Merged Molten metal observations

[Eschat]

Incorrect. I gave you 3 different fires that caused the complete collapse of all the steel framed structure.





How about the Imperial Sugar fire in Savannah GA.

Here is a picture of melted aluminum. From a SUGAR fire of all things....

http://spotted.savannahnow.com/images/12/photos/2009/07/12/gallery/4789468.jpg


No, google grain elevator explosions to understand the power of a FAE.

I am talking about the tons that were found in the basements. But I will say you did provide a small confirmation of your point.

I want something that compares to the amount that was found in 9/11 towers and WTC 7. There have been lots of fires much hotter and much longer than those of 9/11, so I would think it would be easy to find another fire that produced similar results of molten metal. But there are only things like you just linked. A little pool, nothing major.

 

[Eschat]

Aluminum melts anywhere from 475 to 660 degrees Celsius depending on the alloy. All modern aircraft including the 767 that hit the south tower are made from 2000 series alloys. The type of alloy that was in the planes probably melted at about 550 degrees celsius, but that doesn't matter because the fires were anywhere from 800-1000 degrees celsius.



So, we know what temperature the fires were and that they would have melted some of the 67 or so thousand of kilos of aluminium.

We know why the fires were still this hot up until that time, in that corner. The impact crushed piles of debris into it, as evidenced by this picture.

We know why it was flowing outwards, some trusses on the 81st floor broke from the outside of the building, still attached to the core, so material flowed out the 80th floor windows, as evidenced by this picture).

So, checkmate. Please reply with the theories and mathematics concerning what is wrong with any piece of this analysis.

.
This might explain the collapse of one floor and the molten metal coming out of the tower, but it does not explain the collapse itself, nor the nearly free fall aspects of the collapse. I really wish however you were right from my point of view. I'm not interested in winning a game of chess. I interested in the world surviving overall, without another dark age.

You have made a good point, even if I trusted NIST I would still have a hard time with more than one or two floors collapsing.

Here is another video I like, it starts slow but after about the one minute mark it gets into some of the science that I feel proves the NIST tests are not the complete picture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMLUgVV0hT8

 

[Travis]

Eschat, again, are you claiming that there was still thermite oxidizing three weeks after the collapse?

 

[Eschat]

Eschat, again, are you claiming that there was still thermite oxidizing three weeks after the collapse?

Travis,

No I do not claim that, I also do not believe that is what was causing the molten metal to remain so hot for so long. I do not have an answer for that problem to be honest.

I have not heard reasonable explanation from either side of the 9/11 debate to satisfies me. But there must be a reason, it is a fact the molten metal remained hot for nearly three weeks.

So no I do not believe thermite was oxidizing 3 weeks after the collaspe as some claim. I still do not have an answer for the molten metal 3 weeks after the collapse.

I have no answer to explain that, however I wish I did.

 

[alienentity]

I am talking about the tons that were found in the basements. But I will say you did provide a small confirmation of your point.

Tons? Where is that documented, and what was done with the alleged tons?

There have been lots of fires much hotter and much longer than those of 9/11, so I would think it would be easy to find another fire that produced similar results of molten metal.

Look no further than WTC 6. According to the PBS documentary 'America Rebuilds', molten metal was witnessed there as well.

Underground it was still so hot that molten metal dripped down the sides of the wall from Building 6. Cars - both burned and pristine - were suspended in the air balanced on cracked parking garage slabs.

Here WTC 6 is over my head. The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running.
http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_debris_06.html

Yet there is no (read ZERO) evidence that this molten metal was the product of a thermite reaction in WTC 6, in fact nobody - not even truthers - are suggesting that.
So we accept that an office fire in an office building like WTC 6 can produce molten metal, on 9/11. That's because it just makes sense to do so.

The weird claims truthers such as yourself attach themselves to are another matter entirely - these simply do not make sense. Your numerous bare assertions, incorrect as they are, are the main evidence of this lack of sense and basic ignorance of facts. Let me give one example:

Since the 9/11 fire was was a very cool oxygen starved fire

'The' 9/11 fire? LOL There were many fires on 9/11 inside and outside buildings. There is zero evidence that these were special 'very cool' fires. Funny it seems a little oxymoronic to refer to a fire as 'cool' - I think you're rather overselling your idea, wrong as it is. You might as well refer to the fires as 'ice cold, even chilly fires', that's how absurd your idea is.

