• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Gage's next debate

Did anyone else notice the other faked bit of footage Gage slipped in?
Just sent a message to Chris about it, it was the explosion sound that was dubbed over the guy on the payphone. I can't seem to find the thread about it on here, so if anyone can help out.

Ta.
 
At one point offstage I told Richard I wasn't sure what I was debating: thermates or nanothermites, can you please tell me? He said nanothermites for the twin towers (explosive) and thermates for Building 7 (thus less lateral ejection and less noise).

That is a bogus explanation though. Heck, their own homepage says, in bold print no less:

WTC Building #7, a 47-story high-rise not hit by an airplane, exhibited all the characteristics of classic controlled demolition with explosives:

And even in this debate he mentioned the whole McPadden thing. This is not meant as a criticism of you, I have debated these people, trying to track all of their arguments is maddening.
 
I really shouldn't make a big deal about though. Gravy is a tour guide and he had Richie crying in a puddle of his own piss. So maybe Rev. Mohr will put up a better fight than I am presuming.
OTOH, regardless his profession, Gravy is not an idiot. There's a lot to be said for that. A BIG lot. :D

Considering the tour guide gig, myself. Chicago has so many sites, and even more with the right wiggle room spin. As a practitioner of misdirection, Mr R wouldn't object to a member scalping some rubes making a few bucks, would he?

It can be surprising how quickly a joke can turn into a business proposal.
 
Did anyone else notice the other faked bit of footage Gage slipped in?
Just sent a message to Chris about it, it was the explosion sound that was dubbed over the guy on the payphone. I can't seem to find the thread about it on here, so if anyone can help out.

Ta.


I believe it's discussed in these threads (among others):
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79704
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2444428#post2444428

Hope that helps.
 
I suggested in the debate that the iron microspheres probably came from the 1972-73 welders. In welding the steel parts of the building together, the workers brought the steel up to very high temperatures with their torches and white-hot steel sprayed all over the place. Thus, microspheres everywhere.
Chris,

That is just unsubstantiated speculation.

The RJ Lee Group said:
"Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC
event,
producing spherical metallic particles. Exposure of phases to high
heat results in the formation of spherical particles due to surface tension.
Figure 21 and Figure 22 show a spherical iron particle resulting from the
melting of iron (or steel)
."
Steel melts at 2750oF and Iron melts at 2800oF

The RJ Lee Group confirms even higher temperatures were attained:
"Many of the materials, such as lead, cadmium, mercury and various organic compounds,
vaporized and then condensed during the WTC Event."
http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/WTC/130 ...ignature.Composition and Morphology.Final.pdf

Lead Melting point 622oF [328oC]
Boiling point - Vaporization 3182oF [1,750oC]
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/melting-boiling-temperatures-d_392.html
 
Chris,

That is just unsubstantiated speculation.

The RJ Lee Group said:
"Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC
event,
producing spherical metallic particles. Exposure of phases to high
heat results in the formation of spherical particles due to surface tension.
Figure 21 and Figure 22 show a spherical iron particle resulting from the
melting of iron (or steel)
."
Steel melts at 2750oF and Iron melts at 2800oF

The RJ Lee Group confirms even higher temperatures were attained:
"Many of the materials, such as lead, cadmium, mercury and various organic compounds,
vaporized and then condensed during the WTC Event."
http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/WTC/130 ...ignature.Composition and Morphology.Final.pdf

Lead Melting point 622oF [328oC]
Boiling point - Vaporization 3182oF [1,750oC]
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/melting-boiling-temperatures-d_392.html
Could you point to the part of that report where they concluded this was suspicious?
 
Clean up and WTC collapse dust, RJ Lee

...
That is just unsubstantiated speculation.

...
It is better than that! He is right, but must include clean up cuts in the thousands. No thermite was found. The dust in this study included material and vapors spread during clean up.

... The study includes vapor and dust from clean up. Months of cutting torches. Months of melting steel columns to clean up.

The samples were taken from the Deutsche Bank. There was a big hole in the Deutsche Bank. In 2002 the samples were taken which included dust from clean up.

