Assistance required for telepathy proof

Adman - Not only that, but if you listened to the recording, the doctor basically said "I don't know" (not "no") in both cases. So if she could actually hear golfy's thoughts, she was lying both times.

Pixel42 - Good point. The experiment has yet to be run once, yet alone the dozens of times it would need to be run - even if the protocol was sound - to produce meaningful results, because the only time it was tried so far the protocol was not followed correctly..


By answering "I have no idea" or "I don't know" to both questions, the doctor either lied when answering both questions or told the truth when answering both questions, but the 'poly' showed a big reading for one answer but not the other... thus showing that the 'poly', as used, was totally unreliable.


This is not necessarily correct. If you asked a person on a poly “Did you write down the same word as me” and “Did you write down a different word to me” but ask them not to answer anything, it is highly probable that you would get the same results as I did with the Dr. on the GSR. The poly and GSR word on their deliberate action to not give away what word they have. As you ask the second question, her intention to suppress all stress responses or her inner knowledge that she did have a different word to me is what causes the stress. If the examiner was looking at the screen for a response, she would do her best not to show any stress on the second answer – this would cause stress and produce the result observed. This is how a poly works. It is not a “lie detector” to the spoken word.

Not just her answer. Answering “No” to or “I don’t know” is not what the poly would pick up on. Her intent to defeat the poly or feelings of guilt that she did have a different word and did not want to give that fact away is what causes the stress. Ideally of course the tested person would say “No” to both questions to stick to the protocol and would be requested to do so in all future tests.

golfy
 
Polygraphs don't do anything to reveal guilt, lying or basically anything you think they do. Any idea of testing telepathy that relies on a polygraph will not be accepted. Drop the idea and come up with something that would actually prove your claim.
 
<snip>

Not just her answer. Answering “No” to or “I don’t know” is not what the poly would pick up on. Her intent to defeat the poly or feelings of guilt that she did have a different word and did not want to give that fact away is what causes the stress.

<snip>


You don't have a polygraph.

Even if I were to be really generous and accept that you do, you certainly didn't use one to test your poor doctor and you have no business treating the results that you think you've obtained on the basis that you did.
 
Even if I were to be really generous and accept that you do, you certainly didn't use one to test your poor doctor and you have no business treating the results that you think you've obtained on the basis that you did.


I am quite happy to exchange the word poly for GSR in the experiment with the Dr. to clarify the issue as only a GSR was used. I have not yet used my poly to do any tests but will do so as soon as I can. I am waiting for the training video to arrive from the manufaturer.

You don't have a polygraph.


Also do you have any proof that I do not have a poly - if not then refrain from making unsubstantiated statements. At least my conclusion that I am telepathic is based on 15 years experience and University as well as my own tests. Your STATEMENT is based on nothing. Where is your research backing you up? If I made a statement like yours based on no research or evidence then I would be an idiot in other peoples perception.

golfy
 
Last edited:
Even if I were to be really generous and accept that you do, you certainly didn't use one to test your poor doctor and you have no business treating the results that you think you've obtained on the basis that you did.


I am quite happy to exchange the word poly for GSR.


Yes, I know you are, and that's rather the whole bloody problem. You keep saying "poly" when all you actually have at the moment is a GSR, if that.


You don't have a polygraph.


Also do you have any proof that I do not have a poly - if not then refrain from making unsubstantiated statements. At least my conclusion that I am telepathic is based on 15 years experience and University as well as my own tests. Your STATEMENT is based on nothing. Where is your research backing you up?


golfy


I'll just add 'burden of proof' to my little list here of things you don't understand.


If I made a statement like yours based on no research or evidence then I would be an idiot in other peoples perception.


umm . . .
 
I am quite happy to exchange the word poly for GSR in the experiment with the Dr. to clarify the issue as only a GSR was used and not a poly. Unfortunately I cannot edit that post from poly to GSR any more.

I have not yet used my poly to do any tests but will do so as soon as I can. I am waiting for the training video to arrive from the manufacturer.

golfy
 
Last edited:
I am quite happy to exchange the word poly for GSR in the experiment with the Dr. to clarify the issue as only a GSR was used and not a poly. Unfortunately I cannot edit that post from poly to GSR any more.

I have not yet used my poly to do any tests but will do so as soon as I can. I am waiting for the training video to arrive from the manufaturer.
golfy

Three years well spent.

What are you going to do if you actually apply for the MDC and they tell you your poly/GSR/E-meter/whatchamajigger isn't allowed?

How are you going to apply with an incomplete application?

