Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[LemmyCaution]

Anyone who studies the holohoax will have that surprise, there is no . . . documentary evidence whatever, . . . no records, no nothing to document the holohoax. Instead, we know that the holohoax happened because of the Nuremberg trials ! That's it. The testimony of men who were under immediate threat of execution. That, along with endless propaganda lies from the World Jewish Congress, is ALL the 'evidence' there is of the holohoax.

Since Saggy announced the absence of documentary evidence in an ignorant generalization responding to a point about Ohlendorf, it would also be helpful if Saggy were to explain this in the matter of Ohlendorf: Saggy should elaborate on the lack of documents to substantiate Ohlendorf's claims as well as the stupidity that the threat of execution prompted Ohlendorf's revelations.

 

[Saggy]

Saggy, I asked a couple of what should be very simple questions, and you are apparently unable to answer them. Please try again.

1) please give a reasonably accurate summary of what the mainstream thinks the Holocaust is. This must include all methods and the major locations or regions, with figures that are +/- 250,000 of the most recent consensus among historians. I will start you off: Auschwitz - 1.1 million. Tell us the rest.

2) please tell us whether non-Jewish suffering is also part of the 'holohoax'.


One question you can answer without even looking anything up. The other will test whether you can define what the Holocaust is as it is conventionally understood.

You don't even need to get the numbers exactly right. You just need to be able to demonstrate that you know what it is you're trying to attack, 'cos right now you're failing rather miserably.

The first question is rhetorical and idiotic. Look it up in the dictionary if you are in doubt.

The second question is amusing. Have you read the recent posts on CODOH where it is revealed, in a book review by Deborah Lipstadt no less, that S. Wiesenthal made up the 'five million' non-Jewish victims of the holohoax? LOL. A complete scam.

 

[Nick Terry]

The first question is rhetorical and idiotic. Look it up in the dictionary if you are in doubt.

No, the first question is neither rhetorical nor idiotic. It's a test, which you are failing. So, here it is again:

1) please give a reasonably accurate summary of what the mainstream thinks the Holocaust is. This must include all methods and the major locations or regions, with figures that are +/- 250,000 of the most recent consensus among historians. I will start you off: Auschwitz - 1.1 million. Tell us the rest.

The second question is amusing. Have you read the recent posts on CODOH where it is revealed, in a book review by Deborah Lipstadt no less, that S. Wiesenthal made up the 'five million' non-Jewish victims of the holohoax? LOL. A complete scam.

This is not an answer to the question, so here it is again:

2) please tell us whether non-Jewish suffering is also part of the 'holohoax'.

This asks whether things like the mass murder of mental patients in Aktion T4 by gassing was 'hoaxed'. Meaning, did not happen and was supposedly invented, somehow, by someone. To quote from one of the most infamous denier imbeciles, which is it - hoax or no hoax, yes or no?

 

[Wroclaw]

Which denier imbecile was that?

 

[Nick Terry]

Which denier imbecile was that?

Greg Gerdes is the king of 'yes or no'.

 

[Saggy]

No, the first question is neither rhetorical nor idiotic. It's a test, which you are failing. So, here it is again:

1) please give a reasonably accurate summary of what the mainstream thinks the Holocaust is. This must include all methods and the major locations or regions, with figures that are +/- 250,000 of the most recent consensus among historians. I will start you off: Auschwitz - 1.1 million. Tell us the rest.



This is not an answer to the question, so here it is again:

2) please tell us whether non-Jewish suffering is also part of the 'holohoax'.

This asks whether things like the mass murder of mental patients in Aktion T4 by gassing was 'hoaxed'. Meaning, did not happen and was supposedly invented, somehow, by someone. To quote from one of the most infamous denier imbeciles, which is it - hoax or no hoax, yes or no?

This asks whether things like the mass murder of mental patients in Aktion T4 by gassing was 'hoaxed'.

I don't know much about the euthanasia of mental patients, which I think is not disputed, it's not part of the holohoax. Neither is the forced deportations of the Jews. The holohoax is the five million non-Jewish victims made up by Wiesenthal, along with the six million Jewish victims, made up by Jewish propagandists, starting in 1900 (Rabbi Wise in the NYT).

The holohoax is the lies of Elie Weisel, adults and babies thrown into burning pits at Auschwitz. Babies tossed into the air and used as targets for machine gunners, no less. The babies torn in half by Nazis with their bare hands.

Or do you believe Weisel and Wiernik?

 

[MG1962]

The first question is rhetorical and idiotic. Look it up in the dictionary if you are in doubt.

The second question is amusing. Have you read the recent posts on CODOH where it is revealed, in a book review by Deborah Lipstadt no less, that S. Wiesenthal made up the 'five million' non-Jewish victims of the holohoax? LOL. A complete scam.

Welll ummm ya see it doesn't go like that. Lipstaft was reviewing a bio written by Tom Segev that appeared in the Jewish review

http://www.jewishreviewofbooks.com/publications/detail/simon-wiesenthal-and-the-ethics-of-history

When Israeli historians Yehuda Bauer and Yisrael Gutman challenged Wiesenthal on this point, he admitted that he had invented the figure of eleven million victims in order to stimulate interest in the Holocaust among non-Jews. He chose five million because it was almost, but not quite, as large as six million.

