'Lost Civilisations'

[Marduk]

Schoch is a well known alternate history author, he has no credibility, or qualifications in Egyptology. His book "Voyages of the pyramid builders claims that all the pyramids in the world were built by a lost civlisation from sundaland. I can't think of a single other geologist who agrees with him,

"Well, the evidence has been destroyed by natural catastrophes/accidentally destroyed by people/deliberately destroyed by people/discovered but later lost/ignored by 'mainstream' researchers/deliberately suppressed by jealous rival researchers/misinterpreted by ignorant 'mainstream' researchers/suppressed by the government. So that proves there were marvelous lost civilizations. They just won't let us find out about them."

if the shoe fits.....

 

[King of the Americas]

Puma Punku seems to have been erected in the 7th and 8th century, (600-800 C.E. (A.D.)). As for method of construction obviously lots of drag, logs as rollers etc., ...

You do realize that the roofs of the buildings at Machu Picchu had thatch roofs? ...

Archaeologists have been working for years about how the Incas did it. For a good start to learning about Inca stone work see McEwan, pp. 171-178, & D'Altroy, pp. 309-310.

Carving descending squares into diorite, and some 30 squared faces onto hundreds of individual stones, so uniformly that they fit together like stone legos...without a written language and only bronze age tools "is not possible".

 

[Marduk]

Carving descending squares into diorite, and some 30 squared faces onto hundreds of individual stones, so uniformly that they fit together like stone legos...without a written language and only bronze age tools "is not possible".

not possible = personal incredulity, its been proven possible thousands of times in the last 5000 years

what youre actually saying here is that youre closed minded and not open to any evidence that doesn't support an idea you came up with before you even looked at any evidence

thats pretty pathetic, do you still believe in santa too


heres a complete list of the carbon dates from the entire complex (i.e. not just the one temple youve taken out of context)

but please don't let this dissuade you from continuing to talk utter crap about subjects you have no knowledge of, that would after all be completely out of character for you

 

[King of the Americas]

not possible = personal incredulity, its been proven possible thousands of times in the last 5000 years

...

but please don't let this dissuade you from continuing to talk utter crap about subjects you have no knowledge of, that would after all be completely out of character for you

Show me someone cutting one of those stones with a bronze age chisel, and I'll shut my yap.

If you can show me two people cut identical stones, such that they could fit together, WITHOUT written instructions, using ONLY period tools, and I'll concede.

I still hold that those stones represent the work of a lost technology, and could NOT have been made with conventional period tools.

 

[Elizabeth I]

What exactly is it in the construction you find so advanced?

The corners were really, really, really square.

 

[Pup]

not possible = personal incredulity, its been proven possible thousands of times in the last 5000 years

This reminds me of a museum tour I went on years ago, where a guide showed handsaw marks on the surface of a large piece of wood, that showed the cabinetmaker had sawed halfway through to the middle, then started from the other side and sawed to the middle again, exactly meeting his previous saw-cut. She pointed out the incredible skill it must have taken to do that, aligning the saw only by hand.

Years later, studying period cabinetmaking, I learned it was a trivial trick, which did require only a handsaw and no aligning tool, but which was ridiculously easy and could be done by anyone who could use a saw. The final sawing, however, by necessity obliterated any evidence of the trick.

I know very little about hand tools and stonemasonry, but that made me realize the limitations of using personal incredulity to judge the difficulty of something.

 

[Marduk]

Show me someone cutting one of those stones with a bronze age chisel, and I'll shut my yap.

If you can show me two people cut identical stones, such that they could fit together, WITHOUT written instructions, using ONLY period tools, and I'll concede.

I still hold that those stones represent the work of a lost technology, and could NOT have been made with conventional period tools.

museums are full of such items,

"The typical method of working hard stones - such as granite, diorite, basalt, etc.- was by means of bronze tools; these were set with cutting points, far harder than the quartz which was operated on.

youre still playing catchup

 

[King of the Americas]

The corners were really, really, really square.

No... Repetitive construction with tools NOT up to the task, on pieces that had to achieve an accuracy level unattainable without written instruction.

 

[Marduk]

No... Repetitive construction with tools NOT up to the task, on pieces that had to achieve an accuracy level unattainable without written instruction.

why do you persist in stating a fallacy, no one has said that they cut with bronze at any point. All the academics insist they used either, jewel tipped tools or a sanding agent

do you understand this fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
because you keep making it

would you actually address the facts for once,
why can't a gemstone tipped tool cut rock ?
it works fine thesedays
http://www.google.co.uk/products/ca...=X&ei=lC6iTdL8NMOxhQfvr8X0BA&ved=0CDoQ8wIwAg#

 

[King of the Americas]

why do you persist in stating a fallacy, no one has said that they cut with bronze at any point. All the academics insist they used either, jewel tipped tools or a sanding agent

...

So do you have a period example of these jewel tipped drills?

Because to my knowledge, no such tools existed in the Americas until recently.

Even if you HAD diamond tipped drills, cutting square corners would not be possible.

The technology that built Puma Punku is "lost".

 

[Marduk]

So do you have a period example of these jewel tipped drills?

Do you admit that such a tool would do the job ?

