Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kestrel]

a) the shop keeper has not been discredited, has he?

A few days after the murder, the shopkeeper was shown photos of Raffaele and Amanda by a police officer. He said the Raffaele was a regular customer and that Amanda had been in the shop a couple of times with Raffaele. But that neither had been to the store on the day after the murder. His two employees that were working inside the store said that they did not see Amanda that day. The police officer's notes from that interview support his testimony at the trail.

Almost a year later the shopkeeper started telling his story of seeing Amanda the morning after the murder.

 

[RoseMontague]

a) the shop keeper has not been discredited, has he?

b) Raffaele is still refusing to back Amanda's version, no?

c) what about the computer logs, cell tower pings and telephone records?

Their alibis are, in point of fact, an unmitigated disaster, hence their current addresses.

Were you really under the impression that the homeless man was the entire case?!

I'll take the last question first. No. But Mignini thought highly of him:

The prosecutor Giuliano Mignini called the homeless "One of the key points and most important of the evidence. Credible credibilissimo absolute trustworthiness and reliability of ... ... proof, full circle, full stop. "

http://translate.google.com/translat...88850589.shtml

As far as Quintavalle goes I'll refer you to some previous posts on him (my answer is yes, he has been discredited, imo).

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6061923&postcount=2470
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6061940&postcount=2472
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6202366&postcount=4101
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6400259&postcount=8577

On the computer question, the supplemental filing does seem to at the very least point towards further testing being necessary.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6545612&postcount=14547

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Forensic DNA typing

a) I never said anything (good, bad or indifferent) about Newsweek;

b) what is "Butler's textbook"?

I wrote a couple of comments about the gloves almost a month ago on this subject. I just found one using the advanced search function, and it gives the complete citation.

You indicated that the fourth estate had not served Americans well. I was just giving an example. An historian who also wrote about the Duke lacrosse case indicated that the student journalists of the Duke Chronicle did as well or better than the New York Times. When the Times ran a front page story on the DL case, the blogosphere had the logical underpinnings of their story dismantled in less than a day.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

alibis

a) the shop keeper has not been discredited, has he?

b) Raffaele is still refusing to back Amanda's version, no?

c) what about the computer logs, cell tower pings and telephone records?

Their alibis are, in point of fact, an unmitigated disaster, hence their current addresses.

Were you really under the impression that the homeless man was the entire case?!

Branded,

Raffaele backed up Amanda in front of Judge Matteini, and he has never retracted what he said then. He has never said anything other than that he was at his flat the night of the murder. That is his alibi. Both have been consistent about where they were, once they recovered their bearings from the interrogations of 5-6 November. What do you think about the metadata concerning Stardust?

 

[colonelhall]

You're absolutely right, but Branded seems to have problems with understanding this simple fact.

I must say that I find it quite entertaining the way that 1) You confirm that anyone's opinion with who you agree is a "fact" and 2) that anyone who doesn't see things your way is having a problem 3) you seem oblivious to the possibility that people reading your comments will not be impressed.

 

[RoseMontague]

Please note the spin the prosecution puts on this. LOL.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42271478

 

[snook1]

Please note the spin the prosecution puts on this. LOL.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42271478

Sure, they're putting spin on this. What else is left for them? I can easily imagine them right after the hearing ended. I bet they headed to get a good drink, but the celebration wasn't the reason. More like a huge failure and the need to relieve some stress. Obviously, they parted their ways, I can't see them being in one room after the events that happend in the last couple of weeks. This is getting out of their control.

 

[Amazer]

There's a bit of a short cut available: check if the judge's conclusions are actually scientifically possible.

It turns out they aren't, which is a problem the guilter community have been blustering about helplessly for some time now.

The fact is, as stated in the Massei report, Meredith had undigested cheese and vegetable fibre (probably apple but possibly pizza topping) in her stomach and nothing at all in her duodenum. Since she ate around 6pm and we can verify this quite accurately, there's no possible way she died at 23:30.

Boom, done.

That should make for a very short appeal then...

 

[Chris_Halkides]

loose blades sink cases

Does a really cheap knife with a molded in place plastic handle have anything to open up?

Kestrel,

I have not seen the model of knife in question. However, the blade might loosen from the handle a little with time. I don't believe that it is guaranteed that blood would seep in via capillary action, but I do believe that looking makes perfectly good sense. It is stronger evidence for the prosecution if there is blood there than it is evidence for the defense if blood is not. That is why it is so interesting who objected to examining the knife in this way, and who did not.

