Merged Molten metal observations

[jaydeehess]

.In the 100 year history of structural steel buildings, none has ever collapse due to fire. ......... Historical fact and precedents matter. No matter the evidence a person presents, you cannot ignore the history.

Incorrect, though there are few cases of COMPLETE collapse due to fire there are hundreds of examples of partial collapses that prove that steel is affected to the point of failure by fire alone. Yes, precedents do indeed matter, in fact they gave rise to fire codes that require passive fire insulation of structural steel BECAUSE steel can and has failed due to fire!

What has NEVER occured in all of history are wide area, multi-floor , unfought fires in long truss, open span steel structures with no multilevel cross bracing.
What has never occured in history is a large, well fueled jet airliner being deliberatly flown at high speed into large office buildings.

 

[jaydeehess]

.we can debate 9/11 for 10 more years. No one in the government is going to tell you the truth, even if they wanted too.

What you mean is no one is ever going to tell you what you want to hear. There are TWO possibilities;
1) they are not telling the truth
2) you are wrong

 

[ozeco41]

.

You know people want to believe good things about those who govern us, me included. I believe 9/11 was a false flag attack, and inside job with mostly good intentioned people. I also believe this attack represented only a small part of the American government that was involved. I also believe the honest parts of our government thwarted it once revealed to them....

I am not American however...

I am bemused why people like yourself who claim to have a genuine interest in dealing with Government misconduct and the covering up of misconduct adopt ridiculous dishonest tactics to make their point.

There is not the slightest case for demolition at WTC on 9/11 so why, if you have a genuine desire to clean up government, why tie your claim to the dead set loser of untruthful clams for demolition?

American politicians may be different to Australian ones BUT if I tried to make a case to a politician with the escape clause so obviously written in I would expect to be disregarded.

For any politician to pay attention to your claims requires him/her to act like a fool and believe lies. Whether or not politicians tell lies they sure as hell don't like being lied to. Unless US politicians are different to Aussie ones.

So fix your tactics is you want to get anywhere.

However if you simply want to troll this forum then ignore my advice. Go ahead. Many of us here can churn out the answers to every silly claim put forward.

 

[Eschat]

You seem to have missed it where you have been asked "What causes you to assume the molten material is steel?"
Its been pointed out that molten aluminum is present on many other fires.

I did not say molten steel I said

"none of them had pools of molten metal in their basements"

Aluminum melts in a barbecues if it is of a thin enough gauge. In fact if the fire is hot enough long enough Aluminum will actually start to vaporize. But regardless of that point I have no proof that aluminum or any other metal in any other fire in history had any substantial quantities like were found at 9/11.

In fact I know of no structural fire to even compare it with. If you have one please provide me the link so I can be amazed at my error and educated correctly by the provision of your link.

 

[oody]

.
I believe 9/11 was a false flag attack, and inside job with mostly good intentioned people.

Some of those Good Intentioned People who murder by the thousands? Got to break a few eggs to make an omelette, I suppose, but come on. I don't think I've ever met any people I would call Good Intentioned, who would countenance such an act. Have you? Care to elaborate on their motivation?

 

[Eschat]

I am not American however...

I am bemused why people like yourself who claim to have a genuine interest in dealing with Government misconduct and the covering up of misconduct adopt ridiculous dishonest tactics to make their point.

There is not the slightest case for demolition at WTC on 9/11 so why, if you have a genuine desire to clean up government, why tie your claim to the dead set loser of untruthful clams for demolition?

American politicians may be different to Australian ones BUT if I tried to make a case to a politician with the escape clause so obviously written in I would expect to be disregarded.

For any politician to pay attention to your claims requires him/her to act like a fool and believe lies. Whether or not politicians tell lies they sure as hell don't like being lied to. Unless US politicians are different to Aussie ones.

So fix your tactics is you want to get anywhere.

However if you simply want to troll this forum then ignore my advice. Go ahead. Many of us here can churn out the answers to every silly claim put forward.

Believe what you want, your version of 9/11 truth is as you see it, right or wrong. Dig Deeper or not, your choice.

 

[ozeco41]

Believe what you want, your version of 9/11 truth is as you see it, right or wrong. Dig Deeper or not, your choice.