Are you trying to be silly by cherry-picking this report? What was your goal?

Guess who wanted the study? Deutsche Bank. What did they need the study for?

130 Liberty Street property. Deutsche Bank was unsalvageable. The dust was collected when? June 2002. Clean up dust.
 
Last edited:
It is better than that! He is right, but must include clean up cuts in the thousands.
He has no idea, he was just speculating. RJ Lee said the iron was melted and the lead vaporized during the WTC event.

No thermite was found.
They did not look for it.

The dust in this study included material and vapors spread during clean up. The samples were taken from the Deutsche Bank. There was a big hole in the Deutsche Bank. In 2002 the samples were taken which included dust from clean up. The samples were taken from the Deutsche Bank. There was a big hole in the Deutsche Bank. In 2002 the samples were taken which included dust from clean up.
That would not account for the spheres and lead vapor getting into inaccessible places. Lead vapor and microscopic spheres might get into the Bankers Trust building, they would not be forced into places the dust cloud from the collapses went.

I included the quote about the contamination during the cleanup.

RJ Lee Group report 2003
Pg 4 [pdf pg 5]
The pressure differential was caused by the onrush of the WTC Dust cloud that was created by the collapse of the WTC Towers with a low pressure inside Building components and high pressure outside. A huge pressure difference was created that caused large quantities of dust laden air to move through unplanned pathways. Individual components or devices with internal spaces effectively acted like a vacuum cleaner pulling the dust into them with great force.
Pg 5
The investigations proved that the Building is pervasively contaminated with WTC Dust, unique to the WTC Event.
Pg 6
As a result of microscopic and chemical analysis of the components of the WTC Dust, it was determined that the average level of contaminants were present in direct proportion to one another throughout the Building,
Pg 10
The characteristics of the dust are a result of the collapse of the WTC Towers and the subsequent fires at the WTC site which collectively were unique events that produced unique dust.
Pg 11
The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicate the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool.
http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/WTC/130%20Liberty%20Street/Mike%20Davis%20LMDC%20130%20Liberty%20Documents/Signature%20of%20WTC%20dust/WTCDustSignature_ExpertReport.051304.1646.mp.pdf
 
Last edited:
He has no idea, he was just speculating. RJ Lee said the iron was melted and the lead vaporized during the WTC event.

...
Office fires are extremely hot, we know that. People jumped instead of burning in extremely hot fires which melt Pb.

Not turthful. The dust was collected in 2002 after clean up of the WTC collapse. That means the dust was from collapse and clean up.


RJ Lee said nothing, not a thing! The report said the dust was collected after the clean up.

The melted steel was during clean up. Failure is 911 truth, don't join the anti-intellectual movement.
http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/photosoftorch-cutsteel
The dust was collect right next to Ground Zero.
http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/WTCTorchAngleCuts1-full.jpg
This is where the melted steel came from. Cuts made after 911. Thousands of cuts made after 911.
 
Last edited:
Office fires are extremely hot, we know that. People jumped instead of burning in extremely hot fires which melt Pb.
Not hot enough to melt iron or vaporize lead.

Not turthful.
Truthful.

The dust was collected in 2002 after clean up of the WTC collapse. That means the dust was from collapse and clean up.
Correct, but the RJ Lee Group said:
"Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC event"

ETA:Only the dust near the gash in the front of the building would be contain dust from the cleanup. Did you read the part about the dust cloud?
The microspheres from torches is just more speculation.

"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicate the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse "
 
Last edited:
Not hot enough to melt iron or vaporize lead.

Truthful.

Correct, but the RJ Lee Group said:
"Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC event"

ETA:Only the dust near the gash in the front of the building would be contain dust from the cleanup. Did you read the part about the dust cloud?
The microspheres from torches is just more speculation.

"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicate the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse "
During clean up the steel was cut, melted. Truthful

The dust study you presented was dust from the WTC collapse and clean up. The iron was melted during the clean up. Proof is presented again, do deny the evidence means you are spreading lies.

http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/photosoftorch-cutsteel
http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/WTCTorchAngleCuts1-full.jpg
The dust was collected right next to this! To deny this is spreading lies. The dust was collected After May 2002, after clean up. If you deny this you are telling lies, spreading delusions, making up nonsense.