Because to my knowledge, no such tools existed in the Americas until recently.

luckily we don't have to rely on something so unevidenced, the evidence for them exists and experimental archaeology proves they work, obviously you must have been out staring at the sky for the last 30 years when real people with real jobs were finding out all the answers

Even if you HAD diamond tipped drills, cutting square corners would not be possible.

how about jewell tipped saws ?
you literally are stretching the bounds of personal credulity now aren't you, if this had been about holes drilled in rock right now you'd be claiming that jewell tipped saws couldn't do the job

The technology that built Puma Punku is "lost".

no, its obsolete. like fringe beliefs

 

[King of the Americas]

Do you admit that such a tool would do the job ?

...


how about jewell tipped saws ?

...

Neither jewel tipped saws nor drills can create inner square corners...

And until you produce a jewel tipped drill or saw, from the Americas' bronze age, you are pissing in the wind, buddy.

So, where's your link detailing where these non-existent tools were found, and what they look like?

Save your time, because no such thing has been found to exist in the Americas.

 

[Marduk]

Neither jewel tipped saws nor drills can create inner square corners...

And until you produce a jewel tipped drill or saw, from the Americas' bronze age, you are pissing in the wind, buddy.

So, where's your link detailing where these non-existent tools were found, and what they look like?

Save your time, because no such thing has been found to exist in the Americas.

lets try some logic here shall we
even if there are no longer any of the tools in evidence, they take the same credibility as your claim for a lost race

Remember that one time you listened to me before when you worked out that the reference to "grasshoppers" in the bible was about numbers and not height. this is one of those moments
what is more likely to be lost
1. An advanced race
2. some tools which are destroyed through natural usage

this isn't rocket science, remember we are talking about a culture who's idea of a sword was a piece of wood with hard sharp rocks (obsidian) set into it as a blade, I guess they figured out that the wood couldn't cut square corners in flesh eh
http://www.precolumbianweapons.com/swords.htm

 

[Pacal]

'I' don't believe river-like fissures are caused by 'saturated sand'...

It might further degrade any surface, and making any crack or fissure bigger and wider, but I don't believe 'unmoved' sand + water equals river-like fissures.

I disagree with your link's findings.

You can say "I don't believe" all you want that is what is what the great majority of Geologists believe is going on with the erosion of the Sphinx. Oh and salt exfoliation is going on on the body of the Sphinx to this day producing "river like" erosion.

 

[King of the Americas]

You can say "I don't believe" all you want that is what is what the great majority of Geologists believe is going on with the erosion of the Sphinx. Oh and salt exfoliation is going on on the body of the Sphinx to this day producing "river like" erosion.

That "I don't believe" is more like "the evidence I have seen contradicts that assertion".

 

[King of the Americas]

lets try some logic here shall we
even if there are no longer any of the tools in evidence, ...

...

So there IS NO evidence of the tools you suggest did the work, and you can't produce them, or even a single shard of ONE tool, that surely there must have been hundreds or thousands...?

LOGIC then suggests that whatever tool(s) did the work, have been lost.

Until you can produce said jewel tipped drills and saw, they will REMAIN "lost".

If there is some text you'd like to assist in re-translating, by all means give it a shot. However, from my understanding, this culture never developed a written language, so I think your talents may be wasted here.

 

[Pacal]

Inca stone work is a interesting area of study. It appears that timber rollers, and timber frames were used to get the stones to the sites and with the aid of large work forces. As for the tight fit of Inca stones. That was apparently the result from coping clay / timber models of the stone required. The stones themselves were cut with the aid of rocks that were harder or at least equally hard and with sand poured into the grooves which was then "sawed". They could also use the wedge method of soaking pieces of wood with water and the expansion splitting the stone. There are of course other methods. All very time consuming / labourous but it works. The exact finish seems to have been produced by covering both the recieving and recieved surfaces with clay and pushing them together then the areas that the clay was rubbed off would be smouthed with hammer stones and sand. This technique has been tried it works.

For a interesting look at Inca building techniques see:

http://www.rutahsa.com/incaarch.html

If the Incas could build Machu Picchu and the great fortress of Sacsayhuaman near Cuzco with their technology it is more than likely that the Aymara Indians could build Tiwanaku.

 

[Pacal]

That "I don't believe" is more like "the evidence I have seen contradicts that assertion".

Only Schoch and a few woo meisters believe that the Sphinx is that old. The evidence overwhelming contradicts their assertions. You obviously choose not to see it. Just like the exfoliation process going on with ther Sphinx today creating the "river like" erosion.

Continue to bury your head in the sand.

 

[Marduk]

So there IS NO evidence of the tools you suggest did the work, and you can't produce them, or even a single shard of ONE tool, that surely there must have been hundreds or thousands...?

LOGIC then suggests that whatever tool(s) did the work, have been lost.

Until you can produce said jewel tipped drills and saw, they will REMAIN "lost".

If there is some text you'd like to assist in re-translating, by all means give it a shot. However, from my understanding, this culture never developed a written language, so I think your talents may be wasted here.

uh, no, nice try at evasion but your problem is now clear to everyone reading this
rather than admit the possibility that its a tool you don't know about you'd rather go with the lost advanced race that no one knew about. This means you are intellectually bankrupt as you have decided on an answer which is meaningless.

heres the tie breaker question on tool v race
What metal was used as clamps to hold the pieces of puma punku together

why does your advanced race use primitive bronze in the actual construction, didn't they know what iron was?

 

[Trent Wray]

Carving descending squares into diorite, and some 30 squared faces onto hundreds of individual stones, so uniformly that they fit together like stone legos...without a written language and only bronze age tools "is not possible".

Small correction ... it's "lego". There is no plural form of the word . "Lego bricks" is appropriate though ...

Carry on ...