Evasion. I spoke about your tactics - you are on a loser trying to sell lies.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

.In the 100 year history of structural steel buildings, none has ever collapse due to fire. Of the structural steel buildings that have burned by fire with much hotter temperatures and much longer time frames, none of them had pools of molten metal in their basements. This simple paragraph should cause any thinking person to pause. Historical fact and precedents matter. No matter the evidence a person presents, you cannot ignore the history.

To accept that logic means that thermite becomes a non-starter. No high rise building in history has ever been demolished through the use of thermite. You cannot ignore history. If you intend to apply this first time in history logic you need to be prepared for the implications it has when making your other arguments. To reject the application to your thermite theory means to drop the first time in history argument for fire initiated collapse.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

The key issue which seems to have received little attention is "No matter what the molten material how does it all get to be in one place to pour in a single cascade?"

No thermite obsessed truther has ever explained how the molten material from multiple alleged thermite cuts at varying distances from the discharge point could be brought together to flow out in a single cascade.

Truther idiocies aside I know of no detailed explanation from rational people either - other than suggestions that sloping floor slabs acted as some form of channelling.

Or explaining how this is the only observed instance in either tower taking place more than an hour after the planes hit. It stands to reason that if the planes were responsible for dislodging and ingniting the substance, that given the amounts they proclaim to have been present, more of these would have been detected.

 

[Eschat]

Some of those Good Intentioned People who murder by the thousands? Got to break a few eggs to make an omelette, I suppose, but come on. I don't think I've ever met any people I would call Good Intentioned, who would countenance such an act. Have you? Care to elaborate on their motivation?

.
China, oil resources, geo-political power for the next 30 years, but most importantly the nuclear proliferation problems that are developing in the middle east. We needed a long stay in the middle east, not a short one in order to try to prevent that.

It's too late for that now really, all we can do is try to stop it through a world order. If we don't and terrorists end up having access to a large stockpiles of nuclear weapons to put on trucks or ships, maybe another set of airplanes then the world is done, one nuclear weapon at a time.

I understand why they did it. Does not make it right, it is still murder. But left with the alternatives 3,000 dead is better with the hopes of changing the outcome by being allowed to stay in the middle east long enough, than hundreds of millions possibly billions of dead because Congress and the American people would not allow the government to stay in the middle east long enough to be successful.

It's about getting control of the nukes and the oil. If it does not occur soon through a world order, then the world can say hello to the dark ages.

To many are distracted that things are going to continue on like they have in the past. Not a chance nuclear proliferation changes that.

 

[ozeco41]

Or explaining how this is the only observed instance in either tower taking place more than an hour after the planes hit. It stands to reason that if the planes were responsible for dislodging and ingniting the substance, that given the amounts they proclaim to have been present, more of these would have been detected.

Yes. Doesn't it get boring pointing out the inconsistencies and lack of logic in truther cases.

Sad thing is the truthers we get here are mostly in it for the trolling so playing "false flag" as truthers. So every time "we" respond and fail to cross every "I" and dot every "T" ( yeah, well ) "they" will jump on the missing detail. Any excuse will keep their game rolling. Hence why I rarely respond except to the recent golden opportunity presented by Eschat.

 

[Joey McGee]

Aluminum melts anywhere from 475 to 660 degrees Celsius depending on the alloy. All modern aircraft including the 767 that hit the south tower are made from 2000 series alloys. The type of alloy that was in the planes probably melted at about 550 degrees celsius, but that doesn't matter because the fires were anywhere from 800-1000 degrees celsius.

NIST

5. How did NIST derive the temperatures in the WTC Towers and how valid are they?

Using all the visual and physical evidence available, NIST conducted simulations of the fires in each of the towers from the time of airplane impact to the collapses. The computational model used to simulate the fires was the Fire Dynamics Simulator. This model had been validated in numerous experiments and fire recreations prior to the World Trade Center Investigation. Additional large-scale experiments conducted during the Investigation (NIST NCSTAR 1-5) provided further assurance of the validity of the model output. This output was in the form of maps of the air temperatures on each of the floors over the duration of the fires (shown in NIST NCSTAR 1-5F).

In a following set of computations using the Fire Structure Interface, the evolving temperatures of the concrete and steel structural components of the towers were calculated by exposing them to the mapped air temperatures (shown in NIST NCSTAR 1-5G).

