Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kaosium]

Kaosium,

I am in broad agreement but would like to mention one other example of character assassination of 19-20 year olds. The outstanding book on the Duke lacrosse case is "Until Proven Innocent." The case was prosecution by character assassination, and Collin Finnerty, because of a prior scuffle outside a bar, became the very personification of arrogant, violent, homophobic, racist jock-animals. Was it accurate, or was it a “fun-house mirror” version of reality? I would say the latter if the portrait that emerges in Until Proven Innocent is true. Additionally, we have reporter Sharon Swanson's view:
"I understand that good people can do awful things. I also know that awful things can happen to good people. And within those poles lie the facts in the Duke lacrosse case. Standing at his mother’s kitchen sink, I saw a vulnerable, almost fragile young man. I saw the son that his mother knows. After talking to Collin for five minutes, I wanted to leave the room — to go somewhere he couldn’t see me — so that I could sob, or scream, or throw something breakable. If these charges turn out to be false, as he and the other defendants claim, it’s not possible to undo the damage that has been done to this seemingly gentle young man."

The aspect of trial by character assassination is one of two factors that initially drew my attention to the present one (the other being the weakness of the DNA evidence). The British tabloid press has been inexcusable, creating a character named "Foxy Knoxy" that has no more to do with the real Amanda Knox than columnist Marc Fisher's wolf "in blazer and khakis" has to do with Collin Finnerty. And Mr. Fisher is not an unreasonable man, to judge by some of his other columns. But he got swept up in the narrative of that case, just as some journalists got swept up in the narrative of this one. Yet in both cases the narratives were unrelated to the facts. I find myself surprised to be saying so, but I think that Amanda Knox may have received even worse treatment than the Duke lacrosse players did in 2006, certainly no better.

Yes, that would be another example. A difference in my mind being is one could imagine that the Duke Lacrosse players were these vicious stereotypes, 'Foxy Knoxy' was a truly mythic creation. Sojourning through Google looking for hits under that name I found numerous sites that actually believed (at least initially) that she was this crazed madwoman of insatiable appetites who'd literally kill for pizza. Ironically reading PMF was quite a step up from that characterization when I got to it.

Thus one was smeared with a stereotype, the other had an entirely new lifeform created in her 'name.'

 

[Justinian2]

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/footprints-04.html

There were eight shoe prints, set in Meredith's blood, found in Meredith's room during the investigation. Six of the shoe prints were agreed to belong to Rudy Guede. Two of the shoe prints found in Meredith's room were disputed. The prosecution's expert believed that two of the prints belonged to Amanda and Raffaele. Raffaele Sollecito's forensics expert Francesco Vinci showed in great detail, in court, that those two prints actually belonged to Rudy Guede.

I could have presented a stronger argument that the wealth of evidence left by Guede was shared.

But you get the idea. If Guede hadn't left so much evidence, I wonder if the prosecution would been so willing to missassign the ownership of the evidence.

 

[Kaosium]

Kaosium

Why didn't you provide a link - it was one of your better arguments on this thread. Here is my summation - anybody interested can work back over the previous 2 pages to see if I got it right.

OT have you ever been approached to work as a consultant on multi jurisdictional cases ?

PS I see the bathroom Hokey Cokey [sans showers] is back - a welcome return I think we can all agree.

LOL! No, Platonov, that's not what I meant. I was referring to a discussion that took place shortly before February 2nd. So I guess it was more than a month ago now, but not three months like the one you dug up! Still keeping track of my 'greatest hits' eh?

As for the one you linked with your 'summation,' would you like to hear a confession? Look at the date and times of those posts and adjust to US Central Standard Time. You'll find they are between 12:00 PM and 3:00 PM on a Sunday, which happens to be a 'religious' holiday here: Packer Day! The Green Bay Packers were playing the Atlanta Falcons, then the best team in the league, and it was a close-fought game that ended in a Packer's loss. (we beat them in the playoffs though!) Thus the whole time I was posting during that discussion I was really trying to watch the Packers and lost track of who I was talking to and what I was talking about. I thought I cleared it up at the end though?

 

[moije2]

judges immune to media?

Like I said I could understand concern if this was happening in jury’s like in the US or UK were the jury is left to deliberate a case (although they can ask for legal rulings), they are pretty much left to decide the outcome, whereas in Italy they have the professional legal guidance of 2 judges throughout the deliberation process who also form part of the jury, this is often overlooked. In addition, Italian jurisprudence has the built in benefit of automatic appeals then the Supreme Court has the final ruling ensuring the previous trial and appeal have not contravened any criminal penal codes.
Suspicion is one thing, proof is another?