"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicate the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse "
The heat of an office fire is extremely high temperature. The melted lead was vaporized during the collapse which was the energy equal over 200 TONS of TNT. Lead temperature above 1000°F will increase lead fumes, office fires exceed 1000 F and jet fuel fires exceed 1200 F.


Extra credit

The concentration of Pb (lead) on the mineral wool (aka insulation) was 0.04 percent. That can be accounted for from many sources including batteries. I have over 10 UPS in my house; was there a whole floor of UPS in the WTC? There was 67 percent carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, sodium, silicon, sulfur, chlorine, calcium "vaporized" (found) on the mineral wool.

0.04 percent, 1/2500.
 
Last edited:
During clean up the steel was cut, melted. Truthful

The dust study you presented was dust from the WTC collapse and clean up. The iron was melted during the clean up.
The overpressure of the dust cloud created by the collapses forced the dust all thru the Bankers Trust building. Dust from the debris pile was stirred up in the cleanup process adding to the dust in the gouge area but not all the areas reached by the dust cloud.

No, the dust samples were collected from various places in and on top of the Bankers Trust building.
Iron micro spheres are still iron and will fall to the earth before traveling too far unless carried by a force like the dust cloud from the collapses.

The heat of an office fire is extremely high temperature.
Residential fires burn at around 1400oF. Unless you have data confirming higher temperatures for office fires then that is a good estimate of how hot the fires were. The vaporized lead condensed on the fibers after they were blown into tiny pieces. Any lead vapors during the fires would have vented with the smoke and the collapse put out the those fires so there would be virtually no vapors during the collapse.

The melted lead was vaporized during the collapse which was the energy equal over 200 TONS of TNT.
You will have to produce data to prove that the collapse produced the necessary temperatures to vaporize lead if you want to make that claim.

jet fuel fires exceed 1200oF
Jet fuel burns at 500-600oF in open air.
http://mepetroleum.com/jet_fuel.htm

was there a whole floor of UPS in the WTC?
The batteries were most likely nickel-cadmium because they are lighter and have a longer shelf life but again, the collapse put the office fires out. The vaporized lead condensed on the fibers after they were blown into tiny pieces.
 
The overpressure of the dust cloud created by the collapses forced the dust all thru the Bankers Trust building. Dust from the debris pile was stirred up in the cleanup process adding to the dust in the gouge area but not all the areas reached by the dust cloud.
What? You are making up nonsense with the only source as you.

No, the dust samples were collected from various places in and on top of the Bankers Trust building.
Iron micro spheres are still iron and will fall to the earth before traveling too far unless carried by a force like the dust cloud from the collapses.
Source, show me the source. Because the paper tell me the dust came from after the clean up, which means the melted steel stuff is from clean up too.

You better read the paper again.

Residential fires burn at around 1400oF. Unless you have data confirming higher temperatures for office fires then that is a good estimate of how hot the fires were. The vaporized lead condensed on the fibers after they were blown into tiny pieces. Any lead vapors during the fires would have vented with the smoke and the collapse put out the those fires so there would be virtually no vapors during the collapse.
OOPS, lead vapor becomes a hazard above 1000 F. You just gave me 1400 F. Source your stuff; look it up. Would 200 TONS of TNT kinetic energy vaporize melted Pb?

You will have to produce data to prove that the collapse produced the necessary temperatures to vaporize lead if you want to make that claim.

Jet fuel burns at 500-600oF in open air.
http://mepetroleum.com/jet_fuel.htm
... studies show jet fuel melts aluminum alloys. Why do you cherry pick the wrong study? Wait, it says...
980°C (1796 °F) Confirmation it melts Al. Do you read your sources, and understand the WTC was not open air?

Dude; I was in the USAF, I have been at aircraft crashes, the Al melts in fires from jet fuel. I have studies that show temperatures in jet fuel fires get to 1200 F and melt Al. Your source says 1796 F.

