Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[CoulsdonUK]

I wonder how one would compile such 'evidence?' How many jurors would actually admit upfront they were swayed by the media coverage?

But yet this assertion is still out there presented as a fact.

Perhaps one way of determining whether that could have been a factor would be to see just what proponents of her guilt don't want to talk about. As long as I've posted on this subject there's been one thing they run from shrieking: evidence adduced at trial.

None of them want to discuss that at all!

Sorry but I have concluded rehashing the trial is a pointless endeavour given that the appeal is in progress and that is the current context, seems sensible to me what would be the point arguing about the knife if it is thrown out, what would be the point of debating the bra clasp if it were to be confirmed the appeal should be the focus IMO.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

What planet are you on? The footprint has been PROVEN to match Sollecitos foot within 1%. It absolutely does not match Guedes.

I think you have been misinformed. The print roughly matches Sollecito's foot, and it also matches Guede's rather better. It certainly does not match Sollecito's foot within 1%, unless you get very creative indeed with your measurements.

Guedes clad footprints led straight from the murder room out of the door -- which confirms what he said.

I think you have been misinformed. Guede said he went into the bathroom to get towels to help Meredith, took the towels into her room, and then left. Guede's own story is that he went into the bathroom.

An explanation that fits all the evidence is that Guede got blood on his pants while murdering Meredith, walked to the bathroom, removed his shoes and washed himself leaving a bloody footprint on the bathmat in the process, put his shoes back on, walked back to the bedroom to steal Meredith's stuff, got blood on the soles of his shoes, and tracked it out as he left.

Footprints of Knox, again confirmed within dimensional measurements with tolerance of 1% were found in two directions in the corridor outside the murder room again -- SET IN BLOOD.

I think you have been misinformed.

The footprints claimed to be from Knox were not in blood as far as anyone knows. They tested negative for blood. They were also never shown to belong to Knox, as opposed to belonging to another female housemate or vistor.

There were also random luminol reactions in Raffaele's house that have never been linked to any crime at all. Luminol reacts with all sorts of things other than blood. What it was in this case we'll never know. We don't have any basis to conclude that it was blood though, nor any basis to conclude the prints had anything to do with the murder.

I'll put this bluntly: The problem with guilter echo chambers like PMF is that these lies get taken up and repeated as fact until everyone believes them, and people who hang out there as a result get totally out of touch with reality very quickly. This has happened to you. Fortunately you've now got access to a neutral site where both sides can put their case - this one - so you can learn what the facts of the case actually are.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

After the sentence in the first trial Amanda still has 5 chance (plus one) to get out of jail: Process of Appeal, Supreme Court, European Court of Human Rights, review of the trial (only if, after the final conviction, there will be new evidence/witnesses) , presidential pardon. To these five options should be added: to be freed by a U.S. court after her possible transfer to the United States."

Gosh 5 chances, not sure about ECHR it’s a Human Right’s court not a criminal court, although they could rule on aspects involving human rights. Do you know whether Italy extradites those convicted of murder?

 

[moije2]

media impact on jury

I am trying to understand why some people seem so concerned with public opinion especially public opinion in the UK after all it cannot have any impact in Italy let alone on the appeal, for example do you think translated Italian news has any impact in America’s view of the case? I could understand these, shall I say concerns, if the jury was based on US or UK jury’s with no direct legal guidance whilst deliberating but the appeal jury will comprise of 2 judges one if which is the appeal judge, unless there is that almost Daily Mail’esc distrust of anything foreign.

Perhaps we haven't heard reports of jurors or judges admitting publicly that they were influenced by either local or international media, however photos of the throngs of people packing the plaza in front of the court on various occasions leads me to suspect that the trial was indeed a big deal. Based on that alone, I would conclude that the jurors <must> have felt <something>. And just as certainly, that media attention reflected the public interest and opinions.

Wouldn't you conclude the same? I can't imagine it was helpful to the defendants. This intense public interest was something the jurors as well as functionnaires of the court were certainly not immune to.

I have always marveled over the fact that media attention and its impact can be argued. Again, media attention does not exist isolated from public opinion. Perugia is a small town of approx 160,000 if I recall correctly. That is a relatively small town, where professional circles are small, and people are neighbors and have children in school together etc. I seem to recall that Nadeau commented on the commingling at lunch of jurors, journalists, and various court participants during the trial.

If ever there was a case for change of venue, this would be it.

I will listen to arguments that the situation is different now during the appeal, than it was then.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Perhaps we haven't heard reports of jurors or judges admitting publicly that they were influenced by either local or international media, however photos of the throngs of people packing the plaza in front of the court on various occasions leads me to suspect that the trial was indeed a big deal. Based on that alone, I would conclude that the jurors <must> have felt <something>. And just as certainly, that media attention reflected the public interest and opinions.

Wouldn't you conclude the same? I can't imagine it was helpful to the defendants. This intense public interest was something the jurors as well as functionnaires of the court were certainly not immune to.

I have always marveled over the fact that media attention and its impact can be argued. Again, media attention does not exist isolated from public opinion. Perugia is a small town of approx 160,000 if I recall correctly. That is a relatively small town, where professional circles are small, and people are neighbors and have children in school together etc. I seem to recall that Nadeau commented on the commingling at lunch of jurors, journalists, and various court participants during the trial.

If ever there was a case for change of venue, this would be it.

I will listen to arguments that the situation is different now during the appeal, than it was then.