I realize now that you have previously expressed these beliefs. Sorry to make you repeat yourself!

Let me just say however that your faith in guidance by professional judges is not the same as mine. I would certainly include them - along with darn near everyone connected with the case - as subject to and influence in some fashion by the extraordinary media attention given this case. I would make no exception for the judge.

Regarding the safety net of Italy's automatic appeals, I would suggest that that is an awfully small consolation to those languishing in prison.

..

 

[Nightowl2548]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In this case the cops didn't even bother investigating any other lines of thought, they immediately focused in on this kid and terrorized a dream statement out of her a few days later. No one with any street smarts would pursue Amanda Knox as the most likely perpetrator upon finding the body. The cops must have had their minds colored by a recent viewing of "Basic Instinct" to think an American girl was the likely perpetrator. Slitting someone's throat is about as hard core a murder as it gets, what you'd expect from hardened terrorists in Iraq like Zarqawi's beheading videos, not someone with the life history of Amanda. The few instances I've encountered violence from women, all older, uneducated alcoholic types, the violence consisted of them throwing things around and very uncoordinated open handed, swinging a fully extended arm hit. Susan Atkins is the only case of a girl doing something as bizarre as what Amanda is accused of, and in her case she was a street savy stripper, turned cult member, constantly under the influence of LSD, and manipulated by a charismatic Alpha Male. There is no evidence Amanda decended into anything that bizarre in her 8 weeks in Perugia, rather she sounded more like a travel blogger who was following in Bourdain's footsteps in her relating of how she was in love with her new life and Italian culture. This case makes no sense, my gut feeling has always been she and Rafaelle were completely innocent, now after reading up on the evidence (lack of) I am convinced beyond all doubt they didn't do it.

 

[Kaosium]

Well you mentioned Duke Lacrosse team case which took place in America, my question is do you have an example of an Italian equivalent.

Sabrina Misseri

Apparently she's going to trial, though I haven't heard much about it since. Fine posted a link a month or two back that had 90% or so of poll recipients saying she had some part in her cousin's death. The paparazzi has apparently tried and convicted her, just like with Amanda Knox.

I'd say the odds are the uncle is a creepy killer and he broke under interrogation before the clueless cops who for some reason were trying to bust another girl of a violent murder under laughable pretenses yet again.

 

[Nightowl2548]

Yes, that would be another example. A difference in my mind being is one could imagine that the Duke Lacrosse players were these vicious stereotypes, 'Foxy Knoxy' was a truly mythic creation. Sojourning through Google looking for hits under that name I found numerous sites that actually believed (at least initially) that she was this crazed madwoman of insatiable appetites who'd literally kill for pizza. Ironically reading PMF was quite a step up from that characterization when I got to it.

Thus one was smeared with a stereotype, the other had an entirely new lifeform created in her 'name.'

The creation in the minds of the prosecutor and public of a character more in the vein of Catherine Tremalle, Sharon Stone's character in Basic Instinct mixed with Kim Kardashian and the Girls Gone Wild cast. The only problem is as someone more familiar than the Prosecutor with various American subcultures, Amanda does not fit the image of the typical American slut who goes around with $300 highlighted hairdos, $90 nails, $400 hand bags, Versace dresses, etc. Amanda and her Northwest toned down hippie student girl looks far too "low maintenance" to be this "foxyknoxy slut" the Euro tabloid rags made her out to be. Seven men for a girl aged twenty is also fairly conservative by today's standards, My roommate in college was briefly dating a spoiled daughter of a rich Delaware politician and she was only 19 yet bragged about having slept with 47 men. Nor do I see any evidence Knox had any interest in S&M, bondage, group sex etc, it only seems she was after the dream of hooking up with an Italian boy for a normal relationship. She also doesn't have any of that Goth, Punk appearance typical of girls who are interested in those sex practices. Her demonetization draws some parallels to that of Sherman McCoy in Bonfire of the Vanities. The public in that work of fiction wanted to tear down a rich privileged New Yorker--"The Great White Defendant" in Knox's case they wanted The Great American Defendant and created her.

 

[Kaosium]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In this case the cops didn't even bother investigating any other lines of thought, they immediately focused in on this kid and terrorized a dream statement out of her a few days later. No one with any street smarts would pursue Amanda Knox as the most likely perpetrator upon finding the body. The cops must have had their minds colored by a recent viewing of "Basic Instinct" to think an American girl was the likely perpetrator.

Slitting someone's throat is about as hard core a murder as it gets, what you'd expect from hardened terrorists in Iraq like Zarqawi's beheading videos, not someone with the life history of Amanda. The few instances I've encountered violence from women, all older, uneducated alcoholic types, the violence consisted of them throwing things around and very uncoordinated open handed, swinging a fully extended arm hit. Susan Atkins is the only case of a girl doing something as bizarre as what Amanda is accused of, and in her case she was a street savy stripper, turned cult member, constantly under the influence of LSD, and manipulated by a charismatic Alpha Male.

