving in the proper CW rotation.
I want to see it get faster than the wind pushing it.
The freewheeler will provide that indication, as there's no practical for me to get the speed of the vehicle, it being in essence just an unguided missile, going where it will.
If the driven cart can go faster than the freewheeler, I will be satisfied.
Getting it to that point has taken a lot of mostly unaided work by me.
Some helpful hints from mender and humber.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Is it possible that I Ratant got his wheel direction wrong in his illustration? At any rate even if his wheel direction is wrong I bet he forgot to take another extremely important factor into account when he built his cart. So I agree with JB, not a chance of ddwfttw.

ETA: Yep, he had his wheel direction wrong, which he corrected in his latest post. But I bet it still won't work.

 

[humber]

Exactly -- that's why I included the words: "or even make reasonable DDW progress" in my comment. Forget any records, your device as pictured will lose to a paper bag every time. That is because you have built it incorrectly.

And his prop turns CCW because?
You have rotor that turns CW as a prop, but quite well CCW when allowed to, but for some reason, you think I Ratant's is "different"
Props like that are designed to work at several thousand rpm. The drag force dominates, and the torque is all but static.

Perhaps you need to be reminded that your own street video shows the cart moving forwards with the rotor turning one way, then the other, and not at all, as you get all type A^3, and bark at Spork.
That does tend to damage your asserted expertise.

 

[ThinAirDesigns]

At the transition from <wind speed to >wind speed, the propellor is supposed to become a conventional propellor, pulling the vehicle forward.

Wrong.

This is the stumbling point.

It's *your* stumbling point -- not ours.

I want to see it get faster than the wind pushing it.

It won't -- not in that configuration.

If the driven cart can go faster than the freewheeler, I will be satisfied.

There's a Rolling Stone's song just for this situation.

JB

 

[humber]

Poor Humber can't get anything right. Not even when when he can put a picture of ours and a picture of I ratant's cart side by side.

JB

He sees the difference and knows it makes no difference. I doubt that you can support that it does.
Other than it looks different. I have 8 props, and only one shows a significant difference if turned around on the shaft. Low speed, you see.

 

[ThinAirDesigns]

... you think I Ratant's is "different"

If a picture is worth a thousand words, in this case comparing two pictures side by side would be worth a few million of yours.

JB

 

[humber]

Wrong.



It's *your* stumbling point -- not ours.



It won't -- not in that configuration.



There's a Rolling Stone's song just for this situation.

JB

The free-wheeler is going to win. Denigrating I Ratant's cart, is a pre-trial defense. A prophylactic.

 

[ThinAirDesigns]

Is it possible that I Ratant got his wheel direction wrong in his illustration?

My comments have nothing to do with any graphics added to his picture.

His vehicle will lose to a paper bag because it isn't built correctly. Like Platt, he needs help. Like Platt, he's decided to go his own way. Like Platt he decided to insult the very people who can help him. Like Platt, it's an entertaining failure.

JB

 

[ThinAirDesigns]

The free-wheeler is going to win.

That or a paper bag -- take your pick.

For once, humber got something right.

JB

 

[I Ratant]

If a picture is worth a thousand words, in this case comparing two pictures side by side would be worth a few million of yours.

JB

.
Done.

 

[humber]

My comments have nothing to do with any graphics added to his picture.

His vehicle will lose to a paper bag because it isn't built correctly. Like Platt, he needs help. Like Platt, he's decided to go his own way. Like Platt he decided to insult the very people who can help him. Like Platt, it's an entertaining failure.

JB

Not as entertaining as watching you in the street video, as you go into Oprah levels of denial.