You have no real desire to do an actual test to determine the truth do you? You want a blinking light to point at and say "There! See! A missing kidney! I really really saw it!" right?
 
I am quite happy to exchange the word poly for GSR in the experiment with the Dr. to clarify the issue as only a GSR was used and not a poly. Unfortunately I cannot edit that post from poly to GSR any more.

I have not yet used my poly to do any tests but will do so as soon as I can. I am waiting for the training video to arrive from the manufacturer.


Can you post a link to more information on the specific polygraph equipment that you are using?
 
What are you going to do if you actually apply for the MDC and they tell you your poly/GSR/E-meter/whatchamajigger isn't allowed?
I still think it might be allowed if golfy uses it as, for example, a tea leaf reader uses tea leaves - as an aid which enables him to deduce facts he could not have otherwise known, which can then be confirmed (or not). For the tea leaf reader the tea leaves are just the means by which he demonstrates his precognitive ability, for golfy the polygraph is the means by which he demonstrates his telepathic ability. The reliability (or otherwise) of the polygraph as a measuring instrument is not then an issue, any more than the reliability of tea leaves is.

Here's my suggested test protocol again:

1. Claimant is given one of two cards at random by Observer A and "sends" it telepathically to receiver who is connected to polygraph machine. Card is recorded by observer A.

2. At the same time receiver is shown both cards in random order by Observer B (out of sight of claimant) and asked if that is the one he is receiving, and answers "no" to both. The order in which the two cards were shown is recorded by Observer B.

3. Repeat, say, 20 times. So Observer A has list of 20 cards, Observer B has list of 20 pairs of cards.

4. Claimant is shown the polygraph readout on which the time at which each pair of answers was made has been marked and identifies which answer of each pair he thinks indicates the receiver was telling the truth, and which is the lie in each case. Observer B listens and strikes out either the first or second card from his list, according to which the claimant says is the lie.

5. We now have two lists which should be the same if the claimant has successfully sent the identity of each card telepathically to the receiver.

It's probably not perfect but unless I'm missing something (which is entirely possible) it should be acceptable to JREF.
 
A vital part of a test protocol such as the one I just reposted is to set the success criteria in advance, so let's look at what it should be. First let's consider what the expected hit rate would be in each possible scenario.

Scenario 1: golfy is not telepathic

In this case you would expect the hit rate to be that of chance, i.e. 50%. Note that the reliability or otherwise of polygraphs is irrelevant in this scenario

Scenario 2: golfy is telepathic and his polygraph is 100% accurate

The expected hit rate would be 100%

Scenario 3: golfy is telepathic and his polygraph is sometimes, but not always, accurate

In this case you would not expect a 100% hit rate, but still significantly better than the 50% chance hit rate

Scenario 4: golfy is telepathic and his polygraph is completely useless

The expected hit rate would be the chance hit rate, i.e. 50%

It's up to golfy to decide if he believes his polygraph is reliable enough for scenario 4 to be ruled out, as there's no point in doing the test otherwise. If he decides it is then a success criteria of somewhere between 50% and 100% would be set. Exactly where it should be set for the JREF preliminary test will depend on the number of runs, and should be calculated by someone whose maths is a good deal less rusty than mine. I understand it's usual to set it such that the probability of it being achieved by chance is at least 1000 to 1.
 
Last edited:
I still think it might be allowed if golfy uses it as, for example, a tea leaf reader uses tea leaves - as an aid which enables him to deduce facts he could not have otherwise known, which can then be confirmed (or not). For the tea leaf reader the tea leaves are just the means by which he demonstrates his precognitive ability, for golfy the polygraph is the means by which he demonstrates his telepathic ability. The reliability (or otherwise) of the polygraph as a measuring instrument is not then an issue, any more than the reliability of tea leaves is.

Here's my suggested test protocol again:

1. Claimant is given one of two cards at random by Observer A and "sends" it telepathically to receiver who is connected to polygraph machine. Card is recorded by observer A.

2. At the same time receiver is shown both cards in random order by Observer B (out of sight of claimant) and asked if that is the one he is receiving, and answers "no" to both. The order in which the two cards were shown is recorded by Observer B.

3. Repeat, say, 20 times. So Observer A has list of 20 cards, Observer B has list of 20 pairs of cards.

4. Claimant is shown the polygraph readout on which the time at which each pair of answers was made has been marked and identifies which answer of each pair he thinks indicates the receiver was telling the truth, and which is the lie in each case. Observer B listens and strikes out either the first or second card from his list, according to which the claimant says is the lie.

5. We now have two lists which should be the same if the claimant has successfully sent the identity of each card telepathically to the receiver.