There is no evidence Amanda decended into anything that bizarre in her 8 weeks in Perugia, rather she sounded more like a travel blogger who was following in Bourdain's footsteps in her relating of how she was in love with her new life and Italian culture. This case makes no sense, my gut feeling has always been she and Rafaelle were completely innocent, now after reading up on the evidence (lack of) I am convinced beyond all doubt they didn't do it.

Hi Nightowl!

I agree that the charge itself is bizarre enough it requires an initial 'suspension of disbelief' to even contemplate, and that perhaps some have forgotten just what an extraordinary event this would be if true. Not only is Amanda an especially unlikely perpetrator in such a happening, she would have had to decided spontaneously to conspire with two people she barely knew (no matter how 'close' they got she only knew Raffaele six days) to murder and rape another girl she knew and no one could ever find a cross word from her about. Everyone talks sometimes about complaints Meredith might have had about Amanda, but it seems to be forgotten that Amanda apparently didn't dislike anyone! At least that anyone could find, it was a notable thing missing from the 'Foxy Knoxy' campaign. She just said "ewww" sometimes.

 

[bri1]

The creation in the minds of the prosecutor and public of a character more in the vein of Catherine Tremalle, Sharon Stone's character in Basic Instinct mixed with Kim Kardashian and the Girls Gone Wild cast. The only problem is as someone more familiar than the Prosecutor with various American subcultures, Amanda does not fit the image of the typical American slut who goes around with $300 highlighted hairdos, $90 nails, $400 hand bags, Versace dresses, etc. Amanda and her Northwest toned down hippie student girl looks far too "low maintenance" to be this "foxyknoxy slut" the Euro tabloid rags made her out to be. Seven men for a girl aged twenty is also fairly conservative by today's standards, My roommate in college was briefly dating a spoiled daughter of a rich Delaware politician and she was only 19 yet bragged about having slept with 47 men. Nor do I see any evidence Knox had any interest in S&M, bondage, group sex etc, it only seems she was after the dream of hooking up with an Italian boy for a normal relationship. She also doesn't have any of that Goth, Punk appearance typical of girls who are interested in those sex practices. Her demonetization draws some parallels to that of Sherman McCoy in Bonfire of the Vanities. The public in that work of fiction wanted to tear down a rich privileged New Yorker--"The Great White Defendant" in Knox's case they wanted The Great American Defendant and created her.

Nightowl, even if she was this 'type' it wouldn't mean she was capable of murder! I've know a lot of 'alternative' girls, piercings, tattoos, into S&M and other alternative sexual practices- they do not have anything to do with non-consensual sex / violence. I find the implication that if Amanda was one of these girls then we would be correct in thinking she's capable of murder, very offensive, ignorant and narrow-minded. It's this whole argument that is wrong- sex , piercings, clothing, reading material, etc etc has no correlation with this level of violence. Violence does, and AK and RS have never displayed any violence or aggression.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Sabrina Misseri

Apparently she's going to trial, though I haven't heard much about it since. Fine posted a link a month or two back that had 90% or so of poll recipients saying she had some part in her cousin's death. The paparazzi has apparently tried and convicted her, just like with Amanda Knox.

I'd say the odds are the uncle is a creepy killer and he broke under interrogation before the clueless cops who for some reason were trying to bust another girl of a violent murder under laughable pretenses yet again.

Is this the case were the Mother of the missing girl was on a live TV show when she was told her daughter had been found dead?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Just nailing down the goalposts here... if you are provided with such an example, will this cause you to believe that the Knox/Sollecito case is another such example?

Or are you are asking for evidence which will not in fact change your opinion in any way if it is provided?

Why is convincing me of any importance to what is going on in the appeal?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Why is convincing me of any importance to what is going on in the appeal?

I didn't say it was, nor do I think it is.

Maybe I'm just becoming a trifle jaded with posters who ask for information with absolutely no interest in that information, nor any intention of changing their beliefs in light of the information they request.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

same case

Is this the case were the Mother of the missing girl was on a live TV show when she was told her daughter had been found dead?

Yes. I wrote about it in a thread in the member's only section in relation to the present case, a message called "Misseri loves company." Here is what I wrote:

Sabrina Misseri is an average-looking young Italian woman being held for the murder of her cousin, Sarah Scazzi. Her case has received more attention than it would otherwise have, because of some connections/parallels to the Knox/Sollecito case. I suspect that Ms. Misseri is grateful for the scrutiny. MOO.