Tri has already schooled you on the old 'black smoke = oxygen starved' canard. There may very well be something oxygen starved at play here, but it wasn't the fire, it's more likely between your ears, frankly.

 

[Joey McGee]

.
This might explain the collapse of one floor and the molten metal coming out of the tower, but it does not explain the collapse itself, nor the nearly free fall aspects of the collapse. I really wish however you were right from my point of view. I'm not interested in winning a game of chess. I interested in the world surviving overall, without another dark age.

You have made a good point, even if I trusted NIST I would still have a hard time with more than one or two floors collapsing.

Here is another video I like, it starts slow but after about the one minute mark it gets into some of the science that I feel proves the NIST tests are not the complete picture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMLUgVV0hT8

I am happy for you that you admitted I debunked your theory about thermite causing the flow of metal out of the south tower . Am I correct in assuming you'll never use that argument again? Are you at least more skeptical about the other theories that you have?

THE COLLAPSE

Explaining how the collapse got started is simple. The fires caused the trusses to bow in until the outer columns snapped like twigs. You can actually see this happen on video. Go to this video and line your cursor up on the timebar at 2:18. Click over and over again. It's incredible to watch happen, and I'm sure you've never seen it before. Now watch the whole thing. I'll assume that after watching that video, the initial collapse is completely explainable to you.

This is where it should end, it's insane to think that the planners intended for the building to collapse, and at that exact moment, triggered the thermite on the floors below, but I'll continue with the progressive collapse.

FREE FALL

If you simply watch these 20 seconds of video, I'm sure you'll never use the "free fall" argument again. It's conclusive proof, right? Great. Watch the rest of the video. Wow, 22 seconds! You might ask yourself why the north tower took 22 seconds and the south tower took 15. Simple, the plane that hit the north tower struck higher up on the tower, so there was less weight to crush the floors below, more evidence for a natural collapse.

THE PANCAKE

It's tempting to think of the building below the collapse as a solid object, but this is not the case. The structure is made up of hundreds of individual trusses and columns. When the weight came down after the intial collapse started, the top acted as a separate block from the rest of the buildings, and landed on the next floor with 30 times it's own weight, which would be enough to collapse that floor. Technically, they were collapsing one by one, and the collapse time, about twice freefall, supports this conclusion. If you still doubt what the official version of the progressive collapse means, this paper will explain it in detail.

So, checkmate.

It's not a game for me either. My time spent as a truther had serious consequences for my personal and professional life. I wouldn't engage in debunking if there wasn't an altruistic motive behind it. I decided I should spend ten times as much time debunking as I did spreading the theories. I suggest you do the same. It seems you have your heart in the right place, and you've certainly come to the right place

Forget being skeptical about 9/11 for awhile, and start being skeptical about your own skepticism! I recommend this to start. Peace

 

[leftysergeant]

There are no cases of complete collapses except 9/11.

No cases of large pools of molten metal in basements or on the floors incinerated buildings.[/B]

Uh, dude? That business about the pools of molten metal in the basement? There is no evidence of any other metals than lead or brass pooling anywhere, and the lead and brass were only under WTC 6. You would be amazed how hot nitrocellulose can get when it burns.

As for the molten iron that some useless piece of detritus claimed was in the basements of the towers, that came out of a Nazi creepazoid's underwear.

Do you actually consider Chris Bollyn a credible source?

Maybe i should hire him to be my agent to sell this toll bridge that I own. May my agent contact you? We're only asking about $2 million.

 

[tsig]

The fire in WTC did burn hot enough to melt light gauge aluminum. But most of that aluminum was on the outside of the building. Yes the plane would have brought some of it in with it but the fire did not burn hot enough or long enough to cause the molten aluminum to begin pooling.

You can melt aluminum in your barbecue if you stoke it long enough with lighter fluid. But within 20 seconds of the time you stop stoking it with fuel it stops melting and stops pooling and again becomes a solid. Since the 9/11 fire was was a very cool oxygen starved fire I find it impossible to believe that there was any metal of any type other that lead that could be melted at those low temperatures. Lead was mostly outlawed even when the towers were built, so that cannot be the answer.

It has to be Thermite of some-type. Nothing else could produce so much molten metal in the basements.

