Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris C]

What about the YSTR analysis? That couldn't have come from Meredith.

Explain how it came from Sollecito and be specific on which rfu markers were identified using Y-STR analysis.

 

[Chris C]

Chris C,

I have some questions about the objectivity of the first analysis myself, and I have expressed those views here in previous comments. Therefore, I would welcome an independent (and non-suspect centered) analysis of the autosomal DNA. However, I think that the YSTR data support the notion that Sollecito's DNA is present.

Y-STR analysis identified some of the Y-chromosome dna in the Sollecito profile, however, not all the dna profile attributed to sollecito has been shown to be male.

 

[Kaosium]

Is there something wrong if he did?

Considering the direction the money is going, I'd say instead he was put on the staff of the Daily Mail...

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Watch out for 'accidental' translation errors which inexplicably always seem to favour the prosecution.

I am aware of only one error in the Massei translation the PMF community did that favours the prosecution, and it's a mostly inconsequential one.

While there are all sorts of reasons to view the PMF community as a toxic, insular hate cult who are totally out of touch with reality, I know of no reason to think that they are likely to falsify the translation.

Based on previous experience they will translate it accurately and then creatively misunderstand it in all sorts of ways.

 

[babycondor]

As i understand it, they testified that no disco shuttle buses as described by Curatolo were running that night.

One would think that if there had been any disco buses as described by Curatolo running that night, the prosecution would have been able to drum up a club owner or even a bus driver to testify to it. The fact that they apparently have not been able to do so (at least so far) should tell you something.

 

[Kaosium]

Explain how it came from Sollecito and be specific on which rfu markers were identified using Y-STR analysis.

The small piece of material with hooks yielded genetic result showing a mixture of the DNA of the victim and of Raffaele Sollecito. This result was obtained both by complete analysis of the DNA as a true mixture, and as a genetic result obtained on the Y haplotype.

I can't, I'm going from the Massei Report, he isn't very specific. I'd be delighted if you could tell me he was in error, as it would be better for Raffaele if Stefanoni just picked and chose enough alleles to make most of a profile.

What makes you think the Y-STR results noted above are invalid?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I can't, I'm going from the Massei Report, he isn't very specific. I'd be delighted if you could tell me he was in error, as it would be better for Raffaele if Stefanoni just picked and chose enough alleles to make most of a profile.

What makes you think the Y-STR results noted above are invalid?

Incorrect post, sorry.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

One would think that if there had been any disco buses as described by Curatolo running that night, the prosecution would have been able to drum up a club owner or even a bus driver to testify to it. The fact that they apparently have not been able to do so (at least so far) should tell you something.

I believe the witnesses that spoke the other week were for the defence, therefore, would it not be prudent to wait until the prosecution presents their view and witnesses then maybe provide an opinion? Just an idea.

 

[Justinian2]

If Amanda's plea is successful in getting the judge to block the Amanda Knox movie...

1) It means the judge probably doesn't believe in the conspiracy between Guede, Amanda and Raffaele.

2) It opens the doors for suits against Lifetime.

3) It indicates that Amanda will soon be free.


If Amanda sues Lifetime and wins, I wonder if Lifetime will include that in the sequel.

Were I a judge, I'd chuckle to myself at that scenario.

 

[babycondor]

I believe the witnesses that spoke the other week were for the defence, therefore, would it not be prudent to wait until the prosecution presents their view and witnesses then maybe provide an opinion? Just an idea.

Noted.

 

[pilot padron]

One would think that if there had been any disco buses as described by Curatolo running that night, the prosecution would have been able to drum up a club owner or even a bus driver to testify to it. The fact that they apparently have not been able to do so (at least so far) should tell you something.

Given the fact that the hearing on 12mar was allocated primarily to witnesses testifying for the defense and the upcoming hearing on 26mar is allocated mainly to rebuttal witnesses testifying for the prosecution, your above argument actually does not tell me anything.

The prosecution rebuttal witnesses, including Mr Curatolo, have been 'drummed up' weeks ago and are*patiently* waiting to be heard as scheduled by the Court.

 

[babycondor]

Given the fact that the hearing on 12mar was allocated primarily to witnesses testifying for the defense and the upcoming hearing on 26mar is allocated mainly to rebuttal witnesses testifying for the prosecution, your above argument actually does not tell me anything.

The prosecution rebuttal witnesses, including Mr Curatolo, have been 'drummed up' weeks ago and are*patiently* waiting to be heard as scheduled by the Court.

Yes. I did say "at least so far."

It does seem odd that in all this time no one has come forward to confirm that their disco bus was running that night. Not even one. You would think with the tabloids being all over this case like lint on a cheap suit, someone would have sold this juicy tidbit to them by now, if it existed. But alas, no.

However, it is possible the prosecution has a secret disco bus witness waiting in the wings. We'll know in a couple of days.

 

[pilot padron]

Yes. I did say "at least so far."