The batteries were most likely nickel-cadmium because they are lighter and have a longer shelf life but again, the collapse put the office fires out. The vaporized lead condensed on the fibers after they were blown into tiny pieces.
Seriously, why do you make this up as you go?

The collapse most likely vaporized the liquid Pb, with the energy of over 200 TONS of TNT from the collapse. Think about it, 200 2,000 pound bombs worth of kinetic energy.

Batteries were lead acid. Better get a new source.

Do you own UPS? Lead Acid. Let me check again.
Yep, lead acid. Pb.

http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/WTC/130 ...ignature.Composition and Morphology.Final.pdf This study used dust collected after the WTC clean up.
 
Last edited:
Better source of lead and somewhat of a clarification of what the "WTC Event" is referring to:

Building materials from which the WTC Towers were constructed include structural steel, asbestos-containing insulation material, other insulating fibrous material (mineral wool and glass fibers), cement and aggregate (concrete), wallboard, ceiling tiles, ducts, wiring, paint, plate glass, and other components. Building contents of the WTC included computers and other electronic equipment, fluorescent lights, furniture, office supplies, and a myriad of other items. The brittle and friable components of these materials were pulverized during the collapse and the combustible components were partially burned in the ensuing fires.
The catastrophic structural collapse of the WTC resulted in coarse fragmentation as well as fine particle dust generation including asbestos and various chemicals of concern. The hazardous materials in the dust originated from many common sources. The National Resources Defense Council (NRDC) report estimated more than 1.2 million tons of building materials collapsed during the WTC Event containing an estimated 300 to 400 tons of asbestos. (NRDC, 2002) Additionally, 50,000 personal computers were destroyed, with each containing approximately 4 pounds of lead. (NRDC, 2002) Additionally, thousands of fluorescent light bulbs, thousands of light switches and other mercury-containing items were destroyed, releasing thousands of grams of mercury into the surrounding environment. These materials, properly contained and applied in their consumer products and form, presented no particular environmental or health hazard. It was, however, the pulverization of these items caused by the WTC collapse that liberated and rendered them bio-accessible, thus creating an environmental hazard.

http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/WTC/130 ...ignature.Composition and Morphology.Final.pdf

There's an easy 100 tons of shredded lead for ya!
 
Last edited:
C7 said:
The overpressure of the dust cloud created by the collapses forced the dust all thru the Bankers Trust building. Dust from the debris pile was stirred up in the cleanup process adding to the dust in the gouge area but not all the areas reached by the dust cloud.
What? You are making up nonsense with the only source as you.
Wrong.
You did not read my second post:
RJ Lee Group report 2003
Pg 4 [pdf pg 5]
"The pressure differential was caused by the onrush of the WTC Dust cloud that was created by the collapse of the WTC Towers with a low pressure inside Building components and high pressure outside. A huge pressure difference was created that caused large quantities of dust laden air to move through unplanned pathways. Individual components or devices with internal spaces effectively acted like a vacuum cleaner pulling the dust into them with great force."

There was no such huge pressure difference during the cleanup.

C7 said:
No, the dust samples were collected from various places in and on top of the Bankers Trust building.
Iron micro spheres are still iron and will fall to the earth before traveling too far unless carried by a force like the dust cloud from the collapses.
Source, show me the source. Because the paper tell me the dust came from after the clean up, which means the melted steel stuff is from clean up too.
Wrong again.
"The collapse of a major building can produce significant quantities of dust and debris comprised of the construction materials and the contents of the building. . . . . The WTC disaster uniquely combined several cataclysmic destructive processes in a single event. This report evaluates the features of the WTC Dust and WTC Hazardous Substances deposited in the Building as a result of the collapse, ground impact, fires, pressure forces, and other phenomena arising from the WTC Event.

You better read the paper again.

OOPS, lead vapor becomes a hazard above 1000 F. You just gave me 1400 F.
But the vapor left the building with the smoke.

Would 200 TONS of TNT kinetic energy vaporize melted Pb?
Show me a source that says how much heat would be created in a building collapse.