Both sets of computations are based on the fundamental laws of combustion, heat transfer, and air flow. The methods have been documented extensively and have been successfully subjected to technical peer review and published in professional journals.

So, we know what temperature the fires were and that they would have melted some of the 67 or so thousand of kilos of aluminium.

We know why the fires were still this hot up until that time, in that corner. The impact crushed piles of debris into it, as evidenced by this picture.

We know why it was flowing outwards, some trusses on the 81st floor broke from the outside of the building, still attached to the core, so material flowed out the 80th floor windows, as evidenced by this picture).

So, checkmate. Please reply with the theories and mathematics concerning what is wrong with any piece of this analysis.

 

[triforcharity]

Unpressurized Jet fuel burns at about 800 degrees. That's it 800 degrees tops, yet it takes 1600 degrees to melt steel.

Source? I know for a fact that jet fuel will in fact produce heat in the 200 deg. F range.

In 4 minutes.

Are you talking F or C?

Watch the video at the top for more information. After you watch the 9/11 video at the top ask yourself then answer to yourself the following questions.

Ok. Will do.

Question 1: What is causing the molten steel to pour out the window of the towers shown in the first minute in the video above?

Proof that it is molten steel?

Question 2: At what temperature does industrial grade structural steel melt?

Between 2600 and 2800 deg. F.

Question 3: What is the highest temperature possible for Jet fuel?

Since it would be a hydrocarbon, it would be in the 1800-2000 deg. F range.

But, it's a strawman, because by this point in the day, the jet fuel has long since burned off.

What's left is a massive hydrocarbon fire.

 

[triforcharity]

But considering the amount found in the basements in each building

Evidence? Linky?

 

[triforcharity]

The fire in WTC did burn hot enough to melt light gauge aluminum.

Incorrect. Aluminum melts at 1000 deg. F, typically. Hydrocarbon fires burn at around 1500 average, but can and will reach the 1800-2000 deg. F range.

Do you need a calculator?

But most of that aluminum was on the outside of the building. Yes the plane would have brought some of it in with it but the fire did not burn hot enough or long enough to cause the molten aluminum to begin pooling.

Incorrect again. See above. Also, did you forfet about the plane? Guess what the skin is made of?

You can melt aluminum in your barbecue if you stoke it long enough with lighter fluid. But within 20 seconds of the time you stop stoking it with fuel it stops melting and stops pooling and again becomes a solid.

I'll agree, but it's silly, considering that the hydrocarbon fires continued to burn.

Since the 9/11 fire was was a very cool oxygen starved fire

Incorrect. Let me guess, you think that black smoke=oxygen starved?

It's wrong. Patently false. Call any fire department and ask them.

Or, look at this picture.

Or this one.

Black smoke is not indictive of how hot the fire is, but what is burning.

I find it impossible to believe that there was any metal of any type other that lead that could be melted at those low temperatures. Lead was mostly outlawed even when the towers were built, so that cannot be the answer.

Both statements are in fact incorrect.

Aluminum, tin, lead, Cadmium (found in many batteries in the early 2000's) , Magnesium ( many computer cases are made with a magnesium alloy) , Selenium ( found in almost all copiers, and is found in damn near every single DC transformer, and DC surge protectors) , and zinc (used primarily as an anti-corrosive, but also used in batteries and also in copiers) all melt below 1500 deg. F.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/melting-temperature-metals-d_860.html

Can we rule them out?


Lead was found in the UPS supplies that were installed all over the towers, and some taking up entire floors. They used lead-acid batteries. Lead paint was banned in 1977. The towers were built in the 1960's.

It has to be Thermite of some-type. Nothing else could produce so much molten metal in the basements.

See above.

Now for those that just want facts remember the following. The facts for melting points of metals can be answered by any structural engineering or industrial welding corporation you call. These facts will be the same if you look for them in the 1960's, 70's *80's or 2011. Why, because the facts of question 2 and 3 have existed and been known since the 1940's. Steel temperature melting points is a science that has been studied since ancient times. In the last century it has become nearly a perfect science. So the facts about when steel melts at different grades is absolute depending on the grade of steel.