It does seem odd that in all this time no one has come forward to confirm that their disco bus was running that night. Not even one. You would think with the tabloids being all over this case like lint on a cheap suit, someone would have sold this juicy tidbit to them by now, if it existed. But alas, no.

However, it is possible the prosecution has a secret disco bus witness waiting in the wings. We'll know in a couple of days.

Understandably, the defense, and the general tenor of this Board seems obsessed with the concept of a game changing presence and identity of busses and particularly busses of a specific color, size, design, and purpose.

In fact, the Court is charged with determining the overall credibility of Mr Curatolo's entire testimony.

You are correct in that we'll have a better insight in a couple of days.

In the meantime I might humbly suggest that the lower Court was not deterred from deeming Ms Capezzali's testimony as credible just because upon cross examination the defense attorney pulled a cheap, first year law school, theatrical ambush on a 70 year old woman by asking her the exact calendar date of the night (over a year ago) that she heard the scream.

For the jurors, and anyone else not agenda blinded or afflicted with confirmation bias, and/or a conspiracy mindset, her explanation that it was simply the night before all the police activity was visible at the cottage was certainly sufficiently convincing.

Similarly, Mr Curatolo's overall credibility, and contribution to the proceedings, as well as the defendant's guilt or innocence, may not sink or swim solely on this disco bus issue....particularly as it has been presented *so far*.

 

[Kaosium]

Understandably, the defense, and the general tenor of this Board seems obsessed with the concept of a game changing presence and identity of busses and particularly busses of a specific color, size, design, and purpose.

In fact, the Court is charged with determining the overall credibility of Mr Curatolo's entire testimony.

You are correct in that we'll have a better insight in a couple of days.

In the meantime I might humbly suggest that the lower Court was not deterred from deeming Ms Capezzali's testimony as credible just because upon cross examination the defense attorney pulled a cheap, first year law school, theatrical ambush on a 70 year old woman by asking her the exact calendar date of the night (over a year ago) that she heard the scream.

For the jurors, and anyone else not agenda blinded or afflicted with confirmation bias, and/or a conspiracy mindset, her explanation that it was simply the night before all the police activity was visible at the cottage was certainly sufficiently convincing.

Similarly, Mr Curatolo's overall credibility, and contribution to the proceedings, as well as the defendant's guilt or innocence, may not sink or swim solely on this disco bus issue....particularly as it has been presented *so far*.

Disco buses, smack dealing, all that comes to naught in my mind compared to being a witness in three murder trials in about five years. I understand that Italy has special procedures to deal with 'professional witnesses,' would that apply to Curatolo and if not, why not?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

frozen samples

I think that the Y-haplotype test moved the analysis away from suspect centered.

There is a question I am not sure of the answer which I also asked at Perugia-Shock. It concerns whether there is any more extracted DNA from the clasp to test.

Page 199 Massei Motivations -PMF

According to this passage is there additional, stored, extracted DNA from the clasp which can be tested? Is that even possible?

Christianahannah,

I am not sure, but I think that when one extracts DNA, one often does not amplify all of it. So there might be more DNA to test. However, Stefanoni makes some good points about storing samples in the freezer. My experience is based on proteins, not DNA, but some of the same factors come into play. When one freezes a sample, one subjects it to shearing forces and changes in pH, and these might damage DNA.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

read all about it

Understandably, the defense, and the general tenor of this Board seems obsessed with the concept of a game changing presence and identity of busses and particularly busses of a specific color, size, design, and purpose.

In fact, the Court is charged with determining the overall credibility of Mr Curatolo's entire testimony.

You are correct in that we'll have a better insight in a couple of days.

In the meantime I might humbly suggest that the lower Court was not deterred from deeming Ms Capezzali's testimony as credible just because upon cross examination the defense attorney pulled a cheap, first year law school, theatrical ambush on a 70 year old woman by asking her the exact calendar date of the night (over a year ago) that she heard the scream.

For the jurors, and anyone else not agenda blinded or afflicted with confirmation bias, and/or a conspiracy mindset, her explanation that it was simply the night before all the police activity was visible at the cottage was certainly sufficiently convincing.

pilot padron,
Did Ms. Capezzali not claim to read about the murder in the following morning's paper? That would call her testimony into question, would it not?

 

[RWVBWL]

Why didn't Dr. Stefanoni open the knife handle?

Hi everyone,
I am not going to get into the finer details of the knife testings, but I wonder of something.

When Dr. Stefanoni kept getting a Too Low reading as she tested the knife, why didn't she afterwards have the knife handle taken apart and she could have then run testing on it herself?

I ask this becuase if Meredith Kercher's blood were found inside the knife handle, my mind might truly change to support a pro-guilt position. But this testing has never happened and it might not ever happen, since recently we watched the prosecution oppose taking apart the knife handle. I think that is strange. Why wouldn't the prosecution want the knife handle opened and tested to further solidify their case against Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox?

And why didn't Dr. Stefanoni open and test the inside of the knife handle for blood a long time ago?

