Differing Models on the Origin of Higher Taxa

randman

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There seems to be a lot of confusion about what different models to explain the origin of higher taxa actually posit. This thread is not so much to argue which one is correct but to understand what the theories themselves actually are. Taxa refers to the different classifications with species (or subspecies and breeds) being the lowest taxa and genera, families, orders, kingdom, etc,....being higher taxa.

1. The dominant theory of evolution is the Modern Synthesis also commonly referred to as NeoDarwinism. I have typically abbreviated this to Darwinism and explained why, but most here seem to insist on just calling it "evolution" despite evolution being defined as a microevolutionary process involving the change in the frequency of alleles. Of course then, a mere change in the frequency of alleles is not necessarily the origin of higher taxa, and so working with that label does not address the topic at hand.

Whatever one wants to call it (I shall use ND for brevity's sake), ND posits sequential speciation however one wants to define species as the process that occurs evolving the higher taxa. One species evolves into another and then another and so forth until you have different genera, different families and so forth. However one wants to describe the process is besides the point. There is a clear process envisioned of small genetic changes adding up over time in populations to produce new species, genera, families and so forth. We can get into that in more depth later.

2. The next model, so derided by evos, is creationism or special creation. Contrary to what many evos think, creationists generally do advocate evolution as well, though perhaps not all, and many especially object to ND's emphasis on allelic mutations as the mechanism for evolution. Their idea is evolution happens but is limited within a kind. So all bears or cats or some other creatures (using animals to help bring clarity to the concept) can and did evolve into all the other bears, cats, etc,....but evolution is limited to a range, evolution within a kind, or "baramin" as some have labelled it.

This is why creationists scoff at evolutionists that talk about microevolution (not originally a creationist term as some presume) being exclusive evidence for evo theory as if creationism does not incorporate microevolution as well. Creationism is divided into young earth creationism (YEC) and old earth creationism as well as further differences in those groups. But they generally advocate a special creation act of the kinds, some advocate progressive creation acts.

Please keep in mind the point of this thread is not to initially jump into debating the validy of models but to actually understand what they say.

3. Front loading and related theories: This is generally an Intelligent Design model. ID actually encompasses creationism but includes models separate from it. Front loading accept common descent as a general principle, though not necessarily monophylogenetic, meaning there can be more than one common source. That is something often suggested but more as a suspicion. The idea is that the environmental pressures play just a small role in the pattern of life that has emerged. Instead as Broome said there is a Plan or pattern that was already embedded into organisms to direct, but just in a general sense, the path of evolution. So something like the similarities between marsupial and placental pairs is not the result of ND evolution (environmental pressures selecting the designs) but a product of internal mechanisms directing the evolution into common designs.

The basic idea is the first organisms contained a basic program so that certain common designs would emerge; that there is a direction to evolution.

Front loaders generally do not believe macroevolution is occuring any more but is a process that has largely or completely spent itself out.

There is a further division in front loading which is worth noting. Some incorporate allelic mutation more than others. Others like John Davison, and likely Goldschmidt and Grasse (who might be termed a front loader today in his advocacy of "internal mechanisms) suggest that random allelic mutation plays almost no role in the emergence of the higher taxa; that something else causes the reordering of DNA. In other words, their model is a form of "saltionism."

So creationism can actually accept speciation within a kind (though some differ), but saltationists do not accept gradual evolution of this sort. It's an important distinction to note.

Epigenetics and the idea of looking at chromosomes more as a means of speciation is based on a revival of this older theory of evolution front loaders and other saltionists advocated but evos involved with it do not consider epigenetics as exclusive of ND but an addition to it (no saltionism), somewhat outside ND but merely adding to it.

4. Saltationism without Intelligent Design....it's worth noting that we don't know if some scientists in the past that rejected Neodarwinism such as Goldschidt, Otto Schindewolf, Pierre Graase, etc,...would accept the label "Intelligent Design" today. You'd have to look at their writings and comments more extensively to see if they viewed the process as the result of design and purpose or purely random. Also, keep in mind saltionism is not full-blown Lamarckianism, nor even Lamarckian at all. Epigenetics though can be seen as somewhat Lamarckian.

