Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

[humber]

Strawman. No wonder you are having trouble with this - you are seeing things that are not there. Nowhere in any of my posts or in the screen shots have I done and "sums".It is clear from the video that the back axle ends up at a right angle to its initial position after being moved. All the arrows do is serve as the initial reference to position one.

No. You see it has just finished traveling ddw, right? So the streamers should be at 90 degrees to the bar, you seem to have settled for a lot less.
When the vehicle is turned the angle should change by the amount the vehicle is turned. Not even close.
That is the point and you can't deny that the streamers do not respond. It is generally recommended to keep all directional indicators as far away from turbulence producing surfaces such as narrow BARS.
30m in the case of road side measurements, to avoid disturbance from the vehicles. Check the NIST recommendations, or do you have special insight into that too?

The POINT of this little sideshow in the thread is that you claim that the streamers are NOT good indicators of wind direction. Now you're saying the ARE?

You missed your calling. Err....no.

So you agree. They are a good indicator of wind direction relative to the cart.But since you've already stated above that,

Don't put words in my mouth, OK?

I have not (ever) made such a claim. It seems the only way you can win an argument is to misrepresent (or, indeed, invent) your opponent's statement.

It's a fact that the deviation falls with the apparent wind.

If the above was a dig at the NASLA Record run data - it wasn't measured by streamer observation. Again, you are constructing arguments from whole cloth as it seems to be the only method which you have to be able to disprove them.

And the trial you are hoping to sell has no official recording or instrumentation.
But it does show, that you are not capable of reading it if it where there.
And keep the use of "strawman" to only ten times a day. M'kay?

ETA:

You have no idea of the performance of the steamer. Where is the calibration data?

Let's say a streamer is know by testing to fly horizontally in a 5mph wind.
The cart is stationary in a 20 mph downwind, so sees a relative wind of 20 mph.
At 15mph, it will see 5mph, so will fall from there.

Repeat, but use one that flies horizontally at 10mph,. and it begins to fall at 10 mph.
Try as many streamers as necessary and trim them or tie them until that point fits your need to show mugs a video.

 

[EHocking]

No. You see it has jut finished traveling ddw, right? So the streamers should be at 90 degrees to the bar, you seem to have settled for a lot less..

Nope. They are pointing towards the front of the craft when it is stationary, i.e., the craft is pointing ddw and the streamers are at right angles to the crossbeams.

That is the point and you can't deny that the streamers do not respond.

Strawman, yet again. I NEVER stated this, in fact, I stated exact opposite. The DO respond - by remaining flying ddw while and after the craft is turned side on to the wind.

When the vehicle is turned the angle should change by the amount the vehicle is turned. Not even close.

The only way this statement can be even close to correct is if you disregard everything that you can see in the video.

After rotating the cart to be side on to the wind, i.e., 90^o to its right, the streamer on the starboard end of the crossbeam flies practically alongside the crossbeam. Harder to tell on the port crossbeam end streamer.

It is generally recommended to keep all directional indicators as far away from turbulence producing surfaces such as narrow BARS.
30m in the case of road side measurements, to avoid disturbance from the vehicles. Check the NIST recommendations, or do you have special insight into that too?

I'm sure you can provide a link to the relevant cite.

You missed your calling. Err....no.

I have repeated quoted you where you have stated that they ARE indicators of wind direction. Your opening sentences in THIS post is you using them as proof of wind direction!!

Look, little zealot, don't put words in my mouth, OK?

In every case I have quoted your exact statement.
Something that you have not reciprocated.

But you see, the cart is not in motion, so the streamers are indicating the true wind.

...
​

It's a fact that the deviation falls with the apparent wind.

Non sequitur. What on earth are you talking about now? It certainly had no relationship to the part of my post that you crowbarred it into.

And the trial you are hoping to sell has no official recording or instrumentation.

Refer to the NALSA Submission Report on the Record attempt. Discussion of instruments used and their accuracy.

But it does show, that you are not capable of reading it if it where there.

Uh, your cute (but wrong) gif further up the thread was derived from numbers in this "non-existent" official recording of the event.

 

[jadebox]

Never mind .....

I was going to post something silly, but there's enough silly stuff in this thread.

-- Roger

 

[phunk]

Drivel. Does it roll down hill when you let go of the thread? If not, what do you think that may mean?

Yes it does roll if you let go.

Some magic, stops the cotton from unwinding?

It's not magic, it's actually pretty simple. I'll draw you a picture.

