General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Thunder]

I'm sure Thunder will be first in the queue.

 

[Thunder]

It is quite rare for such a famous report to be so publicly retracted. It is exceedingly embarrasing for the folks who supported it to the hilt, since it fit their "Israel is evil" story. So naturally they will pass over this retraction in silence. They will never apologize.

will you apologize for your silence in the face of vile and anti-Semitic attacks against Goldstone, made by fellow Jews?

 

[Darat]

There are a lot of posts in this thread that are in breach of the Membership Agreement, especially for Rule 12: Discussing other Members is not the topic of this thread.

Rather than close the thread to remove the breaches, which would take some time and during which discussions could not continue I'll leave it open and unpruned but with a clear warning for future participation.

If you can't post without breaching your Membership Agreement do not post as further breaches that come to the Mod Team's attention will more than likely result in suspension.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[boyntonstu]

Is ANNEXATION a bad word?

Iran squares off against Saudi Arabia over Bahrain's annexation
DEBKAfile Exclusive Report April 4, 2011, 2:14 PM (GMT+02:00)

The accord reached between Saudi King Abdullah and the Bahraini monarch Hamas bin Isa Al Khalifa for the oil island's virtual annexation by Riyadh has so incensed Tehran that armed Iranian-Saudi clashes with the potential for all-out warfare may be unavoidable, debkafile's sources estimate....

http://debka.com/

Should Israel ANNEX?

 

[Thunder]

 

[Dave Rogers]

It's a perfectly cromulent word.

Dave

 

[Skeptic]

I suppose no apologies are forthcoming, to put it no stronger than that, due to Darat's stern warning.

Ah well.

 

[Skeptic]

I can make a distinction between religion and ethnicity. So can you, I guess, it's just that when it comes to Jews you only see the one that allows you to bash the ones you're talking about.

...and which one that is changes with the situation.

As long as the question was, "should there be a Jewish state?", Judaism was only a religion, and not a nationality or an ethnicity, so obviously a Jewish state is an evil theocracy. When the discussion shifted to "should Jews be allowed to form their own communities?", it suddenly turns out that Judaism is not a religion, but an ethnicity after all, so obviously a Jewish neighborhood is an evil racist thing, like a White-only neighborhood.

ETA: didn't read the rest of Mycroft's post before I noted this myself. Guess the shifting double standard by some people -- Jews are "really" an ethnicity or a religion depending on which definition allows one to bash them -- is rather obvious.

 

[666]

Is ANNEXATION a bad word?

I don't think so, otherwise it would show as ********** on posts to the Forum.

 

[Thunder]

ETA: didn't read the rest of Mycroft's post before I noted this myself. Guess the shifting double standard by some people -- Jews are "really" an ethnicity or a religion depending on which definition allows one to bash them -- is rather obvious.

you mean like how Jewishness is a nation one day and a religion the next day, when it comes to Israeli policy?

 

[Thunder]

I suppose no apologies are forthcoming, to put it no stronger than that, due to Darat's stern warning.

Ah well.

No, I do not expect Alan Dershowitz or his ideological brethren to apologize to Goldstone for their vile and anti-Semetic attacks against him.

 

[IDB87]

No, I do not expect Alan Dershowitz or his ideological brethren to apologize to Goldstone for their vile and anti-Semetic attacks against him.

It's also disgusting for Goldstone to, without any shred of proof, claim that the IDF deliberately targeted civilians and the economic infrastructure of Gaza.

Both should apologize, but I think the former has much more to apologize for.

 

[Thunder]

It's also disgusting for Goldstone to, without any shred of proof, claim that the IDF deliberately targeted civilians and the economic infrastructure of Gaza.

Both should apologize, but I think the former has much more to apologize for.

did Goldstone actually accuse the IDF of having an official policy, formulated by the Generals and politicians, calling for the targeting of known civilian non-combatants?

I do not believe he made such an accusation, and I'd like to see evidence of such if folks here are claiming that he did.

 

[IDB87]

did Goldstone actually accuse the IDF of having an official policy, formulated by the Generals and politicians, calling for the targeting of known civilian non-combatants?

I do not believe he made such an accusation, and I'd like to see evidence of such if folks here are claiming that he did.

Goldstone said his central criticism of Israel is that its strategy intentionally applied disproportionate force in Gaza to inflict widespread damage on the civilian population. His report found that the Israeli air and ground attacks destroyed 5,000 homes; put 200 factories out of operation, including the only flour factory in the country; systematically destroyed egg-producing chicken farms; and bombed sewage and water systems.

“If that isn’t collective punishment, what is?’’ Goldstone asked.

Linky

 

[Thunder]

ok, so he has now retracted his most offensive accusations.

will those who attacked him now retract their hateful, bigoted, and vile attacks against HIM?

 

[Skeptic]

ok, so he has now retracted his most offensive accusations.
Will those who attacked him now retract their hateful, bigoted, and vile attacks against HIM?

There is, of course, a rather obvious asymmetry here.

While Israel never actually committed the acts Goldstone falsely accused it of in the first place, Goldstone most definitely did do what his critics accused him of -- namely, wrote an unfair and biased report that was used as a weapon to delegitimize Israel. If I falsely accuse someone of murder and he calls me a liar, then if I later renounce my accusation, I have no right to demand an apology from the man I accused of murder for calling me a liar, since while he never actually murdered, I did in fact lie.

What Goldstone deserves is something else: he deserves that those who attacked him, quite correctly, for making false accusations against Israel, will not apologize for saying the truth about him, but will acknowledge that he now changed his mind and that he did the right thing in so doing. Judging by the Israeli press of the last few days, this is precisely what just about every politician or journalists which deals with Goldstone at all is doing -- even if they disagree how much it negates his previous misdeeds.

 

[Thunder]

While Israel never actually committed the acts Goldstone falsely accused it of in the first place, Goldstone most definitely did do what his critics accused him of -- namely, wrote an unfair and biased report that was used as a weapon to delegitimize Israel.

so this attack upon Goldstone by Alan Dershowitz was therefore justified?

Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz said Goldstone was “an evil, evil man,” “a traitor to the Jewish people,” the U.N.’s “token court Jew” and a “despicable human being.”

 

[IDB87]

so this attack upon Goldstone by Alan Dershowitz was therefore justified?

Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz said Goldstone was “an evil, evil man,” “a traitor to the Jewish people,” the U.N.’s “token court Jew” and a “despicable human being.”

I don't think Alan Dershowitz, or anyone who speaks for him, posts here.

Who are you asking this to?

 

[Thunder]

I don't think Alan Dershowitz, or anyone who speaks for him, posts here.

Who are you asking this to?

Originally Posted by Skeptic
While Israel never actually committed the acts Goldstone falsely accused it of in the first place, Goldstone most definitely did do what his critics accused him of..

I would like to know if Skeptic stands by his above comment, that Goldstone did do what his critics, including Dershowitz, accuse him of doing.

 

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Skeptic [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif[/qimg]
While Israel never actually committed the acts Goldstone falsely accused it of in the first place, Goldstone most definitely did do what his critics accused him of..

Which was to make baseless accusations against Israel and to write a biased report, which he did.

What's the problem now?

Skeptic does not speak for Dershowitz - and if you go on to quote the rest of Skeptic's post, he says what Goldstone was accused of doing was exactly what Goldstone retracted - that being an unfair and biased report that demonized Israel.