• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Differing Models on the Origin of Higher Taxa

More unsubstantiated comments claiming I don't know what something is.

No, they're plenty substantiated. Starting with you trying to rehash your claims regarding Haeckel.

On Haeckel, why did it take so long? Creationists had pointed out they were faked for 130 years. What took you guys so long to come clean on the issue, or just partly?

We've done this song-and-dance already, randman. It's because advances in microscopes, photography, and genetics made it easier (and resulted in far better quality data) to study embryos themselves rather than Haeckel's drawings. In other words, nobody cared about Haeckel until relatively recently, and taking him and his drawings away from the pool of data was the equivalent of taking an eyedropper's worth of water out of an Olympic-sized swimming pool.

Yawn. So you make up a bald-faced lie about me and call that an argument?

Then why didn't you address Dinwar's statements about the Signor-Lipps effect and the Sepkoski Curve?

Were you one of those that insisted I was wrong in saying evolutionists do not mean a fossil is ancestral or evolved any later forms at all when they call a fossil "transitional"?

You have a problem with remembering who said what, it seems. This forum has a Search function, you know.
 
Now biology is going back to some other mechanisms and exploring them, including Neo-Lamarckian ideas such as epigenetics, non-random mutation, and evolution without the emphasis on natural selection, etc,....

Do you imagine re-examination means an abandonment of the theory?
 
a lack of a critical approach to the data and theory is why they got it so wrong on Neo Darwinism.....plenty of scientists showed it was wrong, but they were ignored by Darwinists.

Nope, sorry. All of this discussion and exploration and re-examination and revision was done by scientists. Not a single IDer participated in the process, and not a single ID paper or theory is referenced in any of the actual scientific papers about all of this. All the criticism of data and theory that you've cited from papers and that you think is the harbinger of the end of evolution has not only been done by evolutionists, but criticism of data and theory has been part of evolution from the start. That's how we got the modern theory, and why it changes with every new paper that appears in the journals (and pops up on PubMed).

Now biology is going back to some other mechanisms and exploring them, including Neo-Lamarckian ideas such as epigenetics, non-random mutation, and evolution without the emphasis on natural selection, etc,....

Biology isn't going back. It's going forwards with things that have been there and actively involved in the evolving Modern Synthesis for a decade or more.

As I said, you have no idea how science works.
 
Now biology is going back to some other mechanisms and exploring them, including Neo-Lamarckian ideas such as epigenetics, non-random mutation, and evolution without the emphasis on natural selection, etc,....

Is the weather nice on your home planet?
 
Depends on what you mean by theory? You have to be precise. There are lots of theories involved.

In this instance, do you imagine that the theory of evolution through natural selection should be abandoned because of gaps in understanding? Do you actually imagine that is how science works?
 
In this instance, do you imagine that the theory of evolution through natural selection should be abandoned because of gaps in understanding? Do you actually imagine that is how science works?
It would be nice if evos started out admitting where the theory does not work (the gaps as you say).
 
It would be nice if evos started out admitting where the theory does not work (the gaps as you say).

What's an evo?

Every theory has gaps in understanding as I'm sure you understand. If this is your "gotcha" moment, you need to do better. And by better I don't mean further rephrasing of ID apologetics.
 
Last edited:
It would be nice if evos started out admitting where the theory does not work (the gaps as you say).

That would seem pretty obvious...wherever there is research being done, it is because knowledge is incomplete.
 
There seems to be a lot of confusion about what different models to explain the origin of higher taxa actually posit. This thread is not so much to argue which one is correct but to understand what the theories themselves actually are. Taxa refers to the different classifications with species (or subspecies and breeds) being the lowest taxa and genera, families, orders, kingdom, etc,....being higher taxa.

1. The dominant theory of evolution is the Modern Synthesis also commonly referred to as NeoDarwinism. I have typically abbreviated this to Darwinism and explained why, but most here seem to insist on just calling it "evolution" despite evolution being defined as a microevolutionary process involving the change in the frequency of alleles. Of course then, a mere change in the frequency of alleles is not necessarily the origin of higher taxa, and so working with that label does not address the topic at hand.

Whatever one wants to call it (I shall use ND for brevity's sake), ND posits sequential speciation however one wants to define species as the process that occurs evolving the higher taxa. One species evolves into another and then another and so forth until you have different genera, different families and so forth. However one wants to describe the process is besides the point. There is a clear process envisioned of small genetic changes adding up over time in populations to produce new species, genera, families and so forth. We can get into that in more depth later.

2. The next model, so derided by evos, is creationism or special creation. Contrary to what many evos think, creationists generally do advocate evolution as well, though perhaps not all, and many especially object to ND's emphasis on allelic mutations as the mechanism for evolution. Their idea is evolution happens but is limited within a kind. So all bears or cats or some other creatures (using animals to help bring clarity to the concept) can and did evolve into all the other bears, cats, etc,....but evolution is limited to a range, evolution within a kind, or "baramin" as some have labelled it.

This is why creationists scoff at evolutionists that talk about microevolution (not originally a creationist term as some presume) being exclusive evidence for evo theory as if creationism does not incorporate microevolution as well. Creationism is divided into young earth creationism (YEC) and old earth creationism as well as further differences in those groups. But they generally advocate a special creation act of the kinds, some advocate progressive creation acts.

Please keep in mind the point of this thread is not to initially jump into debating the validy of models but to actually understand what they say.