Wow, correct.

Once you have those facts then you will know for sure that there was nothing in the towers that could burn hot enough to cause molten steel to pour out of the tower.

Incorrect, as already shown above.

Once you know these facts then it is just a process of elimination and logic on what was melting the steel in the towers. That should make it much easier to determine what possible things exist in the world that could cause molten steel to pour out while the tower is still standing. The facts regarding metals melting points are not open to debate, they are known and have been known and accepted as facts longer than you and I have been alive. So focus on the facts, not all the other disinformation. Then from there work yourself through the other questions.

Maybe it wasn't steel? Since you cannot rule out the metals I listed up-post, we cannot jump to steel and thermite.

The people responsible for 9/11 want you to wear yourself out and to get lost in all the other theories so you do not focus on the absolute facts that are already known about metals melting points. All the proof you need is right here in and the video at the top. If you don't understand this, then any other research on 9/11 would be pointless. Stick with the facts that cannot be ruled out by anyone no matter how many other points of view are presented.

Wow, cool rant bro!

Metal's melting point are are well known fact and a true science that has been known in the modern age for most metals for over 100 years.

Wow, correct again.

Jet fuel temperatures are well known for the last fifty years.

Too bad you get them wrong.

The history of structural steel buildings collapsing due to fire for the last 100 years is also well known, none had ever collapsed before 9/11 and none has collapsed since 9/11.

Incorrect again. Your batting average SUCKS!!

Kader Toy Factory.
Sight and Sound Theatre
Sofa King store, Charleston SC.


There are three. There are plenty more.

 

[Java Man]

Molten aluminum, or other lower temp(than steel) molten materials such as copper or glass, could flow to a partially collapsed floor section in the corner and be kept molten by the office fire heat. As the structure tilts further the pool then is also tilted and this allows a stream to escape the tower.

A few questions.

Can molten aluminum, glass or copper shape into a vertical wall of said material and remain vertical in defiance of gravity?

What type or composition of a red hot vertical wall of material could produce a stream as seen on the video? Particularly in the obvious lack of any heat source nearby of sufficient intensity to melt it directly.

 

[Eschat]

Incorrect, though there are few cases of COMPLETE collapse due to fire there are hundreds of examples of partial collapses that prove that steel is affected to the point of failure by fire alone. Yes, precedents do indeed matter, in fact they gave rise to fire codes that require passive fire insulation of structural steel BECAUSE steel can and has failed due to fire!

What has NEVER occurred in all of history are wide area, multi-floor , un-fought fires in long truss, open span steel structures with no multilevel cross bracing. What has never occurred in history is a large, well fueled jet airliner being deliberately flown at high speed into large office buildings.

There are no cases of complete collapses except 9/11. No cases of large pools of molten metal in basements or on the floors incinerated buildings. Still waiting for your link.

I agree with you however that there has been partial collapses, but these partial collapses have no free fall or demolition type of collapse aspects. The partial collapses are floors that broke apart in pieces and then fell, usually teetering to the left or right as they fell.

Links please

 

[Joey McGee]

I should've known better than to hope for a discussion of the Buick 215 in the 9/11 section. I mean, guys, really, what's more important, 9/11 or cars?

If you flew a 1962 Buick Skylark into the side of the World Trade Center at 550 miles an hour would the 215 engine smash all the way through the building and fly across the city?

 

[Java Man]

The resultant liquid metal could not have come from any other site. It could not have croosed concrete floors from the core to get there. Unless the interior were as hot as the furnace in a foundry, it would cool and solidify on the way there. It just doesn't get that freaking HOT.

Agreed, but still doesn't prove a uneven distribution of thermite. Just an uneven accumulation. Which is an entirely different thing.

 

[triforcharity]

There are no cases of complete collapses except 9/11.

Incorrect. I gave you 3 different fires that caused the complete collapse of all the steel framed structure.

No cases of large pools of molten metal in basements or on the floors incinerated buildings. Still waiting for your link.

How about the Imperial Sugar fire in Savannah GA.

Here is a picture of melted aluminum. From a SUGAR fire of all things....

http://spotted.savannahnow.com/images/12/photos/2009/07/12/gallery/4789468.jpg


No, google grain elevator explosions to understand the power of a FAE.