Now for those that just want facts remember the following. The facts for melting points of metals can be answered by any structural engineering or industrial welding corporation you call. These facts will be the same if you look for them in the 1960's, 70's *80's or 2011. Why, because the facts of question 2 and 3 have existed and been known since the 1940's. Steel temperature melting points is a science that has been studied since ancient times. In the last century it has become nearly a perfect science. So the facts about when steel melts at different grades is absolute depending on the grade of steel.

Once you have those facts then you will know for sure that there was nothing in the towers that could burn hot enough to cause molten steel to pour out of the tower. Once you know these facts then it is just a process of elimination and logic on what was melting the steel in the towers. That should make it much easier to determine what possible things exist in the world that could cause molten steel to pour out while the tower is still standing. The facts regarding metals melting points are not open to debate, they are known and have been known and accepted as facts longer than you and I have been alive. So focus on the facts, not all the other disinformation. Then from there work yourself through the other questions.

The people responsible for 9/11 want you to wear yourself out and to get lost in all the other theories so you do not focus on the absolute facts that are already known about metals melting points. All the proof you need is right here in and the video at the top. If you don't understand this, then any other research on 9/11 would be pointless. Stick with the facts that cannot be ruled out by anyone no matter how many other points of view are presented.

Metal's melting point are are well known fact and a true science that has been known in the modern age for most metals for over 100 years. Jet fuel temperatures are well known for the last fifty years. The history of structural steel buildings collapsing due to fire for the last 100 years is also well known, none had ever collapsed before 9/11 and none has collapsed since 9/11.

If the structural steel was melted what was holding up the building?

 

[dafydd]

Travis,

No I do not claim that, I also do not believe that is what was causing the molten metal to remain so hot for so long. I do not have an answer for that problem to be honest.

I have not heard reasonable explanation from either side of the 9/11 debate to satisfies me. But there must be a reason, it is a fact the molten metal remained hot for nearly three weeks.

So no I do not believe thermite was oxidizing 3 weeks after the collaspe as some claim. I still do not have an answer for the molten metal 3 weeks after the collapse.

I have no answer to explain that, however I wish I did.

The answer is that you know nothing about science.

 

[Eschat]

you have a funny way of showing it. Come back when you decide to be serious.

If you are really serious, I mean REALLY serious then please watch this video from start to finish then provide me your comments. Seriously anyone who would like to comment on the contents of this video related to Thermate please watch all of it and comment.

In about 15 hours from now, give or take an hour or so I will read them. What is your opinion of this video, please give your serious opinion.

Here is the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d5iIoCiI8g

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Here is the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d5iIoCiI8g

Done to death already

 

[Oystein]

It's doing good. Thanks for asking. How are you doing?

Several months ago you promised us an abstract, or maybe a draft for an abstract. Can you provide one shortly? Thanks.

 

[Quad4_72]

The video above focuses on the fire, the molten steel for 3 weeks in the basements of all three buildings and molten steel coming from the window before the collapse. Only a dislodged Thermite pre-demolition cutter charge that was still operational could cause molten steel to come out of the window. It was one of the bloopers of the 9/11 planners that failed for those smart enough to understand what they are looking at, when they see the molten steel pouring out the window. It is the 9/11 smoking gun. Unpressurized Jet fuel burns at about 800 degrees. That's it 800 degrees tops, yet it takes 1600 degrees to melt steel.
http://propheticseasons.wordpress.com/911-truthers-911-truth-911-conspiracy/

The part I bolded in your post is probably the largest flaw in your line of reasoning and in your research in general. Look up how hot an office fire burns. It burns many many degrees hotter then jet fuel. And as others have informed you, steel is not what was pouring out of the towers, it was more likely aluminum or a mix of some other alloy that melts at a much lower temperature.

 

[Sunstealer]

If you are really serious, I mean REALLY serious then please watch this video from start to finish then provide me your comments. Seriously anyone who would like to comment on the contents of this video related to Thermate please watch all of it and comment.

In about 15 hours from now, give or take an hour or so I will read them. What is your opinion of this video, please give your serious opinion.

Here is the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d5iIoCiI8g

It's trash. Been seen here before, commented on before.

ASTM A36 is about 7850Kg/m³ (17306lb) or 7.85 metric tons per cubic meter. So a cube, 1 meter long on all sides weighs 7.85 tons.

Eschat - how many tons or tonnes of steel were observed in the liquid state? How did people actually measure that? How did people know it was steel? Let's say it was aluminium alloy, say 2014, which is 2800Kg/m³, almost a third as dense. The same volume of liquid would weigh less wouldn't it? So how can people be judging weight when they don't know what the material is?