WRONG studies show jet fuel melts aluminum.
The company that makes jet fuel says it burns at 500-600oF in open air. You want a letter from God? :biggrin:

980°C (1796 °F) Confirmation it melts Al. Do you read your sources, and understand the WTC was not open air??? lol
Wrong yet again. Open air means not in a jet engine. OK, if you hold a piece of aluminum behind a jet engine you can melt it but it's not a particularly good idea.

Dude; I was in the USAF, I have been at aircraft crashes, the Al melts in fires from jet fuel. I have studies that show temperatures in jet fuel fires get past 1200 F and melt Al.
Source?

Batteries were lead acid.
Source?

Because of the weight; ~540 lb/ft3 v ~710 lb/ft3http://www.reade.com/Particle_Briefings/spec_gra2.html
and long life; [12 v 20 yrs]
http://www.emergencypowersystems.org.uk/upload/sec7/StandbyBatteriesBrochure11-08R1.pdf

the backup systems were most likely nickel-cadmium.

"They are used in aviation, rail and mass transit, backup power for telecoms . . . . ."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-cadmium_battery_vented_cell_type
 
Last edited:
Better source of lead and somewhat of a clarification of what the "WTC Event" is referring to:

http://www.nyenvirolaw.org/WTC/130 ...ignature.Composition and Morphology.Final.pdf

There's an easy 100 tons of shredded lead for ya!
Well done. ;)

OK, there was plenty of lead present.

"The brittle and friable components of these materials were pulverized during the collapse and the combustible components were partially burned in the ensuing fires."

However

It takes a while or extreme temperatures to heat lead to the point of vaporization and the collapse put the office fires out. Another source of heat vaporized the lead in seconds on the way down and into the Bankers Trust building.

Just think of all the possibilities:

Thermite

???
 
Well done. ;)

OK, there was plenty of lead present.

"The brittle and friable components of these materials were pulverized during the collapse and the combustible components were partially burned in the ensuing fires."

However

It takes a while or extreme temperatures to heat lead to the point of vaporization and the collapse put the office fires out. Another source of heat vaporized the lead in seconds on the way down and into the Bankers Trust building.

Just think of all the possibilities:

Thermite

???
How do you get your lead in the thermite? You make this up as you go.

Mineral wool made before 1970 already had lead in it, vaporized as it was made. The heat in the WTC was enough to liberate vapor at the levels in the study done after the WTC clean up.

Source? No temperature to go with your extreme? What temperature are vapors present from lead, Pb? Present proof for your claims; like science stuff.

The fires did not go out in the collapse, they kept burning because fuel from the WTC was still there, on fire.

Al from aircraft melts in jet fuel fires. You have failed to find the study? It is on-line. good luck, you posted the max temperate burning of jet fuel, at 980°C (1796 °F), you refute your own claim. You claim 1796 F in a source you gave me, I have source from my air force classes that open pools of jet fuel can reach 2,000 F. And another source fuel fires reach 1200 F in a seconds and start melting Al. This means you are cherry picking, and ignoring.
found another 800 c for jet fuel fire; can 911 truth? No
Most UPS products use lead acid batteries - I forgot to tell you why, but you are not trying to listen. Not a single Ni-Cd in my UPS. What does your UPS have? Pb, when the batteries shorted, what happens? Ever seen a battery explode? Sizzle?
 
Last edited:
Well done. ;)

OK, there was plenty of lead present.

"The brittle and friable components of these materials were pulverized during the collapse and the combustible components were partially burned in the ensuing fires."

However

It takes a while or extreme temperatures to heat lead to the point of vaporization and the collapse put the office fires out. Another source of heat vaporized the lead in seconds on the way down and into the Bankers Trust building.

Just think of all the possibilities:

Thermite

???

I work on industrial batteries. You can melt chunks of lead with basically a sterno. That's one way we sweat inter-cell connectors. The smaller the pieces the easier they are to melt. Lead shredded into very very tiny pieces would be very easy to melt, especially in the massive and very hot underground fires after the collapse.

The report you cite says "pulverized during the collapse and the combustible components were partially burned in the ensuing fires."
 

Back
Top Bottom