5. Intelligent Design: This is really a very broad umbrella including theories accepting common descent and not, but can generally be thought of a model based on the assumption that there is Intelligence behind design; that there is purpose in the creation both of biological life and the universe itself. It's a model involved in areas besides biology such as information theory, mathematics, physics, astrophysics and cosmology. I believe theistic evolutionists should rightly be considered a form of ID but they'd object to the label.

Hope that is helpful.
 
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I'd just appreciate if you stayed off the thread if you have nothing substantively to add to it. Other threads are often bogged down over semantic debates and confusion of terminology. For example, at times it was clear people did not get the distinction between evolution defined as common descent, which men like Pierre Grasse, Davison, Behe and others accept, and evolution defined as Neodarwinian evolution, which they all reject, and the difference between something like front loading and saltationism within a ID paradigm with creationism, etc,.....Some seem to think saltationist accept gradual speciation via allelic mutation and that all creationists reject speciation within a kind, which is exactly the opposite.

I thought it worthwhile to start a thread not to argue any particular model as correct but to discuss what they do and do not say; what they are.
 
At least the more he says the more the flaws in his arguments are exposed and the more educational these discussions become for those seeking to actually learn something. While he diligently focuses on his red herrings, he's providing novel results, very similar to the way order emerges from chaos given enough feedback loops. Very similar to a mindless system of trial and error like natural selection. :) It's quite the house of cards.
 
All 5 of those are wrong. The first is the most wrong because you're making up words and altering definitions so you can argue against something that no one actually claims.

The rest are just delusional.

Also, where do I request a merger? This is just the same things you're talking about in another thread.
 
To fix the errors in piont #1, please reference "On the Origin of Phyla", but D.r James W. Valentine. It's not the most up-to-date work on the subject, but it's at least what a respected researcher into the field actually says. Here's a hint: If it's less than about 500 pages the description is FAR too short, and therefore necessarily wrong.
 
All 5 of those are wrong. The first is the most wrong because you're making up words and altering definitions so you can argue against something that no one actually claims.

The rest are just delusional.

Also, where do I request a merger? This is just the same things you're talking about in another thread.

Press the little triangle with the exclamation point in the lower left hand bar, this is the report feature, you can suggest a merger. Mention the threads you feel should be merged.
 
Taxonomy is a human filing system.

It is important to remember that it is an attempt to map reality.
It is not reality itself.

"Higher taxa", like "lower taxa" are labels which are convenient for biological research.
They originate and evolve only in libraries and laboratories.
 
(Nevermind my first sentence, answered my own question)

For that matter, why don't you just call it natural selection, you know, like he did? The use of the term "Darwinism" is (IMO) designed to set up the strawman that biologists "worship" Darwin, which will allow them to discredit natural selection when they can show Darwin was a jerk as we have recently seen. That is not how science works, it doesn't matter who came up with a model, it matters if the model works.

All that aside, can anyone make an argument (not a god argument, a scientific argument) that species are "real" entities and not simply man made models to help us understand complex processes? If there is a "real" entity that NS acts on, it is likely the gene and not the species at any rate.
 
Taxonomy is a human filing system.

It is important to remember that it is an attempt to map reality.
It is not reality itself.

"Higher taxa", like "lower taxa" are labels which are convenient for biological research.
They originate and evolve only in libraries and laboratories.

Lol...we were posting at the same time. I agree completely.
 
Other threads are often bogged down over semantic debates and confusion of terminology.

Other threads are already being bogged down with you iterating and reiterating your misunderstandings and dishonest debating of the Theory Of Evolution. You're not more likely to convince people that you know what you're talking about by trying to flood the board with exactly the same arguments in several different threads.

Here's a tactic to consider - if you're shown to be wrong about something in a thread, rather than ignoring the evidence against you and retreating to another thread to see if you get any takers there, why not consider re-assessing your conclusions in light of the new evidence? Just a thought.
 