You can't know the temperature of a metal by it's colour unless you know what the material is first. You are making the assumption that the material is steel. You have no basis for this.

What happens to a liquid steel or aluminium when it cools to room temperature? If you know the answer it should set you on the right path.

 

[Travis]

Travis,

No I do not claim that, I also do not believe that is what was causing the molten metal to remain so hot for so long. I do not have an answer for that problem to be honest.

I have not heard reasonable explanation from either side of the 9/11 debate to satisfies me. But there must be a reason, it is a fact the molten metal remained hot for nearly three weeks.

So no I do not believe thermite was oxidizing 3 weeks after the collaspe as some claim. I still do not have an answer for the molten metal 3 weeks after the collapse.

I have no answer to explain that, however I wish I did.

If you don't think it has anything to do with thermite then are you asking about it purely because you are ignorant and want to know?

Well, if there was molten metal, here's what I think happened: the pile made a great natural blast furnace. You could get a low oxygen fire going deep under it that was fed just enough air from the subway system below it to melt stuff.

 

[ozeco41]

If you are really serious, I mean REALLY serious then please watch this video from start to finish then provide me your comments. Seriously anyone who would like to comment on the contents of this video related to Thermate please watch all of it and comment.

In about 15 hours from now, give or take an hour or so I will read them. What is your opinion of this video, please give your serious opinion.

Here is the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d5iIoCiI8g

You persist in getting this game arse about. I and several others have given you serious and technically accurate answers.

It is you who needs to get serious and stop behaving in this dishonest and insulting manner. You are not the first person to come to this forum parroting truther crap and showing no willingness to listen.

The video is a sham narrated by a liar. If you want a sample of the lies I am prepared to answer say three of them. My choice which three. Probably the first three off the film so in less than thirty seconds of the start at a guess. No way am I going to jump to your nonsense claims and prepare detailed rebuttals of any more answers. Some other members here may do so - they can be very generous even with idiotic claims.

Just as a guide take this four:
1) There was no molten steel;
2) There was no thermite/thermate used;
3) Jones did not find thermXte in the dust;
4) There is no mystery in iron microspheres.

I have no intention of doing your work for you. The proof of those four is readily available to you.

 

[Joey McGee]

If you are really serious, I mean REALLY serious then please watch this video from start to finish then provide me your comments. Seriously anyone who would like to comment on the contents of this video related to Thermate please watch all of it and comment.

In about 15 hours from now, give or take an hour or so I will read them. What is your opinion of this video, please give your serious opinion.

Here is the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d5iIoCiI8g

Most of the people that are commenting here have heard every single 9/11 conspiracy theory before. No one wants to spend 15 minutes having a review. What would be a more productive course of action is, make specific claims, and give specific references, using as few words as possible. If you want to link to a video, link to the exact time of what you want to show using http://youtubetime.com/ Take the time to do that if you want to actually have a response worth doing anything with. In 15 minutes a truther can make more claims then it would take to properly debunk in an entire day if you were referencing everything, explaining everything, and correcting misconceptions about your earlier explanations.

 

[triforcharity]

Travis,

No I do not claim that, I also do not believe that is what was causing the molten metal to remain so hot for so long. I do not have an answer for that problem to be honest.

You do realize that an ENORMOUS fire was burning under there for 99 days, right?

You do realize that to date, you have yet to show any evidence of pools of molten metal in the basements of 1,2 and 7 WTC.

In fact, if I recall correctly, 7WTC did not have a basement so to speak, as it was built over a ConEd sbstation.

But, could there have been motel metal in the basements? Sure. Why not? Huge fires burned in the rubble piles. There are quite a few metals that melt below 1500 deg. F that I posted earlier.

 

[NoahFence]

But, could there have been motel metal in the basements? Sure. Why not? Huge fires burned in the rubble piles. There are quite a few metals that melt below 1500 deg. F that I posted earlier.

About the fires in the basement....

How many cars do you suppose those 5 level garages under the building hold?

 

[triforcharity]

About the fires in the basement....

How many cars do you suppose those 5 level garages under the building hold?

Maybe 200 or so? I am not sure to be honest. I am having a hard time finding much information about the layout. I don't ever remember running any alarms to the parking area to be honest.