 

[Chris C]

I can't, I'm going from the Massei Report, he isn't very specific. I'd be delighted if you could tell me he was in error, as it would be better for Raffaele if Stefanoni just picked and chose enough alleles to make most of a profile.

What makes you think the Y-STR results noted above are invalid?

Part of the disputed alleles in Sollecito's profile are also part of Meredith's profile.

 

[Kaosium]

Hi everyone,
I am not going to get into the finer details of the knife testings, but I wonder of something.

When Dr. Stefanoni kept getting a Too Low reading as she tested the knife, why didn't she afterwards have the knife handle taken apart and she could have then run testing on it herself?

I ask this becuase if Meredith Kercher's blood were found inside the knife handle, my mind might truly change to support a pro-guilt position. But this testing has never happened and it might not ever happen, since recently we watched the prosecution oppose taking apart the knife handle. I think that is strange. Why wouldn't the prosecution want the knife handle opened and tested to further solidify their case against Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox?

And why didn't Dr. Stefanoni open and test the inside of the knife handle for blood a long time ago?

If they were to crack open up that knife and find Meredith's blood, it would open the whole case back up. That would definitely imply one or both were involved at some level, and certainly tried to cover it up, the piss-poor job they did of it leaving traces (that could be misidentified as Raffaele's especially) all over and leading the cops right to them would become more than the tortured rationalizations of a PMFer in heat, they would actually resemble truth.

You bring to mind a question I've not read on this board in a long time, well, as long as I was reading the archived thread(s) at least. One guess would be they didn't think they needed to, though a decent argument could be made that they didn't dare to. As in they knew what the result would be, as they knew that knife never left the drawer that night, but they used it anyway as they figured the jury would never come to that realization. DNA seems to be a 'magic' word with some, one that Google Translate renders as 'guilty as hell.'

 

[Kaosium]

Frank Nails It

Something I came across when looking for something else I need to dig up: when going through Frank Sfarzo's old posts looking for information on the interrogation I came across a reference to Cappezalli's first mention of the scream, and I read it as her initially claiming it was around 9 PM. Naturally since that didn't fit their narrative they must have 'modified' it, (by her bladder if I recall correctly from Massei) but that would correlate to when it seems most likely she could have heard a scream...one not impeded by the window at the cottage as that had been broken already....

I've been looking, but I haven't been finding, I asked Frank if he remembered when he might have posted that, if it isn't just my mind (or eyes) playing tricks on me. However in the process of going back to the beginning, as Nara came forward about a month later as I recall, I was struck by the progress Frank made with his English and especially his writing skill. In the beginning, almost no one read his blog--or at least commented--and half the time it was in Italian and the other half looked like it was mangled by Google Translate which does such wonders with Italian as we've all noticed.

(Anyone notice how it use to render females as masculine pronouns, then 'progressed' to calling them 'its' ('you've come a long way baby!' ) and now seems to mix up male and female pronouns at a whim, so now you have no clue who they're referring to if both a male and female are in the paragraph which often happens with Raffaele and Amanda?)

However in the process of going back through all of those old posts I came across this one which struck me as illustrating perfectly just how good Frank had gotten at the artistry of his trade in English, even though he admits to it as 'broken' here, there's beauty in the prose. The whole post is good, but I'll just excerpt the powerful final words:

And so, most of the events were clarified, an experienced lawyer was made ridiculous by this girl who, strong of the strength that only truth an integrity can give us, was able to face him without any problem, even in Italian, and to shut him up.

For those of us, who figured out how things really were long time ago, today, listening to the truth emerging from the spell of a girl, listening to a version that perfectly adds up, was the happiness. The scientific results have no power in front of what the logic tells us. If they are doubtful, then...

Yesterday even the New York Times, thanks to Seattle journalist Timothy Egan, woke up and found out that Amanda is innocent. There's no better pleasure than enjoying the spectacle of the emerging truth and the ideas of the logic conquering the world (even in broken English).

I was curious and I asked Mignini if he also heard the voice of innocence today. But no way, he's deaf to such spell.

And he's not the only one. For all right-thinking people, for all those who prefer to live under the shade of suspicion and resentment no matter how perfect Amanda 's version could be, it's because she's a great actress... Certainly as an actress --since she was able not to do any mistake in 6 hours interrogation, not to have a single moment of difficulty, not to give a single glance to her lawyers under what was supposed to be a pressing progression of terrible questions-- she must have a talent never seen before in nature.

They don't know what they are missing, the right-thinking people... They may even have good satisfactions in their lives, but they will not hear the sound of happiness.

This must be the moment even Andrea Vogt, the voice of PMF in the media, gave her kudos for.


I know exactly what he was talking about, I had a moment like that recently I posted about, either here or elsewhere. I'd been wading through the lies, half-truths and evasions of ILE and the prosecution about the interrogation and finally got to the testimony of Amanda and it was like a bird singing through the din, that first bird of spring when the ground is still sludge from the melted snow and everything is brown and ugly, but it still just makes you happy.