 

[Kaosium]

I'm more and more optimistic and believe me, I'll get to Perugia for the verdict and will sing the song you attached to your post. I will sing it loudly while the families and friends of Amanda and Raffaele will walk hand in hand with them out of the court.

I will sing it when Mignini, Napoleoni, Stefanoni, and di Felice are on their way to their new billets at a place I probably can't spell, and am too lazy to look up, but looks something like 'Capanne.'

Justice, not vengeance. I will take no pleasure in it. I promise. Even though I will be singing and grinning like a fool. Honest!

 

[snook1]

I will sing it when Mignini, Napoleoni, Stefanoni, and di Felice are on their way to their new billets at a place I probably can't spell, and am too lazy to look up, but looks something like 'Capanne.'

Justice, not vengeance. I will take no pleasure in it. I promise. Even though I will be singing and grinning like a fool. Honest!

Then, we should create a band. I always thought I'm a decent singer, but my family always yelled at me when I tried to "perform". Therefore, I would feel much safer if there would be someone else with me. As long as my voice isn't that much hearable, I'm fine and most importantly, the listeners, will be fine too. Not that Amanda and the others would listen. They will be busy with enjoying first minutes of their freedom.

As to Napoleoni, Mignini and Stefanoni - I'm not sure if I want to get close to those people, they could lock me in jail, for having pictures on Facebook where I'm dressed as a musketeer.

 

[Kaosium]

Please note the spin the prosecution puts on this. LOL.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42271478

My gawd! Not only is Andrea Vogt cribbing from PMF, Comodi is too! I almost posted that they'd be trying to break her 'alibi' for Halloween, but I would have been (mostly) joking!

'Lucid and clear.' Gotta love that!

 

[pilot padron]

Curatolo seems to have testified that he saw Amanda and Raffaele Halloween night and has admitted using heroin at that time.[

..and he has admitted *using heroin at that time*

Rose, with all due respect, may I opine that your sterling reputation as a poster with outstanding command and recall of facts in this case will be senselessly sullied if you allow yourself to argue with (or even just repeat) dubious,agenda driven, very questionable statements such as the above.
(albeit your source is a very unreliable translation, and your use of the qualifier: 'seems to have testified', is noted))

Do you know for a fact that as you strongly infer, that Mr Curatolo testified that he used (was under influence of) heroin the night he testifies he saw the two convicted murderers near his bench ??

ETA:
Your stated appreciation for "spin" in the post just previous to this was of course accidental, but almost providential

 

[Chris_Halkides]

words of deep wisdom

Commenter Fly by Night wrote elsewhere, "Quite frankly, the inherent complexity of this case exceeds the mental capacity of most people reporting, blogging, or commenting on it." I suggest we all ponder the wisdom in these words.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Maresca's comments are just in Time

Link here.

Quote
Asked what he thought of the movie, Maresca, the Kercher family's lawyer answered: "It's obviously ill-timed and out of place when there's an appeals trial going on." But, given the importance of public opinion, does it help the case against Knox? "Sure," says Maresca. "It completely reconstructs the events as we've always sustained they happened."
Endquote

 

[bri1]

"Prosecutor Manuela Comodi said the confusion between Oct. 31 and Nov. 1 is a moot point as it has already been ascertained that Knox was somewhere else — in a pub where she worked — on Oct. 31 and so could not have been seen in the square."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42271478

That must be it. I'm sure there were many people in masks running around the night after halloween, and I'm sure that the alternative- that Toto had never seen Amanda and Raff except possibly in passing- is impossible, or at least extremely unlikely!

"The 54-year-old also confessed to a long-lasting drug habit, including in 2007, saying: 'I have always done drugs, ... heroin, which is not a hallucinogen.'"
Not a hallucinogen, indeed. Anyone else noticed the prosecutions' schizophrenic attitude to drugs? Look, I know everyone's gonna jump all over me, but when Meredith smokes weed it's fine because she's 'studious' and 'serious', and when Amanda does it, it sends her into a violent 'reefer madness' instantly. Amanda's use of cannabis led her to sexual assault and murder, but Toto's heroin use couldn't possibly lead him to being confused about what he saw and when.

 

[RoseMontague]

..and he has admitted *using heroin at that time*

Rose, with all due respect, may I opine that your sterling reputation as a poster with outstanding command and recall of facts in this case will be senselessly sullied if you allow yourself to argue with (or even just repeat) dubious,agenda driven, very questionable statements such as the above.
(albeit your source is a very unreliable translation, and your use of the qualifier: 'seems to have testified', is noted))

Do you know for a fact that as you strongly infer, that Mr Curatolo testified that he used (was under influence of) heroin the night he testifies he saw the two convicted murderers near his bench ??