 

[Justinian2]

I'm trying to figure out what led so many people think that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty and to be so adamant in their stance.

1.) Some, such as Mignini, want to make an example of Amanda and Raffaele to scare the others away from drugs and free sex and celebrations of Halloween.
See my post at: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6976366#post6976366
2.) Some, such as the media, stand to profit from the conviction.
3.) Some, such as Mignini, stand to be hurt by an overturn of the conviction. See http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6999196.ece
4.) some, such as Mr. J. Kercher and his lawyer, stand to profit from the complaint against Rafaelle.
5.) Guede left a plethora of evidence that could be borrowed from in order to maximize the number of convictions. See my post at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6984660#post6984660
6.) Some people feel compelled to debase people who use the scientific method.
7.) Some people have a bias against non-Perugians, college students, Americans, women, attractive people and those that think a black person is guilty.
8.) Some have descended from a society and culture that was immersed in inquisitions, the vendetta, a persecution of the unpopular and a belief that Rome is the center of the universe.
9.) Some people can't ever admit they are wrong.
10.) Some people are not capable of empathy and have an extremely 'me first' attitude.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I didn't say it was, nor do I think it is.

Maybe I'm just becoming a trifle jaded with posters who ask for information with absolutely no interest in that information, nor any intention of changing their beliefs in light of the information they request.

Maybe you should take your own advice then and not bother engaging such posters, it’s you’re choice either way.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

perhaps commenters should provide as many citations as they ask for

Maybe you should take your own advice then and not bother engaging such posters, it’s you’re choice either way.

CoulsdonUK,

I have noticed the same problems as Kevin_Lowe: citations asked for and then apparently unread, shifting goalposts, that sort of thing. Some commenters here work hard to gather and analyze information, and that should be noted. MOO.

post script
And worst of all, no nominations for the language award, despite some decent efforts. Who can forget the description of the bra clasp as being "passed around like a joint at a Pink Floyd concert." I hope I got that right; it might have come from Kaosium.

 

[RoseMontague]

Yes. I wrote about it in a thread in the member's only section in relation to the present case, a message called "Misseri loves company." Here is what I wrote:

Sabrina Misseri is an average-looking young Italian woman being held for the murder of her cousin, Sarah Scazzi. Her case has received more attention than it would otherwise have, because of some connections/parallels to the Knox/Sollecito case. I suspect that Ms. Misseri is grateful for the scrutiny. MOO.

There are many similarities, cell towers putting people where they were not, diaries leaked to the press, a supposed disagreement that wasn't, police coercing a false accusation (this time there is a record of this), police trying to make the evidence fit their initial theory, and a press gone wild in it's desire for another female killing a female story involving sex, journalists getting sued and thrown in jail, prosecutors trying to block evidence being released, it just goes on and on. It's drama, that seems to me what both the cops and the public want, to be entertained. I just don't get it.

 

[Justinian2]

CoulsdonUK,

I have noticed the same problems as Kevin_Lowe: citations asked for and then apparently unread, shifting goalposts, that sort of thing. Some commenters here work hard to gather and analyze information, and that should be noted.

I'm really impressed with the commenters that take the time and effort to gather and analyze information.

I also note that most of the criticism and most of the questions come from posters that rarely take the time to cite references.

I recognize also the some comments with uncited references come from educational or life experiences that are shared by many, but not all.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

I have noticed the same problems as Kevin_Lowe: citations asked for and then apparently unread, shifting goalposts, that sort of thing. Some commenters here work hard to gather and analyze information, and that should be noted. MOO.

post script
And worst of all, no nominations for the language award, despite some decent efforts. Who can forget the description of the bra clasp as being "passed around like a joint at a Pink Floyd concert." I hope I got that right; it might have come from Kaosium.

Well sometimes from my own point if view I have reached the same conclusion; for example on Sunday I posted an extract from John Kercher's article which created a virutal storm of responses and I conclude that it wasn't so such goalpost shifting as a completely different game not requiring goalpost.

As ever, people one only see things from their point of view.

 

[RoseMontague]

CoulsdonUK,

I have noticed the same problems as Kevin_Lowe: citations asked for and then apparently unread, shifting goalposts, that sort of thing. Some commenters here work hard to gather and analyze information, and that should be noted.

I agree. From my standpoint I looked hard for a cite to show that Meredith and Amanda attended the chocolate festival together, finally found it and was ignored by the posters asking for it, found a cite showing that Rinaldi only used the footprints from the three suspects as a reference and was also ignored, and even more recently a third cite on Raffaele's inheritance (I also found a fourth, btw).

It is frustrating.