It's probably not perfect but unless I'm missing something (which is entirely possible) it should be acceptable to JREF.

Unfortunately not. In golfy's universe, the Observer B will deliberately strike out the wrong word in order to foil the test.
 
Unfortunately not. In golfy's universe, the Observer B will deliberately strike out the wrong word in order to foil the test.
That did occur to me, but I'm sure safeguards can be put in place to prevent it. Videotaping everything, or sealing a copy of both lists in an envelope which golfy keeps in his pocket and can then unseal and check against the polygraph trace afterwards, for example.
 
Here's my suggested test protocol again:

1. Claimant is given one of two cards at random by Observer A and "sends" it telepathically to receiver who is connected to polygraph machine. Card is recorded by observer A.

2. At the same time receiver is shown both cards in random order by Observer B (out of sight of claimant) and asked if that is the one he is receiving, and answers "no" to both. The order in which the two cards were shown is recorded by Observer B.

3. Repeat, say, 20 times. So Observer A has list of 20 cards, Observer B has list of 20 pairs of cards.

4. Claimant is shown the polygraph readout on which the time at which each pair of answers was made has been marked and identifies which answer of each pair he thinks indicates the receiver was telling the truth, and which is the lie in each case. Observer B listens and strikes out either the first or second card from his list, according to which the claimant says is the lie.

5. We now have two lists which should be the same if the claimant has successfully sent the identity of each card telepathically to the receiver.

It's probably not perfect but unless I'm missing something (which is entirely possible) it should be acceptable to JREF.


This is a cat ship test in a subtly different way except that there is a third party operating the polygraph. Why would the tea leaf reader have someone else reading the tea leaves or why would I have someone else reading the poly?

It also misses the point of poly testing as I have stated before – the poly works on actions you have done rather than on your state of mind. It detects “Did you rob the bank” not “Did you rob the bank” when you did not but did think about it.

2. At the same time receiver is shown both cards in random order by Observer B (out of sight of claimant) and asked if that is the one he is receiving, and answers "no" to both


This tests their state of mind. They would have to perform an action for the poly to work at its best. The cat ship test works this way by each person (TX and RX) has to write down the word they have randomly chosen.

Thanks for the info Pixel42 but I fail to see the problem with my cat ship test below. I do however like some of your insight. Others just criticise from what seems like a “no understanding” point of view.

Two words are chosen (cat and ship) and written down on folded post it notes so that the words cannot be seen.
The TX (transmitter) and RX (receiver) each have a choice to pick one of the two words at random as they both have two post it notes, each with cat or ship written on the inside.
After a single random choice has been made by the TX and RX, their chosen word is written down by themselves on a piece of paper.

A GSR or poly is connected to the RX and then two questions are asked by the TX.
Q1) Did you write down the same word as I wrote down?
The RX should answer "No"
The GSR response is noted.
Q2) Did you write down a different word to the word I wrote down?
The RX should answer "No"
The GSR response is noted.
The higher GSR response indicates which word that the RX has - high reading on question Q1, they have the same word, high reading on Q2 they have the other word that was written down by the TX.
If the TX had written down "Ship" and the RX had a high reading on Q2 then the RX has "Cat".

The TX who would also interpret the GSR or poly to determine which word the RX had written down.

The test would be conducted a number of times, say 10 in this example. The result would be the TX has a list of his randomly chosen words. Next to each word would be a word that the TX calculated that the RX has. The RX would have a list of their randomly chosen words. The lists would be compared to see how may time the TX predicted word list matched the RX list and then accuracy of the test calculated.

For instance in my test with the Doctor, I would have written ship (my randomly chosen word) and cat (the word I predicted that the Doctor has chosen). The Doctor would have written down cat. In the above test this list would be ten lines long. My predicted word would then be compared to the Doctors written word.

In each test the cat and ship words should be changed so as to avoid confusion from one test to the other. i.e. second test would be tree and rock etc.

In this case you would not expect a 100% hit rate, but still significantly better than the 50% chance hit rate


So you accept that the GSR has a better than 50% hit rate and therefore my test with the Dr had some validity and your statement “Either way it's clear that golfy doesn't have any telepathic ability” was actually wrong. GSR accuracy (say for arguments sake 70%) x 1 test is 70% chance the Dr could hear me.

I have done some test with a friend today on the GSR with a heads tails test with me saying whether I had heads or tails verbally and him writing down his choice of heads or tails with me not being able to see his choice. There was £5 at stake if he could beat the GSR out of 5 attempts.

Initially the first reading was similar to the Doctor, no indication on one and full scale on the other. My prediction from looking at the GSR produce the correct result.