Experimental error? No, belief that makes Branch Davidian look sane.

No error other than your understanding.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

OK. I still have my trusty reel and cord right here. It works uphill and it works downhill too. Are you bored of being wrong yet?

No little ones, it won't work on an incline.

Do try to keep up, humber. You're supposed to say it's impossible before it's been tested and found to work. Doing so afterwards is a little infra dig even for you.

 

[I Ratant]

Well, I just hauled my spool of line up quite a nice slope. Try it yourself.

What is you enjoy here, humber, the thrill of the attention or the actual fact of being relentlessly wrong in public?

.
Kinda like this....
Thread is pulled off the bobbin.

 

[humber]

Yes it does roll if you let go.

And what error has the Carteer made? He's wrapped the thread, such that the force between the turns prevents it from unwinding. Isn't that right?

I can then say that it rolls down the slope when released, but will not when you hold the thread. Why not put chocks under it?
Once again. its down to the balance of friction. To avoid the obvious , you have made the reel so inefficient that it will be useless.

Try again.

 

[humber]

.
Kinda like this....
Thread is pulled off the bobbin.

Yes, and how stiff is the wire? If you let it go does it roll away? If not,
then what force do you think prevents it?
That total ignorance, means that experimental error gets you every time.

Your great achievement is to show that the reel can be braked by the mere stiffness of binding of the turns. If you knew any math, you would see how that is completely in accord with the equations I presented. The reel's ability to roll forward is controlled by friction. See the math.

And how foolish do you now look. You had to TRY it, to make the error.

 

[humber]

Nope.

Yes,,,,,

You have no idea of the performance of the steamer. Where is the calibration data?
Let's say a streamer is know by testing to fly horizontally in a 5mph wind.
The cart is stationary in a 20 mph downwind, so sees a relative wind of 20 mph.At 15mph, it will see 5mph, so will fall from there.

Repeat, but use one that flies horizontally at 10mph,. and it begins to fall at 10 mph.Try as many streamers as necessary and trim them or tie them until that point fits your need to show mugs a video.

And, your rebuttal is?

 

[humber]

.
Kinda like this....
Thread is pulled off the bobbin.

If you look, you can find the general formulas for the force it takes to overcome the friction between adjacent winding of thread on a reel.
It's useful to know if you need to make a winding machine that does not cause bunching of the thread. That's what prevents the reel from rolling back.

You may be aware that its rather more difficult to haul the metal cable of a winch than it is of silk on a reel.
That's what becomes of ignoring the scale of the forces, and hoping to equate the very small with the large.
And hoping to sense those forces that are below human capacity. Math is a good cure for that.

There has yet to be one Carteerian experiment that is not a failure, due to lack of technical knowledge.

If you make the spindle really small relative to the outer, you may even get it to stay when close to 90 degrees. That's great, but now you need even more force to pull it
Work in = Work out. There will never be a gain.

 

[I Ratant]

Yes, and how stiff is the wire? If you let it go does it roll away? If not,
then what force do you think prevents it?
That total ignorance, means that experimental error gets you every time.

Your great achievement is to show that the reel can be braked by the mere stiffness of binding of the turns. If you knew any math, you would see how that is completely in accord with the equations I presented. The reel's ability to roll forward is controlled by friction. See the math.

And how foolish do you now look. You had to TRY it, to make the error.

.
Binding?
They ain't no steenken' binding between the wraps of the thread on the bobbin.
The wraps are loose, and lying loose on the bobbin.
What keeps the thing from descending on the inclined plane?
The tension on the thread... the tension required to hold the thing in place is less than that required to move the thing up the inclined plane.
I'm beginning to have more second thoughts about the importance of this crap.

 

[EHocking]

Yes,,,,,

You have no idea of the performance of the steamer. Where is the calibration data?

Calibrating a cloth streamer!?


Oh, it was worth reading this thread just for that one sentence.

Let's say a streamer is know by testing to fly horizontally in a 5mph wind.

How did you calibrate this.

The cart is stationary in a 20 mph downwind, so sees a relative wind of 20 mph.At 15mph, it will see 5mph, so will fall from there.

Repeat, but use one that flies horizontally at 10mph,.

Please, please stop. I can't stand it.

and it begins to fall at 10 mph.Try as many streamers as necessary and trim them or tie them until that point fits your need to show mugs a video.

Is it your claim that the crew calibrated the streamers on the craft in order to deceive people viewing the video of the event?

