General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Thunder]

Israel has all those things Parky.

flat out lie. Israel has no seperation of church & state.

they also are in a permanent state of emergency, allowing arrest without due process.

they have discrimination based on nationality and religion as part of their immigration policy.

 

[Cobalt]

this is CLEARLY a strawman:

Part of it could be considered as such, but it more accurately appears to be hyperbole, and I'm guessing for the sake of sarcasm, not a position he actually thinks some will take:

Now, I predict anti-Zionists will blame Israel. That goes without saying. I predict that they will say, "Aha! There's no need for the wall if it doesn't stop all bombings!"

This part turned out to be accurate:

wow, that Seperation Wall really has worked.

what good is a billion dollar security wall, if it doesn't stop suicide bombers?

and of course, "Now maybe Israel will change its policy from existing to...er... not existing." etc... etc...

This COULD be considered one, but again, it comes off more as dark humor and hyperbole. However, since I'm willing to admit being wrong, I'll again show you how easy it is to find out.
angrysoba, were you exaggerating for effect with that statement?

if you cannot acknowledge this, then you are either LIEING, or you actually have no idea what a strawman argument is.

I can acknowledge what it is and what I personally take from it. You, however, have shown no true grasp of the concept, and as I displayed earlier, you actually fall into the use of the fallacy yourself when trying to claim others use it. And it's "lying."

 

[Thunder]

I can acknowledge what it is and what I personally take from it. You, however, have shown no true grasp of the concept, and as I displayed earlier, you actually fall into the use of the fallacy yourself when trying to claim others use it. And it's "lying."

 

[mortimer]

American Liberalism, and a Liberal Democracy, are very different things.

I'd expect you to know this.

Oh I completely understand this. What I don't understand is your claim that there is no liberal democracy in the Middle East, despite the evidence that scholars disagree with you. You are free to disagree with those scholars, but some, including me, might expect that you provide some evidence to support your claim that Israel is not a liberal democracy.

 

[Thunder]

You are free to disagree with those scholars, but some, including me, might expect that you provide some evidence to support your claim that Israel is not a liberal democracy.

i already did.

 

[Skeptic]

You never speculate out of existing data?

Intersting, isn't it?

Some stupid Israeli politician says something stupid and racist which everybody else condemns him for. Extrapolation = "Israel is evil and racist".

Hamas leaders forbid teaching the holocaust because it's a "zionist lie". Extrapoliation = we wouldn't really want to do that! Who knows what they really think?

 

[Skeptic]

In the past certain posters here said that their outrage at any minor Israeli wrong compared to their excusing and ignoring of much worse Palestinian ones is because they are "holding Israel to a higher standard".

In the last 48 hours alone, we had certain posters being OUTRAGED at Israel not teaching (or not teaching enough) about the Armenian holocaust (without, of course, anybody in Israel denying it occurred), while not caring one bit about holocaust denial, and holocaust justification, in the PA; and condemning Israel for not protecting itself efficiently enough against terrorist attacks, without a whisper of condemnation about the terrorists who actually carried out the attack.

I leave the reader to judge whether this is "holding Israel to a higher standard" or rather hating Israel and therefore using a grossly unfair double standard.

 

[bigjelmapro]

The fishing permit quote is from B'tselem. The CIA link is given so that I can quote the bit about the waters of Gaza being occupied -- that's seperate to the bit of the same link which says Gaza is occupied.

Already been covered by Mycroft and I've already answered this.

Israel doesn't issue fishing permits and as of yet, you still have to provide evidence that not being able to fish a few kilometers of ones internal waters is classified as occupation.

And, yes, I do repeat links a lot. Because they are good links and support the claims I make. I'm always aware that I am anonymous bod on the internet and that what I say needs corroboration.

No they don't support your claims. Neither does posting NGO material and an advisory by the CIA website. None of this is based on international law.

No. That's rubbish. As the area marked 'no-go area' on the map I linked earlier shows.

And? What of it? Buffer zone, as the definition of it, still applies. Perhaps you could show me where buffer zones, ie Pakistan-India, India-Kashmir, North Korea-South Korea, don't have 'no go areas', have an abundance of farming going on, and don't have various agreements as to how these buffer zones are controlled.

If it's an irrelevent deflection, then it's one you brought up.

You brought up buffer zones as a hapless argument to support the occupation claim. I brought up the history behind them and previous agreements. Simple.

If you think those are NGOs, then post a list of the governments that agree with Israel.

So I take it you haven't found much evidence to support your claim, switch the burden of proof on me (which isn't evidence to begin with) and I have to pick up a paddle to row the argumentum ad populum boat for you.

You seem to have missed the point of the claim. I do not claim that Israel has to give money to Hamas. I claim, and you seem to agree, that Israel collects taxes on foreign (non-Israeli) goods which enter Gaza. Collecting taxes, and setting tax rates, is the job of a government.

No. As with Western countries, the issue with taxes is based on agreements, which exist between the PA and Israel. Israel and Hamas do not have such agreements, hence why the PA is used as an intermediary between Israel and Hamas.

A false premise, huh? Every important organisation in the world seems to agree with me: Gaza is still occupied.

As stated before, argumentum ad populum.

..
"We need to understand that when Gaza is open to the other side we lose responsibility for it. So we want to disconnect from it," [deputy defence minister, Matan Vilnai] said. "We want to stop supplying electricity to them, stop supplying them with water and medicine, so that it would come from another place."

How does this support your claim again? Mycroft touched up on this already.

But I'm sure you're going to peddle the CIA website again.

 

[Virus]

flat out lie. Israel has no seperation of church & state.

they also are in a permanent state of emergency, allowing arrest without due process.

they have discrimination based on nationality and religion as part of their immigration policy.

There is agreement amongst several intellectuals and organizations such as Freedom House that the states of the European Union, Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, Japan, Argentina, Chile, South Korea, Taiwan, the United States, India, Canada, Israel, Mexico, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand[9] are liberal democracies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy

 

[MarkCorrigan]

flat out lie. Israel has no seperation of church & state.

Really? So the UK isn't free then?

 

[boyntonstu]

Finally, no more Israel. It has been erased.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4046460,00.html

"Egypt Air, the largest airline in Egypt, has removed Israel from the map – literally. On its website, Ynet has learned, Jordan's land reaches the Mediterranean Sea.


The airline's subsidiary, Air Sinai, flies to Israel regularly, but customers seeking flights to Ben Gurion National Airport will have a hard time finding them. On the map are the names of the Mideast capitals – Amman, Beirut, and Damascus – but Israel is nowhere to be found."


I hope that the Egyptians can sleep better without having Israel as a neighbor.

 

[The Fool]

As stated before, argumentum ad populum.

come on...I notice you have all latched onto this ad populum stuff. Which of course its not.

ad populum refers to the opinion of "the people" or "the masses" not a small minority of knowledgeable and authoritative opinion. Expert opinion substantiates a position and when the overwhelming majority of expert opinion agrees with a position it strengthens that position significantly.

your use of argument ad populum dismissal would have some validity if the sited support sited was that 95% of the population of the USA agreed or disagreed. However if 95% of the total small number of authorities agree? Thats just strong support for a position...


anyway, being out on your lonesome with an opinion can be difficult I suppose, got to use whatever argument you can nail together in the face of that.

 

[The Fool]

Really? So the UK isn't free then?

Mark...are you making a case that the the UK are comparable in terms of the relationship between the church and state? What aspects do you think compare?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Mark...are you making a case that the the UK are comparable in terms of the relationship between the church and state? What aspects do you think compare?

Well, Thunder has stated that because Church and state aren't separate like they are in the US, Israel isn't free (I know it was one of three things he said, but he must think that it must be so for it to be free given how he phrased his post). This is untrue.

In the UK the church has a direct link to our governmental system. It is directly involved in the legislature.

 

[Virus]

Arabs have been wiping Israel off their maps for decades. Textbooks call the whole region "Palestine" and Israel is called "The Zionist Entity".

 

[Virus]

Yeah the Queen is head of the state religion and they give immigration preference to Commonwealth nations.

Guess the UK isn't a liberal democracy by Parky's standards.

 

[Thunder]

Israel has been wiping the West Bank off its maps for decades.

 

[Skeptic]

"Yawn. Who cares? Let's blame Israel for something".

 

[boyntonstu]

Israel has been wiping the West Bank off its maps for decades.

Link?

Is the West Bank a sovereign country?

A member of the U.N.?

Do two wrongs make a right?

 

[WildCat]

Guess the UK isn't a liberal democracy by Parky's standards.

It's tough to tailor your double-standards to single out Israel while denying you're just trying to single out Israel.