Deborah offers her own thoughts on the controversy

In the 1970s, Wiesenthal began to refer to "eleven million victims" of the Holocaust, six million Jews and five million non-Jews, but the latter number had no basis in historical reality. On the one hand, the total number of non-Jewish civilians killed by the Germans in the course of World War II is far higher than five million. On the other hand, the number of non-Jewish civilians killed for racial or ideological reasons does not come close to five million (though it no doubt would have exceeded it if the war had ended in a German victory).

 

[Wroclaw]

I've come to the conclusion that Saggy is doing one of the following:

(1) Trying to convince people the Holocaust is a hoax, which would have to be considered an abysmal failure, as he doesn't even appear to be trying.

(2) Trying to anger people, at which he is marginally successful.

(3) Trying to discredit Holocaust denial, in which case, well done.

 

[Nick Terry]

This asks whether things like the mass murder of mental patients in Aktion T4 by gassing was 'hoaxed'.

I don't know much about the euthanasia of mental patients, which I think is not disputed, it's not part of the holohoax. Neither is the forced deportations of the Jews. The holohoax is the five million non-Jewish victims made up by Wiesenthal, along with the six million Jewish victims, made up by Jewish propagandists, starting in 1900 (Rabbi Wise in the NYT).

The holohoax is the lies of Elie Weisel, adults and babies thrown into burning pits at Auschwitz. Babies tossed into the air and used as targets for machine gunners, no less. The babies torn in half by Nazis with their bare hands.

Or do you believe Weisel and Wiernik?

This still doesn't answer the first question

1) please give a reasonably accurate summary of what the mainstream thinks the Holocaust is. Not what you think the 'holohoax' is.

And you do, finally, provide an answer, of sorts, to the second question.

I don't know much about the euthanasia of mental patients, which I think is not disputed, it's not part of the holohoax.

Whether or not you think T4 was part of the 'holohoax' is immaterial. The fact remains that T4 is regarded as a crucial part of the Holocaust because it evolved methods and trained personnel who were involved in the genocide of European Jews.

If you are conceding that T4 happened, then this immediately poses problems for you, since T4 was carried out by gassing.

and similarly

Neither is the forced deportations of the Jews.

But the mainstream regards the forced deportations of the Jews as an integral part of the Holocaust. And it also regards a range of other phenomena as equally integral parts, alas you seem unable to spell out what those were.

You see, Saggy, pretty much everyone who has learned even a little bit about the Holocaust knows that 'gassing' and 'mass murder of Jews' were overlapping but not identical phenomena. Many Jews were murdered by means other than gas, and non-Jews were murdered with gas.

Baby-tearing, however, was not among the major methods used, and so cannot define the Holocaust as you seem to think it does.

 

[Nick Terry]

I've come to the conclusion that Saggy is doing one of the following:

(1) Trying to convince people the Holocaust is a hoax, which would have to be considered an abysmal failure, as he doesn't even appear to be trying.

(2) Trying to anger people, at which he is marginally successful.

(3) Trying to discredit Holocaust denial, in which case, well done.

All of the above, although I don't think he realises he is doing (3).

 

[Saggy]

This still doesn't answer the first question

1) please give a reasonably accurate summary of what the mainstream thinks the Holocaust is. Not what you think the 'holohoax' is.

And you do, finally, provide an answer, of sorts, to the second question.



Whether or not you think T4 was part of the 'holohoax' is immaterial. The fact remains that T4 is regarded as a crucial part of the Holocaust because it evolved methods and trained personnel who were involved in the genocide of European Jews.

If you are conceding that T4 happened, then this immediately poses problems for you, since T4 was carried out by gassing.

and similarly



But the mainstream regards the forced deportations of the Jews as an integral part of the Holocaust. And it also regards a range of other phenomena as equally integral parts, alas you seem unable to spell out what those were.

You see, Saggy, pretty much everyone who has learned even a little bit about the Holocaust knows that 'gassing' and 'mass murder of Jews' were overlapping but not identical phenomena. Many Jews were murdered by means other than gas, and non-Jews were murdered with gas.

Baby-tearing, however, was not among the major methods used, and so cannot define the Holocaust as you seem to think it does.

Baby-tearing, however, was not among the major methods used, and so cannot define the Holocaust as you seem to think it does.

Baby-tearing is a degenerate lie, told by one of the most respected and referenced holohoax witnesses, Yankel Wiernik. Tossing babies into the air to be used as targets for machine gunners is a degenerate lie, told by the first director of the USHMM, Elie Weisel. Tossing adults in to one burning pit and babies into another is a degenerate lie, told the Nobel Prize winner and first director of the USHMM Elie Weisel.

The whole holohoax is based on lies like those of Weirnik and Weisel.

 

[MG1962]

The whole holohoax is based on lies like those of Weirnik and Weisel.

And you know this how?