And, your rebuttal is?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Yes, and how stiff is the wire? I used string. Did I do wrong? If you let it go does it roll away? Yup. Look - there it goes. If not, then what force do you think prevents it? The question is not applicable to the real world.
That total ignorance, means that experimental error gets you every time. Still doesn't apply.

Your great achievement is to show that the reel can be braked by the mere stiffness of binding of the turns. Nope I failed to show that. I suspect everyone else did too. If you knew any math, you would see how that is completely in accord with the equations I presented. If you knew some geometry or basic mechanics, then you would see that the maths you presented was irrelevant and useless. This is ably demonstrated by the fact that you got the wrong answer. The reel's ability to roll forward is controlled by friction. See the math. The reel can be drawn uphill. Look - it's doing it again. See the real world.
And how foolish do you now look. You had to TRY it, to make the error.

I bow before the Grand Master of making himself look foolish.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If you look, you can find the general formulas for the force it takes to overcome the friction between adjacent winding of thread on a reel.

When you're grasping at straws, it's important to find straws with good friction, so that you can get a really firm grasp.

Humber, the whole point of wrapping the string once around the reel is to provide friction. It's supposed to be analogous to a chain drive which cannot slip. Don't you remember even that?

 

[humber]

When you're grasping at straws, it's important to find straws with good friction, so that you can get a really firm grasp.

Humber, the whole point of wrapping the string once around the reel is to provide friction. It's supposed to be analogous to a chain drive which cannot slip. Don't you remember even that?

Oh, not really. I expected you would make the mistake.
Sometimes, when unwinding string or rope from a reel, you can find that the reel will dangle from the end.
As I have already told you, it rolls forwards when friction is high enough. The "cotton reel" cart will only be able to support a force that is less than that.
To make it work, ( keep it rolling) you need to increase losses or it will slide.
The math is there to tell you that.

I can find a reel and thread that will roll backwards, and that will leave you to explain why. The answer will not be to your benefit.


The reel has nothing to do with the cart, save for its existence. At first the cart did not stay on the TM belt. Spork tinkered until it did, because he does not have the technical knowledge to see what
was really at work when it did. Same here.

 

[phunk]

And what error has the Carteer made? He's wrapped the thread, such that the force between the turns prevents it from unwinding. Isn't that right?

I can then say that it rolls down the slope when released, but will not when you hold the thread. Why not put chocks under it?
Once again. its down to the balance of friction. To avoid the obvious , you have made the reel so inefficient that it will be useless.

Try again.

Incorrect, the string was loosely wound. Besides, it doesn't just stay put, it winds the string back onto the spool as it is pulled uphill. Binding between the turns of string can't do that.

 

[I Ratant]

The famous hook can pull the reel uphill, with the hook facing down from above the spool, or facing up from below the spool.
The force required to pull the thing up is the same as with the thread, as is the force required to keep the reel in place on the inclined plane.
The relevance of this and the chain wheel thing to driving the propellor on the cart seems tenuous at best.

 

[phunk]

If you think binding between the turns of string on the spool is an issue, it can be done with a spool of ribbon just as easily.

 

[GlennB]

Oh, not really. I expected you would make the mistake.
Sometimes, when unwinding string or rope from a reel, you can find that the reel will dangle from the end.

Wouldn't stop a reel climbing a slope though, eh? Something you previously denied was even possible, you old lathophile you.

 

[humber]

The famous hook can pull the reel uphill, with the hook facing down from above the spool, or facing up from below the spool.

yes. Simple case. The work against gravity up the incline is m*g*h and no amount of gearing changes that. It's the same for horizontal motion too.

The force required to pull the thing up is the same as with the thread, as is the force required to keep the reel in place on the inclined plane.
The relevance of this and the chain wheel thing to driving the propellor on the cart seems tenuous at best.

And so does any test that you are likely to conduct. A cotton reel is not very heavy, but the thread is fine, so the contact pressure is enormous. That scale is a problem that will mislead.

The fact is that only the opposing friction allows the reel to roll forwards.
The torque from the thread will turn it CCW, so to the left - that is clear id you put the reel on a spindle. Only the opposing force of friction to the surface allows it to turn the other way.
It can readily be made to roll the CCW. Apply enough torque and it will.
So what use can it be? In the end you will find that its better to not use the reel idea at all.
There can never be a gain in the work, so eventually, like all other vehicles, power will limit the top speed. In the case of the reel, that will be lower than a simple cart, because the rolling losses must be high enough to prevent the reel sliding or turning the other way.