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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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IDB87 said:
Anyways...

Any new info on that explosion yesterday?
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Apparently one of the victims has died, a British tourist.

eta: 2 members of Islamic Jihad were arrested by the PA in connection with the bombing. Hamas and IJ both expressed support for it. Abbas condemned it, but couldn't do so without equivocating.
 
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Cobalt said:
angrysoba, were you exaggerating for effect with that statement?
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Yes, I was using a bit of hyperbole there. That said, and in fact I even said I was going out on a bit of a limb. I wasn't thinking that anyone would seriously say Israel's policy of existing is the problem and yet anyone who has been around anti-Zionists long enough will know that that is exactly what they mean. On second thoughts, they do tend to say exactly that the problem with Israel is its existence. So maybe I was more right than I knew than when I made that hyperbolic statement.

That said, I was absolutely certain that someone would chime in with a snide remark about the wall not being necessary. I gave Thunder every opportunity to pretend he didn't mean it when he offered that sneer. But instead of taking the way out I offered him he almost sneered his face right off.
 
FireGarden said:
I guess this is more of your sarcasm?
It's just that when you do it all the time it gets to look less flippant and more callous.



I hope they catch whoever set the bomb. I would assume they have plenty of video cameras in that area.
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Thanks. I'm glad you said that. I also hope they catch whoever did it and I find it odd that Thunder has so much to say about this incident without showing much concern.
 
WildCat said:
Apparently one of the victims has died, a British tourist.

eta: 2 members of Islamic Jihad were arrested by the PA in connection with the bombing. Hamas and IJ both expressed support for it. Abbas condemned it, but couldn't do so without equivocating.
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IJ had been responsible for several rocket attacks in the past week or so. Isn't Hamas responsible for reining these thugs in?
 
bigjelmapro said:
Already been covered by Mycroft and I've already answered this.

Israel doesn't issue fishing permits and as of yet, you still have to provide evidence that not being able to fish a few kilometers of ones internal waters is classified as occupation.
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B'tselem says Israel issues permits:
http://www.btselem.org/english/gaza_strip/control_on_air_space_and_territorial_waters.asp

B'tselem said:
In the Interim Agreement, signed by Israel and the PLO, Israel agreed to allow fishing boats from Gaza to go some twenty nautical miles (about thirty-seven kilometers) from the coastline (except for a few areas, to which they were prohibited entry). In practice, Israel did not issue permits to all applicants, and allowed fishing up to a distance of no more than twelve nautical miles. Following the disengagement, Israel reduced the fishing area even more, and since the abduction of the soldier Gilad Shalit, on 25 June 2006, fishermen have not been allowed to go further than three nautical miles from shore.
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I trust them more than you.

And, yes, I will peddle the CIA website again. Because it does support my claim -- it agrees with my claim word for word.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html

CIA said:
West Bank and Gaza Strip are Israeli-occupied with current status subject to the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement - permanent status to be determined through further negotiation; Israel removed settlers and military personnel from the Gaza Strip in August 2005
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Call it argmentum ad populum. That doesn't alter in the slightest the credibility of the CIA. Nor of the UK govt or the EU.

Against that you have Mycroft's source who says: "a reasonable case can be made that Israel retains effective control over Gaza in this potential sense"

http://www.ejiltalk.org/is-gaza-still-occupied-by-israel/

He initially disagrees with that 'reasonable case' but, in his response to the first comment, he admits that he doesn't have the expertise to judge the relevant factor: the ease with which Israel could exercise its control over Gaza. Which undermines the opinion he gave in the main text.

btw,
This is how Mycroft described his source:

Mycroft said:
2) The international attorney who was trained in international humanitarian law who’s argued cases before the International Criminal Court and who is to all appearances politically neutral?
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MarkCorrigan said:
Well, Thunder has stated that because Church and state aren't separate like they are in the US, Israel isn't free (I know it was one of three things he said, but he must think that it must be so for it to be free given how he phrased his post). This is untrue.

In the UK the church has a direct link to our governmental system. It is directly involved in the legislature.
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Virus said:
Yeah the Queen is head of the state religion and they give immigration preference to Commonwealth nations.

Guess the UK isn't a liberal democracy by Parky's standards.
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Yoo hoo, Parky?
 
I must admit I'm surprised to discover that the anti-Israeli position is not predominant on this forum. I've started getting used to the fact that all the freethinker/liberal/godless/etc camp, which I've always considered a home, has been gradually swallowed by the anti-Israeli/anti-Zionist swamp. For me, an Israeli skeptic, it is really painful to see. The sense of betrayal is overwhelming.
 
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AlexBr said:
I must admit I'm surprised to discover that the anti-Israeli position is not predominant on this forum. I've started getting used to the fact that all the freethinker/liberal/godless/etc camp, which I've always considered a home, has been gradually swallowed by the anti-Israeli/anti-Zionist swamp. For me, an Israeli skeptic, it is really painful to see. The sense of betrayal is overwhelming.
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It is bizarre, how the intellectuals in the west have decied to throw their suppport behind fundamentalist religious nutjobs who don't value freedom of speech, assembly, press, religion... none of the things western intellectuals supposedly stand for. And have nothing but vitriolic hatred for the only liberal democracy in the entire middle east.

And then you get the completely clueless, like these guys: http://www.quitpalestine.org/

Throwing their support behind those who would literally kill them if they had the chance, the disconnect is mind-boggling..
 
AlexBr said:
I must admit I'm surprised to discover that the anti-Israeli position is not predominant on this forum. I've started getting used to the fact that all the freethinker/liberal/godless/etc camp, which I've always considered a home, has been gradually swallowed by the anti-Israeli/anti-Zionist swamp. For me, an Israeli skeptic, it is really painful to see. The sense of betrayal is overwhelming.
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It's an example of tribalism, peer pressure and group-think. A lot of people, even while feeling that they are free thinking individuals, tend to adopt the world view of their peer group.

One of the most depressing things I have seen is the lack of people getting convinced by opposing arguments on JREF. Humans, even the smart, educated, freethinking ones who flock to JREF, are governed by tribal emotion more than logic… being smarter just lets people rationalize their position better.



(I, of course, except myself from the above critique - my own views are the product of rational analysis, and never rationalized pre-conceptions.)
 
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