All that aside, can anyone make an argument (not a god argument, a scientific argument) that species are "real" entities and not simply man made models to help us understand complex processes? If there is a "real" entity that NS acts on, it is likely the gene and not the species at any rate.

The closest we have to a definition is that two animals are different species if they physically can not, or deliberately choose not to, reproduce and give viable offspring. It removes usually infertile hybrids like mules or ligers .

But even that's not perfect. There are different plant species that do produce viable offspring together.

Even "species" is a human invention.
 
All 5 of those are wrong. The first is the most wrong because you're making up words and altering definitions so you can argue against something that no one actually claims.

The rest are just delusional.

Also, where do I request a merger? This is just the same things you're talking about in another thread.

Ok, so explain how they are wrong. Here is your chance. Explain how the origin of higher taxa evolve if not through sequential speciation (btw, there is this famous book called "The Origin of Species" that came out awhile back). The theory has advanced since then but still involve sequential speciation.
 
Taxonomy is a human filing system.

It is important to remember that it is an attempt to map reality.
It is not reality itself.

"Higher taxa", like "lower taxa" are labels which are convenient for biological research.
They originate and evolve only in libraries and laboratories.

That's right. So you can label biota any way you want but it doesn't change because of it.

Regardless, ND posits that all of life evolved from a common ancestor via sequential evolving of populations into new and different populations resulting in the organisms classified as higher taxa.

Right?

Or you disagree? If so, are you saying ND does not explain the origin of these groupings of higher taxa?
 
If there is a "real" entity that NS acts on, it is likely the gene and not the species at any rate.

That's not what evolutionary theory teaches. Evo theory teaches the population evolves.

I suppose you could construe adaptive mutation, which is a form of Lamarckianism where the mutations respond directly to the environment; the organism mutates the needed mutation not through a random process as the environment directly selecting and directing mutations, but even then, is that really natural selection?

Either way, that's not ND.
 
To fix the errors in piont #1, please reference "On the Origin of Phyla", but D.r James W. Valentine. It's not the most up-to-date work on the subject, but it's at least what a respected researcher into the field actually says. Here's a hint: If it's less than about 500 pages the description is FAR too short, and therefore necessarily wrong.

So you cannot explain in your own words any error with point #1?

What part do you disagree with?

Does he say the phyla did not have a common ancestor and evolve through gradual genetic change producing new phyla, or not?
 
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Ok, so explain how they are wrong. Here is your chance. Explain how the origin of higher taxa evolve if not through sequential speciation (btw, there is this famous book called "The Origin of Species" that came out awhile back). The theory has advanced since then but still involve sequential speciation.

An organism reproduces, its children have DNA that shares traits of both parents, and a few random changes. If the child organism is negatively affected, it dies. If it benefits, it reproduces and spreads those traits to its own children.

Over time, the combinations of changes from multiple lineages from a single parent cause these descendants to be unable to reproduce, making them different species.

That's how the whole thing works, but I can't really understand your question. Are you arguing that this is wrong? The most fundamental basics of evolutionary theory?

Or are you trying to say that over billions of years and countless reproductive cycles or countless organisms, that these differences would never add up into significantly different organisms?
 
That's right. So you can label biota any way you want but it doesn't change because of it.

Regardless, ND posits that all of life evolved from a common ancestor via sequential evolving of populations into new and different populations resulting in the organisms classified as higher taxa.

Right?

Or you disagree? If so, are you saying ND does not explain the origin of these groupings of higher taxa?

He's saying neither - you haven't understood his point at all.

To summarise: the map is not the territory.
 
Darat, do you agree or disagree that ND posits all of life evolves from a common ancestor producting different populations or organisms with all the groupings of higher taxa, not the label but those actual organisms, being reproductively isolated from one another.

There's no hidden gotcha here guys. Either ND is a theory for the origin of life which includes groupings reproductively isolated or not.

Why is this a point of contention with you?

Do you honestly believe ND is not a theory explaining common descent?
 

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