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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I apologize if this has been addressed in the past but I cannot help but wonder how everyone knows what Raffaelle's lease included. Do we know for sure the apartment was furnished? Do we know for sure the utensils were a part of the furnishings? Mostly do we know for sure there was an "inventory list" for that particular apartment?

To have a theory where murderers disposed of their clothing somewhere but did not also dispose of the murder weapon at the same time because of some inventory list that may or may not exist and may or may not include utensils is extremely bizarre.

Ah ... but you're forgetting the starting point of this reasoning: Amanda and Raffaele committed the murder, and the kitchen knife was the murder weapon. :rolleyes:

Several conclusions follow from this knowledge, among them that they cleaned the knife in a manner that removed all traces of blood, yet left enough DNA for Stefanoni to balloon up in her truth machine; and that they surely had a compelling reason for taking the knife back to where it belonged - my god! The landlord's inventory!

It's all unavoidably true, because otherwise ... well, it wouldn't make sense that the knife is the murder weapon, now, would it?
 
It is an aerial view of some building with cars in the parking lot.

I believe Rose could figured that one out by herself. I bet she's asking if anyone knows what building and why this one? After all, tthere must've been a reason to look at these pictures.
 
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I was reviewing the pictures from the latest hearing and I was wondering about these. What do you think they are looking at here?

http://www.milestonemedia.it/editorial/photos/low/MILESTONE-ED-00Y1V2
http://www.milestonemedia.it/editorial/photos/show/MILESTONE-ED-00Y1VF

This next one, Raffaele looks very happy. Interesting color choice.

http://www.daylife.com/photo/03K8bVxbfO8Yo?q=Amanda+Knox

It's a screenshot of Piazza Grimana from Google Earth. Cars in front of the university.

Raffaele looks great, nice haircut and happy colors :)
 
Hi everyone,
In another odd twist to this case we discuss,
Frank Sfarzo, who was present in the courtroom,
reported back on March 29, 2009 that Antonio Curatolo said in court during the 1st trail that he knew it was 9:27-9:28pm because he checked the time twice!

I quote:
"Curatolo was so worried about fixing the time that besides recalling that he goes to check it to the electronic board --on the other side of the square-- he added, today, that he also checks it on his own watch. But he had always stated not to have a watch. So Massei asked him to show his watch. And he didn't have it. Massei asked him if he could be more precise about his arrival time because 21:30-22:00 was a bit vague. And he did get more precise, much more precise: 21:27-21:28!"

Interestingly, Antonio still did not tell the police this as they started the investigation into who murdered Meredith Kercher!

Link here:
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/03/blog-post.html

Yet the pro-guilt community, and the Perugian court believed this heroin dealer and user...
 
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reality and fantasy

The question is not whether she really believes it, but whether it was said. Nadeau is a reporter and is showing that there are different views regarding the evidence.

Or are you suggesting that reporters should give the impression that there is only one interpretation of the evidence, namely yours?

By the way, do you know if Candace got her seat in the court room?

colonelhall,

"DNA doesn't fly"is also the title of a chapter in Angel Face. How does Ms. Nadeau know what is or is not convincing to the appellate jury? Is she confusing her opinion with theirs? Who are the "countless experts," and what, precisely, did they say? If Ms. Nadeau believes that secondary transfer and contamination are both fantastical propositions, she needs to speak with some real experts, the ones writing journal articles and textbooks. As you say, it is a matter of giving different views.

In the case of the bra clasp, there are unknown alleles present. How did they get there, if both contamination are secondary transfer are unreal events?
 
Alt+F4, give Guede and Mignini a big hug and kisses for all the guilters.

That's the best you can do? Really? :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'll be back on May 21st, I doubt there will be anything new until then, just the same rehash.
 
Look at it this way. Today in court Monica Naponobdy didn't even show up to court, Hellman embarrassed the prosecution's star witness, and the report from the independent experts is not going to endorse Stefanoni. You would think that would be the topic of discussion. But no, what's important is that someone sent an angry email three years ago to the real victim in this case, the bored moderator of PMF.

What is this embarrassment?
 
I'll tell you what really got my goat reading reports of last Saturday's hearing;

Comodi said that the testimony of 4 (?) club owners who confirmed that their places were closed on Nov 1 2007 and hence that there were no shuttle buses serving them is "useless" because there are "many discotheques" whose owners "had not been heard"

So produce them, b****!

Un-%$£~?*#-believable!

Supernaut; according to Frank Sfarzo the prosecution court appointed DNA experts are no longer turning up to witness the independent DNA analysis,no show on Saturday from Monica Napoleoni,behind the scenes all the people who facilitated this witch trial are at one an other's throats,all trying to deflect as much of the blame as possible away from themselves
One man as far as I can see who is playing a blinder at this is the new head prosecutor Giancarlo Costagliola,he invited them two little better than tame apes,Mignini and Comodi,to the appeal and has allowed and encouraged them to dig themselves deeper and deeper into the mire.
 