The second test was similar, zero reading and about 15 of the 18 LEDs, again correct prediction.

The third test was around 8 LEDs and zero reading, again correct prediction.

The fourth test was 3 LEDs and zero reading, again correct prediction.

The fifth test was zero on both questions.

This perhaps shows the inadequacy of repeating the same test again and again. Heads tails once, then cat ship, then tree rock etc may have given better results.

It does also indicate that the GSR is possibly very accurate to start with but its effectiveness falls away as the RX gets used to the testing. Overall the GSR was 80% accurate with very limited testing, so not a particularly reliable figure, but interesting.

Also I did not but will do next time, explore what happens as the RX start to beat the GSR after a number of tests if that is waht happens. Does their excitement as they start to beat the GSR then start reintroducing stress due to their will to gain the £5 after they have got used to the test, which enabled them to stay calm whilst lying. As their expectation rises as they start to beat the test and get closer to winning the £5, it may then be harder to calmly lie with no GSR indication as they get to a winning position as this adds pressure into the testing.

Also perhaps the addition of a small electric shock every time the correct prediction is made (from a toy shocker, nothing dangerous) would also keep the RX in a state of anxiety to not be cault "lying" on each answer, adding reliability to the test. The test results may fade because there is no punishment involved in the test as there would be in a poly test if you were a bank robber.

15 tests instead of 5 may have been more interesting to see what the trend does. Also this is not the same stress level as only £5 was involved as a person who is deliberately lying about hearing me such as my Doctor or others may be doing. As they are in a position of authority, the consequences of being proven to be a liar would be fare more dire than a £5 stake which may keep the effectiveness of the test at a high level question after question.

golfy
 
Last edited:
And that would be why I think we should drop the polygraph notion altogether. golfy doesn't really understand them and will not stop wittering on with his flawed notions of how they work and what they tell him if you give even the slightest suggestion that you might be able to incorporate one into a test.
 
Using his/her telepathic powers, golfy knew you would be saying it sometime in the future... 's true dat... a polygraph will prove it. :)

deleted on further reading
 
Last edited:
golfy, if you apply for the MDC what would you do if the JREF does not approve of your cat/ship test or the use of a lie detector?

It's a simple, hypothetical, "what if" question so telling me how perfect you think your protocol and blinkylight machine are again isn't an answer to it.
 
And that would be why I think we should drop the polygraph notion altogether. golfy doesn't really understand them and will not stop wittering on with his flawed notions of how they work and what they tell him if you give even the slightest suggestion that you might be able to incorporate one into a test.


Who’s we? I thought I was doing the test, not you Sledge. I have no intention of dropping the poly unless it is proven to be unreliable when I use it in a cat ship test.

Are you not the ones who are happy to now exchange GSRs for polys? Seems like hypocrisy to me and sounds like you might be worried that the poly may give better more reliable results.

Reliable predictions of what the RX has written down that the JREF cannot discredit by pointing out ways of cheating is all I have to accomplish. How I do that is immaterial as long as it is safe. A poly should therefore be acceptable.

If Sledge thinks that it will not be a reliable test because the poly is useless in this environment that how is the test going to produce meaningfull results – it won’t. That is my issue to solve untill I have reached my goal of beyond reasonable doubt and then some. If you can provide a better way Sledge then the forum would be very interested in hearing you ideas. Or perhaps you can only criticise? Which anyone can do.


golfy, if you apply for the MDC what would you do if the JREF does not approve of your cat/ship test or the use of a lie detector?

It's a simple, hypothetical, "what if" question so telling me how perfect you think your protocol and blinkylight machine are again isn't an answer to it.


I would only put forward an application once I am getting the correct results. Repeatability and accuracy is what I am aiming for. I am an electronics engineer (ex Hewlett-Packard R+D designer) so I do know how to make sure that my tests are working before I put in an application.

At the moment I have achieved better results than before but as yet they are still not total proof. All I was doing today was working out the potential accuracy of my so called “blinkylight” machine and trying to work out how to make it more reliable.

Once I am getting better and better results the inane comments will presumably be looked at by others as I seem them now, inane.

If my tests become totally reliable in the future, I may not need to put forward an application to the JREF as proof can be obtained elsewhere. If it was at that point and it would be easy enough to pass a JREF test then I see no reason why I would not put in an application.

I would only do that if I was certain that my tests were totally reliable – in that case I would have already proven that I am telepathic as validation locally would presumably be possible, not just the JREF.

golfy
 
Polygraphs do not give reliable results, golfy. Please try to understand this simple point.
 

Back
Top Bottom