 

[Saggy]

And you know this how?

Glad you asked. Wiernik is one of the most referenced 'eyewitnesses', even though his 'testimony' is phantasmagoria on its face. That is, you don't have to know any history of WW II, or any history generally, to recognize his writing as that of a pathological liar. Nonetheless, he is often cited by the dean of holohoax academics, Raul Hilberg, and Yitzak Arad, director of Yad Vashem. Weisel got a Nobel Prize for his lies, and was the first director of the USHMM. These degenerates epitomize the holohoax.

 

[MG1962]

Glad you asked. Wiernik is one of the most referenced 'eyewitnesses', even though his 'testimony' is phantasmagoria on its face. That is, you don't have to know any history of WW II, or any history generally, to recognize his writing as that of a pathological liar. Nonetheless, he is often cited by the dean of holohoax academics, Raul Hilberg, and Yitzak Arad, director of Yad Vashem. Weisel got a Nobel Prize for his lies, and was the first director of the USHMM. These degenerates epitomize the holohoax.

Okay other than your personal opinion you have not referenced any external verification for your claim. So please, again, how do you know?

 

[Saggy]

Okay other than your personal opinion you have not referenced any external verification for your claim. So please, again, how do you know?

What part of most referenced 'eyewitness' do you not understand? How about the Nobel Prize for peace. The absurdity is boundless.

 

[Nick Terry]

Baby-tearing, however, was not among the major methods used, and so cannot define the Holocaust as you seem to think it does.

Baby-tearing is a degenerate lie, told by one of the most respected and referenced holohoax witnesses, Yankel Wiernik. Tossing babies into the air to be used as targets for machine gunners is a degenerate lie, told by the first director of the USHMM, Elie Weisel. Tossing adults in to one burning pit and babies into another is a degenerate lie, told the Nobel Prize winner and first director of the USHMM Elie Weisel.

The whole holohoax is based on lies like those of Weirnik and Weisel.

None of this gets you any further in answering my questions, which means you continue to fail.

Now, for the third or is it fourth time, please give a reasonably accurate summary of what the mainstream thinks the Holocaust is.

 

[TSR]

What part of most referenced 'eyewitness' do you not understand?

.
The part where you do more than baldly assert it.

How many cites are we talking, and by whom?
.

How about the Nobel Prize for peace.

.
And in what year was Wiernik awarded the Peace Prize?
.

The absurdity is boundless.

[/quote].
And yet, you continue to make claims such as articles soured to the WJC in the NYT during the war specificaly mentioning the Holocaust.

The degenerate liar, posting phantasmagoria here is *you* Saggs
[/quote].

 

[MG1962]

What part of most referenced 'eyewitness' do you not understand? How about the Nobel Prize for peace. The absurdity is boundless.

Sorry being a referenced eyewitness is neither proof or rebuttle. Buz Aldrin is the most referenced eyewitness in history, does not follow he is a liar

And what is the relevance for winning a Nobel prize, and lack of truthfulness. Do you have evidence he made up stories about the Jews in WW2 so he could specifically win the award?

 

[Walter Ego]

Whether or not you think T4 was part of the 'holohoax' is immaterial. The fact remains that T4 is regarded as a crucial part of the Holocaust because it evolved methods and trained personnel who were involved in the genocide of European Jews.

If you are conceding that T4 happened, then this immediately poses problems for you, since T4 was carried out by gassing.

Yes, this does present a problem for the deniers. Action T4 could be termed the prelude to the later genocides, almost a smaller scale rehearsal for the later mass murders.

The same techniques of deception were used too. Authorized by a signed memo by Hitler, the project was top secret and only officially ended when word leaked out and an RC bishop preached against the program in a Sunday sermon.

The victims were taken to remote "hospitals," led into shower rooms and the gas (carbon monoxide) was pumped in through metal pipes (which Saggy doesn't think is possible) and the bodies were cremated (for "hygienic" reasons) to prevent the families of the dead requesting autopsies.

It would be very interesting (and very stupid) if Saggy admits to the reality of Action T4.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Yes, this does present a problem for the deniers. Action T4 could be termed the prelude to the later genocides, almost a smaller scale rehearsal for the later mass murders.

The same techniques of deception were used too. Authorized by a signed memo by Hitler, the project was top secret and only officially ended when word leaked out and an RC bishop preached against the program in a Sunday sermon.

The victims were taken to remote "hospitals," led into shower rooms and the gas (carbon monoxide) was pumped in through metal pipes (which Saggy doesn't think is possible) and the bodies were cremated (for "hygienic" reasons) to prevent the families of the dead requesting autopsies.

It would be very interesting (...]and very stupid[/URL]) if Saggy admits to the reality of Action T4.

And something like 90 T4 staff were transferred to Aktion Reinhardt camps, and among AR camp commandants were former T4 honchos Wirth (Hartheim, Belzec, AR camps inspector) and Stangl (Hartheim, Sobibor, Treblinka).

As to what Saggy will fess up to, they usually deny the gas chambers and other T4 killings with almost the tenacity of their death camp denial.