3. Front loading and related theories: This is generally an Intelligent Design model. ID actually encompasses creationism but includes models separate from it. Front loading accept common descent as a general principle, though not necessarily monophylogenetic, meaning there can be more than one common source. That is something often suggested but more as a suspicion. The idea is that the environmental pressures play just a small role in the pattern of life that has emerged. Instead as Broome said there is a Plan or pattern that was already embedded into organisms to direct, but just in a general sense, the path of evolution. So something like the similarities between marsupial and placental pairs is not the result of ND evolution (environmental pressures selecting the designs) but a product of internal mechanisms directing the evolution into common designs.

The basic idea is the first organisms contained a basic program so that certain common designs would emerge; that there is a direction to evolution.

Front loaders generally do not believe macroevolution is occuring any more but is a process that has largely or completely spent itself out.

There is a further division in front loading which is worth noting. Some incorporate allelic mutation more than others. Others like John Davison, and likely Goldschmidt and Grasse (who might be termed a front loader today in his advocacy of "internal mechanisms) suggest that random allelic mutation plays almost no role in the emergence of the higher taxa; that something else causes the reordering of DNA. In other words, their model is a form of "saltionism."

So creationism can actually accept speciation within a kind (though some differ), but saltationists do not accept gradual evolution of this sort. It's an important distinction to note.

Epigenetics and the idea of looking at chromosomes more as a means of speciation is based on a revival of this older theory of evolution front loaders and other saltionists advocated but evos involved with it do not consider epigenetics as exclusive of ND but an addition to it (no saltionism), somewhat outside ND but merely adding to it.

4. Saltationism without Intelligent Design....it's worth noting that we don't know if some scientists in the past that rejected Neodarwinism such as Goldschidt, Otto Schindewolf, Pierre Graase, etc,...would accept the label "Intelligent Design" today. You'd have to look at their writings and comments more extensively to see if they viewed the process as the result of design and purpose or purely random. Also, keep in mind saltionism is not full-blown Lamarckianism, nor even Lamarckian at all. Epigenetics though can be seen as somewhat Lamarckian.

5. Intelligent Design: This is really a very broad umbrella including theories accepting common descent and not, but can generally be thought of a model based on the assumption that there is Intelligence behind design; that there is purpose in the creation both of biological life and the universe itself. It's a model involved in areas besides biology such as information theory, mathematics, physics, astrophysics and cosmology. I believe theistic evolutionists should rightly be considered a form of ID but they'd object to the label.

Hope that is helpful.



You seem to be leaving out the most problematic part of ID. The Creationists and IDers are suggesting that this "front loading" was programmed by an imaginary entity. Or did you forget that part?
 
You seem to be leaving out the most problematic part of ID. The Creationists and IDers are suggesting that this "front loading" was programmed by an imaginary entity. Or did you forget that part?
Which makes more sense? That chemicals spontaneously generated biological life or that an Intelligent Agent did?
 
Which makes more sense? That chemicals spontaneously generated biological life or that an Intelligent Agent did?
There weren't any intelligent agents when life first formed.

Chemicals spontaneously generate life now. Something like an octilllion or nonillion times a day.
 
Which makes more sense? That chemicals spontaneously generated biological life or that an Intelligent Agent did?

Let's reword that as it is in reality

Which makes more sense? That we don't know the origins of life or than an imaginary entity created them?


Stop trying to shove ORIGINS into evolutionary theory. I keep telling you that this is why you are looking at evolution backwards.

Origins has absolutely NOTHING to do with evolution. Thanks.
 
You are the one inserting the word "imaginary" and so your question is wrong.

You wish to believe in an imaginary process that caused chemicals to sponteneously generate biological life. I believe that it's more reasonable to think life was intelligently designed.

Oh, and in case you haven't noticed, you are the one that shoved the issue of Origins into this debate, not me. You insist the issue of Origins must be included in ID but not for evos, eh?
 
Last edited:
You are the one inserting the word "imaginary" and so your question is wrong.

You wish to believe in an imaginary process that caused chemicals to sponteneously generate biological life. I believe that it's more reasonable to think life was intelligently designed.

Oh, and in case you haven't noticed, you are the one that shoved the issue of Origins into this debate, not me. You insist the issue of Origins must be included in ID but not for evos, eh?

Do you actually read any of the posts you respond to? I didn't say that I believed that at all. I said "WE DON'T KNOW"

As I keep reminding you EVOLUTION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ORIGINS.


I do not believe it is reasonable to believe that an imaginary entity made people and programmed them to evolve. There is no evidence to support this idea.

In addition I do not put much stock in any origins theory because I think we are very far away from having the ability to figure this out at this point in time. My personal opinion is that we will never figure out the answer. Hence my response that "we don't know."

All of this however has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution has provided us with evidence we can see and examine. That is all.

We don't need to make up answers for questions we are willing to allow to remain "mysteries" or "questions"

I am of the mind that you only purport to answer what you can back up with evidence. I do not support any theory that wants to MAKE THINGS UP in order to have an answer for the sake of having an answer.

If you do believe in ID then it stands to reason you are willing to believe Aliens came down and seeded the planet. Do you think this is a possibility?
 
Last edited:
You brought up Origins in reference to front loading and now complain about it being brought up. If you want to avoid the topic, don't bring it up. If you do and insist as you did, that front loaders must include it, then don't be hypocritical and say we shouldn't talk about in reference to evolution.
 
Which makes more sense? That chemicals spontaneously generated biological life or that an Intelligent Agent did?

An Intelligent Agent is not an answer, doesn't really explain anything. It only raises more questions. For example, what "generated" the Intelligent Agent?
 
You wish to believe in an imaginary process that caused chemicals to sponteneously generate biological life.

No, that's where the evidence points to. We don't have all the details worked out yet, sure. But even so, the plausibility has been long established.

I believe that it's more reasonable to think life was intelligently designed.

Your belief is not based on reality.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom