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If No Constantine, No Christianity for Past 2,000 Years?

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When Constantine converted, it would be another 200 years until Christianity really took root in Europe, and that was because of a brutal Tyrant who forced conversion at sword-point. The Eastern Orthodox churches were already established before Constantine's rules - the only thing that changed with his conversion was the persecution they suffered.

So what impact did his Conversion really have?

IANAH; so far the only thing I know about this topic is what I recall from skimming Kirsch's book. But my understanding is that because Constantine had a long rule, allowed the Church to own property, and urged the church leaders to start uniting around a common canon and theology, and favored Christians in other ways such as relying upon many of them as advisors, etc that this allowed the early church to build a strong base.

This strong base is what allowed the Church to continue to grow and convert other nations under successive regimes.

It also made a big difference that Constantine's successor, Julian, was only in power briefly and didn't have enough time to carry out his intent of reversing what Constantine had done and that Julian's successors favored the Christian Church.


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BTW, just want to say that I appreciate all the posts. It has really helped me understand that era a little better.

I was also curious to see how Kirsch's theory would fare at the JREF. As you can see from his web site (link in the OP), while he has written several books in the area of religious history he appears to be mainly a lawyer and his only academic credentials in history is a BA.

His book made sense to me, but I was very curious what you all would have to say about his theories.
 
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And would it have been of the monotheistic or polytheistic variety?

Pure polytheism doesn't seem to survive to well when faced with montheism and a sophisticated enough culture. Sure Aten didn't last but then he was very much a creation of the ruling class and thus it's not unexpected that the ruling class were able to get rid of him. Still pure polytheism doesn't work to well once you begin to think about how the world works.

And I'm breaking my own rules in my own OP by including the author's other main point of his book --but Kirsch believes that religious intolerance such as seen on the Spanish Inquisition and jihad level occurs only with monotheistic faiths, not polytheistic ones.

Well the aztecs might disagree. Jihadism if anything has more in common with nationalism than a conventional religious movement and Spanish Inquisition style practices are far from unknown when getting rid of the terminaly inconvenient.

Even taking into account human sacrifices -- many more people were killed over religious wars and inquisitions than were offered up as sacrafices. Besides, by Constantine's time, human sacrifices were no longer practiced within the Roman or Persian Empires. (At least according to the author. IANAH. )

Kirsch believes that if most of the world has remained polytheistic, most nations would have had more religious tolerance and fewer people would have died over religious issues.

Your problem is that Christianity doesn't behave in a classicaly monotheistic manner. For example one of the reasons polytheists can get on is that they can adopt each others gods. Thing is that historicaly christanity has done exactly that. There are a bunch saints who are pretty transparently the old pagan gods and archangel michael certianly appears to have started out as a Mithras proxy.
 
It's truly amazing how many religions start out this way. A person has a vision and then sets out to convince people that God has sent a message thru them. In my opinion, probably all religions big and small, start this way.

Rastafari movement and the Ashanti religion (cult of the golden stool perhaps?) may be counter examples
 
And would it have been of the monotheistic or polytheistic variety?

And I'm breaking my own rules in my own OP by including the author's other main point of his book --but Kirsch believes that religious intolerance such as seen on the Spanish Inquisition and jihad level occurs only with monotheistic faiths, not polytheistic ones.

Well, yes, if you draw artificial categories for which wars count and which don't. Equally you could say that gun wounds happen only in gunpowder based armies, therefore the world was all peaceful before gunpowder. Which we both know to be false.

The Chinese for example didn't need to call it jihad to lose a mind-boggling two thirds of their total population in the cluster#### war that was the three kingdom era. And just to make it clear: not of the army. Of the total population. Roll that around in your head. We're talking tens of millions population loss, which was a high percentage even of the total Earth population at the time.

Seems to me like nationalistic and dynastic ambitions can motivate people just as well to kill each other.

Even taking into account human sacrifices -- many more people were killed over religious wars and inquisitions than were offered up as sacrafices.

But again, I gather he is pretending that the same stuff didn't happen before too. E.g., in bringing up the inquisition as opposed to pre-christian times, the implication is that such witch-hunts and persecutions didn't happen before Christianity. Which is provably false.

As I was already saying, everyone was hunting witches long before they had even heard of the Abrahamic God. The Romans kept at it until 390 AD or so, when, ironically, it was Christianity that stopped them.

So the Christian inquisition was bad... as opposed to what? As opposed to the Romans killing witches by the thousands in Rome alone?

Basically you're telling me the equivalent of, sorta, "this rooster is a bad rooster because he doesn't lay eggs." You know, unlike the other roosters who also don't ;)

Besides, by Constantine's time, human sacrifices were no longer practiced within the Roman or Persian Empires. (At least according to the author. IANAH. )

Yes, in Rome and Persia. In the latter mostly due to Zoroastrianism (which was also practically monotheistic by then), and in the former basically because they were long past needing religion to get rid of, to borrow that expression, the terminally inconvenient.

But Rome's legal system wasn't going to stop, say, the Germans from sacrificing humans and burning witches and solving disputes by quickfire (in effect, unsanctioned private sacrificing an enemy by burning them alive together with their family), was it? It wouldn't be until the 16'th century that the old Roman law was really resurrected, and even then mostly because it offered an excuse to confiscate the peasants' communal lands.

So ingrained was the human sacrifice in the culture for, say, the Norse, that IIRC ironically the king actually celebrated the conversion to Christianity by sacrificing a few people. Do you think they were going to stop just because 10,000 km south the Romans had stopped?

Kirsch believes that if most of the world has remained polytheistic, most nations would have had more religious tolerance and fewer people would have died over religious issues.

But he's basically drawing artificial lines in the sand and pretending that the same thing doesn't count when it happens for another motivation. Plus, even taking just religious reasons, he's very likely wrong.

E.g., you do realize, I hope, that in tribal endemic warfare anywhere between one third and two thirds of all males ever born have died killed by a neighbour tribe, right? And that many of those conflicts are actually religiously motivated at their core? I.e., the kind of logic that goes, basically, "our shaman says he talked to the deer spirits to send more prey, we're not seeing more prey, our shaman says it's because the other tribe's evil magicks are keeping the deer away from us, therefore let's go murder one or two of their people to show them we're not gonna put up with their evil magick crap."

And, again, that kind of stuff keeps going for millennia, with attrition rates between one third and two thirds. I'm guessing it must add up to more people dead than the crusades ever caused.
 
I think the Constantine hypothesis is probably correct.

The view of individual rights we have in the west today is less than 400 years old. Before that, it was unthinkable that the serfs and other subjects of a kingdom would be of any religion other than that of their leader. And when the nobleman switched, so did everybody else. Henry VIII's story isn't amazing because it started the rift between Anglicans and Catholics. The amazing part is how many people followed Henry in his break from the church.


This is corroborated by the history of christianity in Japan : Christianism started to flourish as long as feudal lords converted, and their subjects with them, roughly until it was repressed by Hideyoshi and totally banned by Tokugawa Iemitsu. "Hidden christians" remained but christianism never had a chance to spread thereafter.
 
Pure polytheism doesn't seem to survive to well when faced with montheism and a sophisticated enough culture.

Sure, but how much of that can be attributed to that most polytheistic faiths came with myths populated by simpler gods more concerned about just having a good time compared to the monotheistic faiths that came with gods concerned about imparting more complicated rules and philosophies to a son or prophets?

That didn't necessarily have to be so. There's really no reason that a polytheistic faith with a more complicated theology complete with scriptures concerned about morality and philosophy couldn't have come about.

Sure Aten didn't last but then he was very much a creation of the ruling class and thus it's not unexpected that the ruling class were able to get rid of him.
Per Kirsch, it was a creation of just Amenhotep IV. IIRC, his rule was about 20 years compared to Constantine's 30, but still a respectable amount of time for a ruler to get to make his stamp.

Comparing the success of Aten religion to Christianity seems to make the case that while a strong ruler can get to do what he wants during his regime to have any kind of impact after his regime is over, it really helps to have other people on board. Christianity had grassroots popularity in the lower classes and apparently enough among whatever classes of people (military? scholars?) Constantine pulled his advisors from. While his immediate successor, Julian, didn't want to continue to support the Christians and tried to reverse the gains they made during Constantine's rule, Julian's successors did support Christianity and fortunately for Christianity, Julian had a short rule. The Aten religion had none of those other advantages going for it.

Still pure polytheism doesn't work to well once you begin to think about how the world works.
Some might say the same about monotheism. :)
But this reminds me that Kirsch believes that Constantine, who wanted to be the sole ruler of Rome instead of just 1 of 4 rulers as was the precedent, would have found a religion based on 1 vs. multiple gods more appealing.



Well the aztecs might disagree.
I don't know enough about the Aztecs to say.

Jihadism if anything has more in common with nationalism than a conventional religious movement and Spanish Inquisition style practices are far from unknown when getting rid of the terminaly inconvenient.

Paganism during the time of late antiquity seemed to be about engaging in just enough occasional token acts of worship of the government approved gods to satisfy them so that they would treat the Roman empire well; Kirsch describes it more like a civic duty. Then if anyone wanted to spend most of their time worshiping other gods or no gods at all, it seems that the Roman government just didn't care. I'm guessing that the large metropolitan areas in the Roman empire was very heterogeneous in their makeup. Europe during the Middle Ages, not so much. Most countries in the Middle East now, also not so much due to religious intolerance.


Your problem is that Christianity doesn't behave in a classicaly monotheistic manner. For example one of the reasons polytheists can get on is that they can adopt each others gods. Thing is that historicaly christanity has done exactly that. There are a bunch saints who are pretty transparently the old pagan gods and archangel michael certianly appears to have started out as a Mithras proxy.

Good point, but I think that typically occurred when Christianity was moving into a brand new area. After it was established, the Christian leaders expected complete compliance. And if they didn't get it, you had war even among different groups of Christianity that, practically speaking, did not really differ that much from each other theologically.
 
Rastafari movement and the Ashanti religion (cult of the golden stool perhaps?) may be counter examples

I wasn't able to find out anything about the origins of the Ashanti religion but it seems like the believers in the Rastafari movement believed that the Ethiopian Emperor, Haile Selassie I, (1930–1936 and 1941–1974) was the second coming of Christ.

Doesn't sound like a counter example. :confused:
 
Well, yes, if you draw artificial categories for which wars count and which don't. Equally you could say that gun wounds happen only in gunpowder based armies, therefore the world was all peaceful before gunpowder. Which we both know to be false.

The Chinese for example didn't need to call it jihad to lose a mind-boggling two thirds of their total population in the cluster#### war that was the three kingdom era. And just to make it clear: not of the army. Of the total population. Roll that around in your head. We're talking tens of millions population loss, which was a high percentage even of the total Earth population at the time.

Seems to me like nationalistic and dynastic ambitions can motivate people just as well to kill each other.

You raise a good point. And I think geni was basically saying the same thing in his earlier post. We can all probably find examples of when religion was used as an excuse to satisfy political aims. But once you use religion as an excuse to ignite people's passions and spur them into war -- it seems to be harder to then later extinguish those passions and pacify everyone compared to when the initial reason given for going to war was just politics. As an example compare current US relations with Viet Nam and Israel's relations with say Syria.





But again, I gather he is pretending that the same stuff didn't happen before too. E.g., in bringing up the inquisition as opposed to pre-christian times, the implication is that such witch-hunts and persecutions didn't happen before Christianity. Which is provably false.

As I was already saying, everyone was hunting witches long before they had even heard of the Abrahamic God. The Romans kept at it until 390 AD or so, when, ironically, it was Christianity that stopped them.

So the Christian inquisition was bad... as opposed to what? As opposed to the Romans killing witches by the thousands in Rome alone?

This is not something that I was aware of. And actually I couldn't find any information online. Even if its true, the underlying reason was probably due to how people in power wanted power and resources shared and not really for religious reasons. That's always going to ignite war.

But it seems that sometimes people went to war over purely theological reasons, like Arianism for example. That kind of theological difference of opinion would not be the cause of war in a polytheistic society.

<snip>

E.g., you do realize, I hope, that in tribal endemic warfare anywhere between one third and two thirds of all males ever born have died killed by a neighbour tribe, right? And that many of those conflicts are actually religiously motivated at their core? I.e., the kind of logic that goes, basically, "our shaman says he talked to the deer spirits to send more prey, we're not seeing more prey, our shaman says it's because the other tribe's evil magicks are keeping the deer away from us, therefore let's go murder one or two of their people to show them we're not gonna put up with their evil magick crap."

And, again, that kind of stuff keeps going for millennia, with attrition rates between one third and two thirds. I'm guessing it must add up to more people dead than the crusades ever caused.

Again not something that I was aware of. How were these numbers calculated?

I think it would be interesting to compare say 400 years in Roman late antiquity to 400 years in the Middle Ages and see which era had a lower percentage of death due to war and capital punishment imposed by the govt, churches, seers, etc. Do you think that there's enough information available that this could be calculated?
 
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People always wanted someone else's resources, or the dick at the top wanted more power and glory, or, really, whatever.

That really applies to the crusades too. Sure, religion made a fine tool to motivate the plebs to go get killed in someone else's war, but the ambitions behind it were power, glory, influence, resources, etc. (A western kingdom in the middle east bypassed Venice as a middle man in the land trade with the orient, for example.)

The first crusade basically started when the Byzantines asked for help with pushing the Seljuk Turks back from their teritory, and got a bit out of control when the Pope (another prick in a privileged position) took it as an oportunity to extend his own hegemony. There was nothing fundamentally religious about that.

Even other so-called religious conflicts often actually had nationalistic reasons. The Hussite Wars which left whole counties in Germany in smoldering ruins, were driven by anti-German sentiment and religion just made a convenient pretext. The thirty years war was largely a grab for power, and not just by the German princes involved: France, a catholic nation, actually bankrolled the protestants and Sweden to intervene on the protestant side, just to weaken Germany. Etc.

And again, bloody wars happened without it too.

The Mongols under Gengis Khan ravaged half of Asia and Europe, and spread terror by massacring and enslaving anyone who didn't surrender, to an extent that makes even all the crusades put together look like amateur work.

Then Timur Leng (a.k.a., Tamerlane) did the same all over again, except from the South, dealing a nearly fatal blow to the Ottoman Empire.

The Turks themselves had gotten there by ploughing through Persia, the Caliphate, and the Byzantine empire, just because they could. There was no religious intolerance needed to attack someone.

China, I already mentioned.

The Franks ploughed through a whole Europe and for a short while made an empire actually bigger than the Roman one. Most of that happened before Charlemagne got christened, so...

And even when you look at Roman times... while nowadays we look at an "age of migrations" and think only then they happened, they actually happened all the time. Rome just happened to be perfectly capable of stopping them before AD times. The only thing different in the "age of migrations" was that this time they were capable of migrating right through Roman defenses.

Caesar started his conquest of Gaul by answering the call for help of the Allobroges, who were an allied Gallic nation, and in danger of being ploughed through by the migrating Helvetii.

The Teutones and Cimbri ploughed through the whole Europe and initially spanked Rome, at the time already embroiled in another war, so hard that it no longer had any recruits that could afford their own equipment. That's what made the Marian reforms necessary.

And so on, and so forth. There was _always_ someone showing up at the borders and trying to move through, or at least raid the estates on the Roman side. See the Dacians for some who were actually damn good at coming over and plundering regularly, before Trajan finally spanked them.

And before that, just look at Mesopotamia, where they fought each other all the time, in spite of recognizing each other's deity.

But generally, I get the feeling that people look at ancient history through the glasses of modern day. You know, expecting people to be mostly peaceful and nice to each other, until offered a reason about on par with 9/11, or at least a crusade or jihad.

In reality, war was a constant.

E.g., in Rome, a nation that prided itself on never starting a war (ok, so they lied a little;)), the doors of the Temple Of Janus were supposed to be closed in times of peace and open in times of war. They were only closed twice during the republic, and three more times during the empire. That's how constant war was.

Not being an intollerant monotheism, didn't do much to stop that constant warfare.
 
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I wasn't able to find out anything about the origins of the Ashanti religion but it seems like the believers in the Rastafari movement believed that the Ethiopian Emperor, Haile Selassie I, (1930–1936 and 1941–1974) was the second coming of Christ.

Doesn't sound like a counter example. :confused:


So where exactly do the visions come in?
 
I just finished reading God Against the Gods: The History of the War between Monotheism and Polytheism by Jonathan Kirsch.

Kirsch theorizes that if the Roman emperor Constantine had not favored Christianity, allowed the church to own property, and strongly urged the Christian Church to resolve several disputes (e.g., Arianism and Donatism) -- Christianity may well have remained a tiny sect that faded away like many other religious sects.

I put this in the History Forum instead of Religion because I'd like to discuss this from an evidenced based point of view and perhaps even entertain some conjectures based upon what is known about psychology and sociology. No arguments based upon because “God said so” please. If despite this, the mods in their wisdom decide to move this to the Religion Forum -- I won’t protest. (I’ll be slightly unhappy though. :( :p)

Before I read this book I had assumed that the move to Christianity was grass-roots based; that it appealed to the mostly unempowered masses looking for a way of life that was less cruel. But after reading this book I found out that Roman culture was more complex than I had thought and while several of the rulers were extremely cruel, many of the schools of philosophy and pagan beliefs were not. And Kirsch does a good job showing how cruelly the early Christians treated each other and makes a good case that monotheism was the start of religious intolerance and that the roots of the Spanish Inquisition and 9/11 can be traced back to the actions of Constantine and the early leaders of the Christian Church. (This is the main point of his book, but not the one I‘d like to discuss in this thread.)

While I usually don’t believe that major turning points in history have only one or even two causes, I find Kirsch’s points persuasive. It may very well be that if Constantine had not favored the Christian Church, most of the world may have never practiced monotheism during the last two millennium.

What do you think?



I'm not sure I buy this theory. Bear in mind that by Constantine's time Christianity already had a very firm hold on Roman society. Certainly, giving it official recognition really gave it an enormous boost, but if it hadn't been Constantine, it would have been someone else. Official recognition of Christianity was really inevitable by then. It wasn't Constantine, of course, who made it the official religion of Rome.

I don't think you can really look at events in isolation like this. Individual people don't appear in a vacuum and change the course of history. They're a product of their situation. You might as well ask "What if Hitler hadn't been born?" Well, someone else would have arisen to lead the NSDAP, and some other common German name would have been tarnished for all time. It's unlikely the end result would have been dramatically different.

So-too here. Christianity was a lot more than a "tiny cult" by the 4th Century, and it had sufficient momentum that the Emperors really had no choice but to accept it. And it should be noted that the Edict of Milan was issued by Constantine I and Licinius.

As for Constantine's approval of Christianity ultimately leading to 9/11; I'd love to hear their logic for that argument.
 
I think the Constantine hypothesis is probably correct.

The view of individual rights we have in the west today is less than 400 years old. Before that, it was unthinkable that the serfs and other subjects of a kingdom would be of any religion other than that of their leader.



Actually the evidence suggests the exact opposite happened in Rome. You have to remember that the societies you've referred to were Christian, which was an exclusive religion. In such a religion the lords wouldn't tolerate their followers practising another religion.

But the Roman state religion was an inclusive religion, and people at all level of society were permitted to worship their own Gods and observe their own customs (another factor here is that the Roman empire was extremely multicultural). The only condition was that they recognised and accepted the Roman Gods as well. The reason the Jews and Christians got the harsh treatment they did was not because they had their own religion, but because they refused to acknowledge the Roman state religion.

As for the rise of Christianity in Rome... In accordance with early Christian doctrine, Christians couldn't own other Christians as slaves. As you might imagine, this made it pretty popular amongst the slaves of Rome, and the religion spread through the slave ranks like wild fire.

The problem here is that slaves in Rome could hold quite important positions. In the upper classes in particular, highly valued house slaves worked incredibly closely with the woman of the house, who normally oversaw domestic affairs while the patriarch was playing politics. Slaves were essentially in control of every aspect of domestic daily life, and that crucially involved spending a lot of time with the domina and perhaps more crucially teaching the children. As a result the religion spread from the slaves to the women and children of the upper classes, and from there, ultimately into the upper ranks of society. Constantine's mother, for example, was a Christian, and although he only officially converted at the end of his life, there is speculation that he was probably raised a Christian.

By the time the Emperor's mother is a Christian, it's too late to stop the spread. All Constantine, Licinius and Theodosius really did was officially recognise what was inevitable.
 
So where exactly do the visions come in?

Knowledge received from God can be devined thru many ways. Sometimes, the person(and occasionally even groups) can claim a vision from God; other times, it's a voice from God. Usually, it starts with a Shaman or Holyman. Other times, it's a person who becomes a Holyman because of his/her message from God; usually the result of a psychotic episode or thru the use of mind altering drugs.

I'm no expert on the details of the Rastafari religion, but I'm betting that the believers believe what they do, on the basis of some kind of spiritual experience. What was it that made them believe that Haile Selassie was the second coming of Christ? Why do they believe that Jesus was the Son of God? Perhaps because someone had a vision in the past and they believe in the truth of that vision. Also, cannabis is an important part of their religion and it has been associated with an increase in psychosis. Drugs that help people get into an expanded spiritual state, have been part of the Shaman's Way for thousands of years. Well before there was any religious books or civilization, the Shaman was our primative link to God.

I'm no expert on the Ashanti Mythology either, but I'm also betting that Shamans/Holymen had a lot to do with it.

Finally, it is my opinion, that Jesus himself had a similar spiritual experience, that sent him on his path. I believe the event probably happened a bit before or after his baptism by John the Baptist, when he heard the voice of God.
 
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Would Microsoft had gotten as big if IBM hadn't given them a push?
Given Bill Gates' drive and talent (yes, he had a lot more computing talent than most other computer people, at the time), it is likely he would have been successful, anyway. The proximate circumstances would have been different. But, the ulitmate causes would all be in place.

That's a very similar question to the one you've asked about Christianity.
I don't know enough about Constantine to know how accurate your analogy is.

Did Christianity have a leg up on the competition in any other regard?

Did Constantine favor it (at least in part) because there was some popular pressure to do so? If so, if he didn't favor it, maybe "the people" would have over-ruled him, maybe.
 
So where exactly do the visions come in?

Hmm, I bet Marcus Garvey thought the Rasterfarians were tripping. :) And for all I know, if Jesus could have foreseen what Paul and Constantine would do, maybe he would have thought they were tripping also!
 
I'm not sure I buy this theory. Bear in mind that by Constantine's time Christianity already had a very firm hold on Roman society. Certainly, giving it official recognition really gave it an enormous boost, but if it hadn't been Constantine, it would have been someone else. Official recognition of Christianity was really inevitable by then. It wasn't Constantine, of course, who made it the official religion of Rome.

I don't think you can really look at events in isolation like this. Individual people don't appear in a vacuum and change the course of history. They're a product of their situation. You might as well ask "What if Hitler hadn't been born?" Well, someone else would have arisen to lead the NSDAP, and some other common German name would have been tarnished for all time. It's unlikely the end result would have been dramatically different.



One of my teachers said that the leader is the guy following the crowd, in front. I am leaning towards believing that it all matters -- who the leaders are, what the majority opinions are of the classes both upper and lower, even in societies where the lower classes are mostly unempowered. *

So how much weight should we give to all the various components of change: leadership, grassroots support and momentum, as well as the contra-influences of groups, especially the powerful groups, that don't wish to see any changes?

Perhaps analyzing how several broad social changes got implemented in the past in various countries over widely varying timelines can help answer that. For example emancipation for everyone (not just wealthy men but all men and women), end of slavery, implementation of national health insurance, etc.

Here's a timeline of abolition of ending slavery from ancient times to 1981:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline

It looks like most of us on this planet end up in the same social direction eventually, but the amount of time it takes and the quality of the change implemented varies immensely. (E.g., slavery was abolished in the USA in 1865 but many went from slavery to sharecropping and still lived lives of destitution and very limited choices. Their lives improved, but many of their descendents born over a 100 years later would experience a truer form of freedom.)

It's not my intention to go off topic, this is just the best way that I can think of to show that all the components of change are important.


* (FWIW, while Rome was a stratified society whose lower classes were mostly unempowered -- according to Kirsch, Lucinius and Constantine's father and mother came from the peasant class. While I would guess that it didn't happen often, apparently common soldiers could fight their way up to the top in Rome as long as they were also willing to marry the boss' daughter or sister and separate from their former wives as necessary. )


So-too here. Christianity was a lot more than a "tiny cult" by the 4th Century, and it had sufficient momentum that the Emperors really had no choice but to accept it. And it should be noted that the Edict of Milan was issued by Constantine I and Licinius.

If I understand Kirsch correctly, he thinks the Christians were still a relatively small group of powerless people around 300 CE. My google-fu skillz failed me when I tried to find out what the percentage of the Christian population of the Roman Empire was then. Anyone know?



As for Constantine's approval of Christianity ultimately leading to 9/11; I'd love to hear their logic for that argument.

Arrghh. I really don't want to reread the book again. IIRC Kirsch was just saying that in a polytheistic society different nations traded gods and syncritized their characteristics along the way. While they fought over many things, they did not generally get into never ending blood feuds over their religious beliefs. Monotheistic nations on the other hand were far less likely to tolerate other people's religious beliefs. He points out acts that Constantine and the early Christian Leaders took that set precedent for the acts of Inquisition and 9/11. I honestly can't remember what they are.

However, I think other acts like destroying the Library of Alexandria that occurred after Constantine's death fits in with what Kirsch had in mind.
 
People always wanted someone else's resources, or the dick at the top wanted more power and glory, or, really, whatever.


<snip>
long list of bloody wars
<snip>

But generally, I get the feeling that people look at ancient history through the glasses of modern day. You know, expecting people to be mostly peaceful and nice to each other, until offered a reason about on par with 9/11, or at least a crusade or jihad.

In reality, war was a constant.

E.g., in Rome, a nation that prided itself on never starting a war (ok, so they lied a little;)), the doors of the Temple Of Janus were supposed to be closed in times of peace and open in times of war. They were only closed twice during the republic, and three more times during the empire. That's how constant war was.
Not being an intollerant monotheism, didn't do much to stop that constant warfare.

Even without knowing how many days of closed doors we're talking about, that is still an amazing statement to read. I'll have to think more about what you said.

You are right that I am thinking about the topic through "the glasses of modern day", that is the history I'm more familiar with after all. WWII, Viet Nam War, etc all occurred within the past 100 years and the nations involved seem to get along fine now and all are trading with each other. Nations (e.g., Middle East) that have also fought each other within the past 100 years over religious issues seem like they can go to war again at any moment.
 
Well, it also helps if you realize that the western world nowadays would have a population implosion, if it weren't for immigration. There kinda just isn't a pressure any more to send a few million to die on a whim.

We also went through WW1, which took the heck out of the glamour of war: suddenly we had a horrible war that produced millions of victims, untold devastation, etc, and all everyone had to show for it was a huge debt and a great depression. (Which actually started a lot earlier in Europe, while the USA kinda delayed it with receiving the debt payments from Europe. In places like Austria, which you wouldn't normally think as "third world", there was already starvation in the 20's.)

We also had an open enough society to, basically, start noticing reality instead of glamorous lies and BS about war. Even as late as WW1, people who were reduced to dysfunctional nervous wrecks, were just written off as, you know, cowards. But society and press were free enough this time to make a case that, no, war is a real problem for people, most of us are really not made for that crap and don't really want to be there. That basically the myth that everyone has balls of steel and is literally dying to be a hero for his country, except, you know, YOU, got pretty much laid to rest there.

We also basically gave everyone a right to vote. War is an easier proposition when either (A) only the rich guys vote to send the poor guys to die for them, or, as in ancient times and middle ages, (B) the rich (and whoever they can conscript at sword point) are fighting to keep their privileged position, and, in fact, it's the only way to keep their privileged position.

Etc.

And ultimately then came the nukes, and mutually assured destruction, and some superpowers which kept everyone and each other in check. Kinda got most of us used to not wanting a war.

Needless to say, none of those factors existed before.

Heck, even the concept of a casus belli, that you must have some valid reason to declare a war, only came into wide use and was built into a whole theory of when war is ok, in the 17'th and 18'th century. Though arguably some starting to think along those lines had more or less started in late middle ages too. But before that, attacking because you can, was reason enough.

Note though that even the renaissance and industrial era idea of cassus beli was a lot more vague and less restrictive than it sounds. Attacking some other kid because you want his lollipop, or rather the whole countries equivalent of it, was still basically still justifiable in some way or another. If nothing else, to "civilize" them, or to restrict another power's sphere of influence, or really, whatever. All the way to WW1 war was considered not just something to do when diplomacy utterly failed, but a natural and integral part of diplomacy.
 
One of my teachers said that the leader is the guy following the crowd, in front. I am leaning towards believing that it all matters -- who the leaders are, what the majority opinions are of the classes both upper and lower, even in societies where the lower classes are mostly unempowered.

I certainly agree. But I don't see Constantine's move to legitimise Christianity as some sort of masterstroke of leadership, so much as bowing to the inevitible. I think the Church certainly presented him that way, for obvious reasons. Like I say, historians aren't even sure it was a true conversion so much as acknowledging he had always been a Christian.


So how much weight should we give to all the various components of change: leadership, grassroots support and momentum, as well as the contra-influences of groups, especially the powerful groups, that don't wish to see any changes?

Ultimately there's an argument that no society changes unless it wants to change, and I think that's true. Inspired leadership can provide catalysts to change, but ultimately change happens when the cause gathers enough momentum in the form of popular support. The Roman state religion wasn't in a position to halt the spread of Christianity, so it's fate was sealed from the beginning.


Perhaps analyzing how several broad social changes got implemented in the past in various countries over widely varying timelines can help answer that. For example emancipation for everyone (not just wealthy men but all men and women), end of slavery, implementation of national health insurance, etc.

Here's a timeline of abolition of ending slavery from ancient times to 1981:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline

It looks like most of us on this planet end up in the same social direction eventually, but the amount of time it takes and the quality of the change implemented varies immensely. (E.g., slavery was abolished in the USA in 1865 but many went from slavery to sharecropping and still lived lives of destitution and very limited choices. Their lives improved, but many of their descendents born over a 100 years later would experience a truer form of freedom.)

This seems to reinforce my argument that at best you can say Constantine accelerated the inevitable rise of Christianity.


If I understand Kirsch correctly, he thinks the Christians were still a relatively small group of powerless people around 300 CE. My google-fu skillz failed me when I tried to find out what the percentage of the Christian population of the Roman Empire was then. Anyone know?

I don't know about specific percentages, but based solely on the interaction of various Roman Emperors around that time it clearly was neither small nor powerless. Christians held key positions of power, had wealth, and land.



Arrghh. I really don't want to reread the book again. IIRC Kirsch was just saying that in a polytheistic society different nations traded gods and syncritized their characteristics along the way. While they fought over many things, they did not generally get into never ending blood feuds over their religious beliefs. Monotheistic nations on the other hand were far less likely to tolerate other people's religious beliefs. He points out acts that Constantine and the early Christian Leaders took that set precedent for the acts of Inquisition and 9/11. I honestly can't remember what they are.


Christianity was hardly the world's first montheistic religion, and didn't spawn Islam either, so I am not sure how you could argue that Constantine led to 9/11.
 
<snip>

We also went through WW1, which took the heck out of the glamour of war: suddenly we had a horrible war that produced millions of victims, untold devastation, etc, and all everyone had to show for it was a huge debt and a great depression. (Which actually started a lot earlier in Europe, while the USA kinda delayed it with receiving the debt payments from Europe. In places like Austria, which you wouldn't normally think as "third world", there was already starvation in the 20's.)

We also had an open enough society to, basically, start noticing reality instead of glamorous lies and BS about war. Even as late as WW1, people who were reduced to dysfunctional nervous wrecks, were just written off as, you know, cowards. But society and press were free enough this time to make a case that, no, war is a real problem for people, most of us are really not made for that crap and don't really want to be there. That basically the myth that everyone has balls of steel and is literally dying to be a hero for his country, except, you know, YOU, got pretty much laid to rest there.

We also basically gave everyone a right to vote. War is an easier proposition when either (A) only the rich guys vote to send the poor guys to die for them, or, as in ancient times and middle ages, (B) the rich (and whoever they can conscript at sword point) are fighting to keep their privileged position, and, in fact, it's the only way to keep their privileged position.

Etc.

And ultimately then came the nukes, and mutually assured destruction, and some superpowers which kept everyone and each other in check. Kinda got most of us used to not wanting a war.

Needless to say, none of those factors existed before.

Heck, even the concept of a casus belli, that you must have some valid reason to declare a war, only came into wide use and was built into a whole theory of when war is ok, in the 17'th and 18'th century. Though arguably some starting to think along those lines had more or less started in late middle ages too. But before that, attacking because you can, was reason enough.

Note though that even the renaissance and industrial era idea of cassus beli was a lot more vague and less restrictive than it sounds. Attacking some other kid because you want his lollipop, or rather the whole countries equivalent of it, was still basically still justifiable in some way or another. If nothing else, to "civilize" them, or to restrict another power's sphere of influence, or really, whatever. All the way to WW1 war was considered not just something to do when diplomacy utterly failed, but a natural and integral part of diplomacy.

When it comes to history I'm never sure that what I think I know is accurate. I think we all know that world history "facts" differ by countries. For example, even some of the facts of the American War of Independence differ in the American and Canadian schools. Also Hollywood movies toss aside or corrupt a lot of facts if those pesky facts get in the way of delivering a product that entertains us in 120 minutes or less.

So I have occasionally wondered if in fact so many men over the past couple of millenniums were always so eager to go off to war. Regardless if they actually wanted to or were forced to by circumstances or social pressure, many men did go to war.

You had mentioned:
attacking because you can, was reason enough.
There was a big difference in standards of behavior expected for individuals vs. nations. A merchant in 18th century Western Europe couldn't just take over his neighbor's store or a 19th century farmer take over his neighbor's land simply because they had the guns and people to do so. But their countries had no barriers to taking over smaller countries if they wanted the territories and the money. A truly huge gap in what was considered ethical behavior for individuals vs. nations that lasted for centuries. /end musing

To get back on topic -- I believe you and gumboot are saying that whether most societies had become polytheistic or monotheistic over the past two millennium, it's unlikely it would have made a difference over how willing we were to kill each other.

At this point I find your posts on this point more convincing than Kirsch's book.

However, I think there's an additional reason (to the ones that you listed above) why more nations are less willing to go to war. It's because Democracies/Republics would rather trade with each other and perhaps figure how to make some other nations go into debt to them vs. going to war.

Fanatics, particularly fanatics that believe in a wonderful afterlife that will reward them for being fanatics, may be far less interested in trade and more interested in going to war or committing acts of terror. But that is a different theory than the one that says that monotheistic faiths are less tolerant than polytheistic ones.
 

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