Hey everyone,

I've been reading these forums for some time, but have only been posting on the Eliza Vargas forum on facebook, reason being I get more of a kick out of arguing with the guilters than discussing with those of us who support Knox. One idiot keeps posting this list over and over again and asking me to address the "points". I really don't know why I bother, I'm not sure my blood pressure can handle much more of this illogical idiocy...


* the DNA of Raffaele Sollecito on Meredith’s bra-clasp in her locked bedroom;
* the almost-entire naked footprint of Raffaele on a bathmat that in *no way* fits that of the other male in this case – Rudy Guede;
* the fact that Raffaele’s own father blew their alibi that they were together in Raffaele’s flat at the time of the killing with indisputable telephone records;
* the DNA of Meredith Kercher on the knife in Raffaele’s flat which Raffaele himself sought to explain as having been from accidentally “pricking” Meredith’s hand in his written diary despite the fact Meredith had never been to his flat (confirmed by Amanda Knox);
* the correlation of where Meredith’s phones were found to the location of Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guedes’s flats;
* the computer records which show that no-one was at Raffaele’s computer during the time of the murder despite him claiming he was using that computer;
* Amanda’s DNA mixed with Meredith Kercher’s in five different places just feet from Meredith’s body;
* the utterly inexplicable computer records the morning after the murder starting at 5.32 am and including multiple file creations and interactions thereafter all during a time that Raffaele and Amanda insist they were asleep until 10.30am;
* the separate witnesses who testified on oath that Amanda and Raffaele were at the square 40 metres from the girls’ cottage on the evening of the murder and the fact that Amanda was seen at a convenience store at 7.45am the next morning, again while she said she was in bed;
* the accusation of a completely innocent man by Amanda Knox;
* the fact that when Amanda Knox rang Meredith’s mobile telephones, ostensibly to check on the “missing” Meredith, she did so for just three seconds - registering the call but making no effort to allow the phone to be answered in the real world
* the knife-fetish of Raffaele Sollecito and his formal disciplinary punishment for watching animal porn at his university – so far from the wholesome image portrayed;
* the fact that claimed multi-year kick-boxer Raffaele apparently couldn’t break down a flimsy door to Meredith’s room when he and Amanda were at the flat the morning after the murder but the first people in the flat with the police who weren’t martial artists could;
* the extensive hard drug use of Sollecito as told on by Amanda Knox;
* the fact that Amanda knew details of the body and the wounds despite not being in line of sight of the body when it was discovered;
* the lies of Knox on the witness stand in July 2009 about how their drug intake that night (“one joint”) is totally contradicted by Sollecito’s own contemporaneous diary;
* the fact that after a late evening’s questioning, Knox wrote a 2,900 word email home which painstakingly details what she said happened that evening and the morning after that looks *highly* like someone committing to memory, at 3.30 in the morning, an extensive alibi;
* the fact that both Amanda and Raffaele both said they would give up smoking dope for life in their prison diaries despite having apparently nothing to regret;
* the fact that when Rudy Guede was arrested, Raffaele Sollecito didn’t celebrate the “true” perpetrator being arrested (which surely would have seen him released) but worried in his diary that a man whom he said he didn’t know would “make up strange things” about him despite him just being one person in a city of over 160,000 people;
* the fact that both an occupant of the cottage and the police instantly recognised the cottage had not been burgled but had been the subject of a staged break-in where glass was *on top* of apparently disturbed clothes;
* that Knox and Sollecito both suggested each other might have committed the crime and Sollecito TO THIS DATE does not agree Knox stayed in his flat all the night in question;
* the bizarre behaviour of both of them for days after the crime;
* the fact that cellphone records show Knox did not stay in Sollecito’s flat but had left the flat at a time which is completely coincidental with Guede’s corroborated presence near the girl’s flat earlier in the evening;
* the fact that Amanda Knox’s table lamp was found in the locked room of Meredith Kercher in a position that suggested it had been used to examine for fine details of the murder scene in a clean up;
* the unbelievable series of changing stories made up by the defendants after their versions became challenged; Knox’s inexplicable reaction to being shown the knife drawer at the girl’s cottage where she ended up physically shaking and hitting her head.
 
Hi misteratunta,
unfortunetely I have no time right now to answer all of your points, but I'm sure someone will do it very soon and in the most firm and polite way. You'll see that the list is nothing more than a bunch of lies and/or innacuracies or misinterpreted deails.
 
Hi misteratunta,
unfortunetely I have no time right now to answer all of your points, but I'm sure someone will do it very soon and in the most firm and polite way. You'll see that the list is nothing more than a bunch of lies and/or innacuracies or misinterpreted deails.