ETA:
Your stated appreciation for "spin" in the post just previous to this was of course accidental, but almost providential

LOL. Yes, I consider myself flogged on that one, and I will take your criticism constructively. No, I have not seen a report that indicated he was using heroin on that particular night, although I am not certain any longer of what night it is he is even talking about.

 

[bri1]

"This is a way to play with public opinion," says Francesco Maresca, a lawyer representing the murdered woman's family. "Obviously, somebody put it in circulation to cause confusion."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2061544,00.html#ixzz1HiOjN1pd

This man, Maresca, is a vile human being, and brings shame to his profession (no mean feat!). The intellectual dishonesty at work here is absolutely incredible. I would love to sit down with this man with a dictaphone and have a very long talk about hypocrisy.
How well does his quote above describe the ILE's behaviour during this trial? How many bits of 'evidence' leaked prior to the trial, which never appeared at trial to be scrutinised by the defense, allowing them to linger unchallenged in the minds of the jury and the public? How many exerpts from bugged conversations and diaries, taken completely out of context? (in some cases forcing the defense to 'leak' the totality of said documents to correct the perception, allowing certain 'commentators' years later to defend the police / prosecution by saying the defense themselves leaked the document).
This comment is really beyond the pale.
I hope that this particular leak gives Amanda and Raffaele hope, and the public support for the accused a boost- a leak for good, not evil like MANY of the previous leaks by the police in this case.
Also, when these results are brought to court in May, I hope some journalists question Maresca very hard about this quote, as the second part implies (sneakily!) that these results are not genuine and will not be brought to court.
I would also remark that Maresca is speaking as the lawyer for the victim's family here.

 

[LondonJohn]

Greetings all!

I've taken a break from posting, but have been reading from time to time. A combination of other commitments and a wish to step back from the petty squabbling and over-invested opinionating (mostly, of course. on one particular side of the debate...) led me to step back for a while and - in the immortal words of General Melchett in Blackadder 4 - "watch the results as they come in".

So, the knife evidence is bogus, and the police destroyed the bra clasp. Shocking, but hardly unsurprising I suppose. When Curatolo is destroyed on the stand today (and yes, the disco bus issue DOES matter, it matters an awful lot), the prosecution's case will take another huge battering.

I've found it utterly pathetic how some people have tried to position the situation re Curatolo and the DNA retests as either unimportant or - even more incredibly - as some sort of win for the prosecution. It convinces me more than ever that some people on that side of the debate are either stupid, deluded, stubborn, personally vested, or a combination of some/all of the above.

Meredith Kercher died some time between 9pm and 10pm on 1st November 2007 - probably between 9 and 9.30. She most assuredly did not die at 11.40pm. The condition of her stomach and small intestine at autopsy utterly confirms this to be a fact supported by every piece of medical literature and opinion publicly available. I believe that she died at the hands of Rudy Guede after she surprised him by returning home at 9pm, shortly after he'd broken into her then-empty house through Filomena's bedroom window. I don't believe that either Knox or Sollecito were involved in the murder or the aftermath, although I can't be totally sure of that. What I AM sure of though is that there was never enough evidence to convict Knox or Sollecito of murder, regardless of whether or not they were involved. I believe they will be freed on appeal.

The people who think that the supreme court ruling on Guede has actively negative connotations for Knox's/Sollecito's appeals are either ignorant of the process of law, or they are willfully choosing to misrepresent the situation. It has no connotations either way regarding Knox's/Sollecito's judgement. Full stop.

So, I'll be carrying on reading and following the appeal. I'm pretty confident that by the end of the summer both Knox and Sollecito will have been found not guilty on appeal.

Oh and by the way a big welcome to all-new JREF poster "Branded". Interestingly, the film "The Big Lebowski" features references to a TV show called "Branded" (The Dude thinks his car has been stolen by the son of one of "Branded's" fictional scriptwriters). There's also a character in "The Big Lebowski" named Jackie Treehorn. And if I remember correctly, the poster with the name "Treehorn" was.... ahem....disinvited from JREF. Small world, eh?!

 

[billyryan]

LOL. Yes, I consider myself flogged on that one, and I will take your criticism constructively. No, I have not seen a report that indicated he was using heroin on that particular night, although I am not certain any longer of what night it is he is even talking about.

The MSNBC report quotes Chris Mellas as saying things could not have gone better this morning in court,
Only the judge asked Curatolo questions the defence attorneys did not deem it necessary

Curatolo is gone but not without casting a long shadow on the people who asked him to testify in the first place