Not my points, points of an idiot on the Elizabeth Vargas boards on facebook. I've already had a stab at a retort, but if someone could help me elaborate before I post that would be great!

* the DNA of Raffaele Sollecito on Meredith’s bra-clasp in her locked bedroom - and what of the DNA of the unidentified other people found on it? Are they therefore suspects also?

* the almost-entire naked footprint of Raffaele on a bathmat that in *no way* fits that of the other male in this case – Rudy Guede - it doesn't fit Raffael's foot any more than it fit's Rudy's

* the fact that Raffaele’s own father blew their alibi that they were together in Raffaele’s flat at the time of the killing with indisputable telephone records - care to cite a source for this and explain what it means?

* the DNA of Meredith Kercher on the knife in Raffaele’s flat which Raffaele himself sought to explain as having been from accidentally “pricking” Meredith’s hand in his written diary despite the fact Meredith had never been to his flat (confirmed by Amanda Knox); - watch this space on that one. If this were accurate and indisputable then nobody would be supporting Knox

* the correlation of where Meredith’s phones were found to the location of Raffaele Sollecito and Rudy Guedes’s flats; - the route where they were found was between Meredith's flat and Rudy's flat. That Raffaele's flat was also nearby is irrelevant and this point is a non-point

* the computer records which show that no-one was at Raffaele’s computer during the time of the murder despite him claiming he was using that computer - that's funny, I thought the hard disk was fried before any such evidence could be finally concluded


* Amanda’s DNA mixed with Meredith Kercher’s in five different places just feet from Meredith’s body - she lived in the same flat, and this line is deliberately misleading - it was feet away from Meredith's body THROUGH A DOOR AND A WALL

* the utterly inexplicable computer records the morning after the murder starting at 5.32 am and including multiple file creations and interactions thereafter all during a time that Raffaele and Amanda insist they were asleep until 10.30am - Amanda was at her own flat at 10:30am so I find it strange that she would claim to have been asleep. Did she sleepwalk? Seriously, who is writing this stuff?


* the separate witnesses who testified on oath that Amanda and Raffaele were at the square 40 metres from the girls’ cottage on the evening of the murder and the fact that Amanda was seen at a convenience store at 7.45am the next morning, again while she said she was in bed; - Who we talking about here, Curatolo the drug using homeless guy who couldn't remember what night it was and doesn't know why he is in prison? Or the guy who said he met her uncle and that she had a gap in her teeth? The guy they threw the olives at? Did someone just include this section as filler to pad this nonsense out?


* the accusation of a completely innocent man by Amanda Knox - did the accusation of his totally innocent family members make Gerry Conlon guilty?

* the fact that when Amanda Knox rang Meredith’s mobile telephones, ostensibly to check on the “missing” Meredith, she did so for just three seconds - registering the call but making no effort to allow the phone to be answered in the real world - this is a lie, a verifiable lie

* the knife-fetish of Raffaele Sollecito and his formal disciplinary punishment for watching animal porn at his university – so far from the wholesome image portrayed; - another out and out lie

* the fact that claimed multi-year kick-boxer Raffaele apparently couldn’t break down a flimsy door to Meredith’s room when he and Amanda were at the flat the morning after the murder but the first people in the flat with the police who weren’t martial artists could; - Kick boxer? Multi year? And this is known because he wrote Favourite Sport: Kickboxing on his WAYNE profile? Where is the evidence he ever took one single class, let alone was a "multi year kickboxer"? And since when did kickboxing make anyone an expert in kicking down doors? Try to use a kickboxing kick on a door and you'll get a broken foot

* the extensive hard drug use of Sollecito as told on by Amanda Knox; As told on by Amanda Knox? Hard drug use? Lie. Cite please. You can't just write the stuff without backing it up and then walk away thinking nobody will notice. There is no evidence whatsoever that Raffaele was abusing hard drugs, and if he was it is very far from evidence that he is a murderer. Hey, some of you guys are even saying Curatolo is still a reliable witness and he was whacked out on H. How come he never murdered anyone from that park bench, if your logic is so flawless?

* the fact that Amanda knew details of the body and the wounds despite not being in line of sight of the body when it was discovered - she was told where Meredith was and that her throat had been slit in a car on the way to the police station, this is a matter of public fact

* the lies of Knox on the witness stand in July 2009 about how their drug intake that night (“one joint”) is totally contradicted by Sollecito’s own contemporaneous diary; - straws, clutching at. Who cares how many spliffs she smoked? What good would it do her to lie about it?

* the fact that after a late evening’s questioning, Knox wrote a 2,900 word email home which painstakingly details what she said happened that evening and the morning after that looks *highly* like someone committing to memory, at 3.30 in the morning, an extensive alibi; - only to someone who wants it to look HIGHLY like someone committing to a memory an alibi. To anyone else it looks like someone writing a detailed message home.

* the fact that both Amanda and Raffaele both said they would give up smoking dope for life in their prison diaries despite having apparently nothing to regret - because idiots who know nothing whatsoever about drugs cite their dope smoking as a black mark against them and it made them more inclined to think they were murderers. Not hard to see why they might regret that

* the fact that when Rudy Guede was arrested, Raffaele Sollecito didn’t celebrate the “true” perpetrator being arrested (which surely would have seen him released) but worried in his diary that a man whom he said he didn’t know would “make up strange things” about him despite him just being one person in a city of over 160,000 people; - because he was the one who was all over the papers as being the murderer, out of 160000 other people


* the fact that both an occupant of the cottage and the police instantly recognised the cottage had not been burgled but had been the subject of a staged break-in where glass was *on top* of apparently disturbed clothes - the glass on top of clothes was contradicted in court upon closer inspection of photographs of the crime scene, and what makes the police experts on stage break ins, you reckon they saw a lot of staged break ins around that way? Would you take the word of someone who had so few qualifications that they decided to be a cop over the word of a ballistics expert?

* that Knox and Sollecito both suggested each other might have committed the crime and Sollecito TO THIS DATE does not agree Knox stayed in his flat all the night in question; lie, he accepted it in court

* the bizarre behaviour of both of them for days after the crime; - sigh...

* the fact that cellphone records show Knox did not stay in Sollecito’s flat but had left the flat at a time which is completely coincidental with Guede’s corroborated presence near the girl’s flat earlier in the evening; LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE! How can anyone be asked to explain a completely fabricated nonsense?

* the fact that Amanda Knox’s table lamp was found in the locked room of Meredith Kercher in a position that suggested it had been used to examine for fine details of the murder scene in a clean up - oh my God...is it 2009 again?

* the unbelievable series of changing stories made up by the defendants after their versions became challenged; Knox’s inexplicable reaction to being shown the knife drawer at the girl’s cottage where she ended up physically shaking and hitting her head - oh sorry, you got me. She must have done it.
 
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Not my points, points of an idiot called "Nick Slick Kitto" on the Elizabeth Vargas boards on facebook. I've already had a stab at a retort, but if someone could help me elaborate before I post that would be great!

Oh, ok.

Anyway, most of these so called facts were already thrown out(and talked about on the previous pages), but I do understand your need of answering them. After all, the guilters are having hard times lately and they hang on to any piece of "evidence" they can.

I'm sure that someone from JREF will soon help you out, if not, try Injustice In Perugia forum.

However, I think you shouldn't be that bothered. They are out there and they won't dissappear even after "not guilty" verdict.

BTW, could your provide a link to the Elisabeth Vargas Facebook boards?
 
/topic.php?topic=3818&post=62781


It won't let me link to it, but if you follow the above with the facebook url at the start you should see it!

There are lots of guilters on there, and while you may see several pro Amanda posters, I am afraid they are nearly all me posting under different pseudonyms. If anyone fancies wading in to help me out, it would be much appreciated!
 
Why keep it? I've lived in a lot of rental apartments, and even if this detailed an inventory exists, the idea that before you move in you (and a representative of the landlord) go through it to check the inventory against actual contents this closely is unrealistic.
If the police got a copy of the inventory from RS' landlord, to check for 'missing' knives, RS could have very easily, and believably, argued that there was no such knife when he moved in. The fact that he signed an inventory document means almost nothing.

Apparently my point was too subtle.

In essence, my argument for keeping the knife would be: why not?

It may be no more complicated than Knox and/or Sollecito believing they had throroughly cleaned the knife, so why not keep it? As the points raised on appeal by the defense regarding the knife indicate, they may in fact have cleaned it enough.

I could also speculate that perhaps Sollecito is a knife fetishist freak who got off on the idea of keeping the murder weapon in plain sight, but that would be mere specualtion. Much as is all this nonsense about keeping a knife to satisfy concerns over a hypothetical cutlery check by his landlord.
 
To have a theory where murderers disposed of their clothing somewhere but did not also dispose of the murder weapon at the same time because of some inventory list that may or may not exist and may or may not include utensils is extremely bizarre.

Why is it "extremely bizarre"? A knife is a much easier object to clean than an item of clothing; indeed, depending on the nature of the staining, it might be impossible to fully clean the clothing. Not so with the knife.
 
It may be no more complicated than Knox and/or Sollecito believing they had throroughly cleaned the knife, so why not keep it? As the points raised on appeal by the defense regarding the knife indicate, they may in fact have cleaned it enough.

So you mean, there may have actually been no DNA left on the knife at all?

At that stage you would have a murder weapon which was

a) never seen outside the flat it belonged in
b) which didn't fit two out of three of the wounds
c) that didn't match the outline of a bloody knife left at the scene

At that point, would you still think it was the murder weapon? WHY?
 
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