Like I said I could understand concern if this was happening in jury’s like in the US or UK were the jury is left to deliberate a case (although they can ask for legal rulings), they are pretty much left to decide the outcome, whereas in Italy they have the professional legal guidance of 2 judges throughout the deliberation process who also form part of the jury, this is often overlooked. In addition, Italian jurisprudence has the built in benefit of automatic appeals then the Supreme Court has the final ruling ensuring the previous trial and appeal have not contravened any criminal penal codes.
Suspicion is one thing, proof is another?

 

[Kaosium]

But yet this assertion is still out there presented as a fact.

If it wasn't the evidence, then what was it?

Sorry but I have concluded rehashing the trial is a pointless endeavour given that the appeal is in progress and that is the current context, seems sensible to me what would be the point arguing about the knife if it is thrown out, what would be the point of debating the bra clasp if it were to be confirmed the appeal should be the focus IMO.

That wasn't aimed at you (OK--mebbe a little bit! ) but at virtually every pro-guilt poster I've encountered on this board, from the moment I registered. I've asked the following question so many times I can't remember: 'What do you consider evidence of Raffaele and Amanda being involved in any way in this murder?' That's the evolved form of the question, as I've tried to leave open debate on scenarios outside the Massei Report.

It's not just here it's everywhere this case is discussed that I've found. The only time they want to talk 'evidence' is with people who know nothing about the case, and to whom Harry Rag's laundry list looks damning. Once someone who can refute that nonsense shows up they run to the hills and/or talk about anything but the evidence.

Actually I've been trying for months now to start a debate on what will be the case against Raffaele and Amanda in the event the bra-clasp and 'murder knife' are thrown into the Tiber. I think that's a likely eventuality, thus I would imagine someone in the guilt camp might have thought up something, but so far I've asked to no avail. How about you?

 

[Kaosium]

Gosh 5 chances, not sure about ECHR it’s a Human Right’s court not a criminal court, although they could rule on aspects involving human rights.

Like 'The Right to a Fair Trial'--one of Italy's favorite entries judging by recent research into it!

If you go back about a month you'll see a post from me to Alt which details the terms under which cases can be brought before the ECHR.

Do you know whether Italy extradites those convicted of murder?

He's talking about something else, that part gets complicated.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

sentences appealed and not appealed

Possibly because the Kercher family’s counsel would have explained that Guede sentence was first reduced to match Raffaele and Amanda’s sentence then because he opted for a “fast track” trial his sentence was automatically reduced by 1/3rd, hence what I regard as a low sentence of 16 years, probably much less with good behaviour.

I am pretty sure that that family followed their counsel advice regarding the civil complaint which incidentally is against anyone that is actually convicted of Meredith’s murder.

CoulsdonUK,

The prosecution is appealing Sollecito's and Knox's sentence reduction, trying to change them to longer periods. The prosecution could have appealed Guede's reduction to the SC but did not.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Foxes and Wolves redux

In part it's due to the fact that the Daily Mail undertook a smear campaign unlike anything I have ever seen directed at someone not a politician or celebrity, merely a twenty year-old girl who'd not even been charged with a crime. Someone more patient than I went and counted 100 uses of the moniker
'Foxy Knoxy' by the Daily Mail between the arrest and her trial. Had the press been paying attention to something more important than when and where she'd bought underthings, perhaps this wouldn't have gone so far. Perhaps they might have been investigating the numerous lies, misstatements and outright incompetence displayed by police in Perugia in this case. Instead 'the newspapers went along for the ride.'

Kaosium,

I am in broad agreement but would like to mention one other example of character assassination of 19-20 year olds. The outstanding book on the Duke lacrosse case is "Until Proven Innocent." The case was prosecution by character assassination, and Collin Finnerty, because of a prior scuffle outside a bar, became the very personification of arrogant, violent, homophobic, racist jock-animals. Was it accurate, or was it a “fun-house mirror” version of reality? I would say the latter if the portrait that emerges in Until Proven Innocent is true. Additionally, we have reporter Sharon Swanson's view:
"I understand that good people can do awful things. I also know that awful things can happen to good people. And within those poles lie the facts in the Duke lacrosse case. Standing at his mother’s kitchen sink, I saw a vulnerable, almost fragile young man. I saw the son that his mother knows. After talking to Collin for five minutes, I wanted to leave the room — to go somewhere he couldn’t see me — so that I could sob, or scream, or throw something breakable. If these charges turn out to be false, as he and the other defendants claim, it’s not possible to undo the damage that has been done to this seemingly gentle young man."

The aspect of trial by character assassination is one of two factors that initially drew my attention to the present one (the other being the weakness of the DNA evidence). The British tabloid press has been inexcusable, creating a character named "Foxy Knoxy" that has no more to do with the real Amanda Knox than columnist Marc Fisher's wolf "in blazer and khakis" has to do with Collin Finnerty. And Mr. Fisher is not an unreasonable man, to judge by some of his other columns. But he got swept up in the narrative of that case, just as some journalists got swept up in the narrative of this one. Yet in both cases the narratives were unrelated to the facts. I find myself surprised to be saying so, but I think that Amanda Knox may have received even worse treatment than the Duke lacrosse players did in 2006, certainly no better.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

If it wasn't the evidence, then what was it?

Isn’t the definition of assertion “a statement without support or fact?” A claim for example?

Whereas a fact is defined “something known to exist or happen.” Aeroplanes are a fact?

Actually I've been trying for months now to start a debate on what will be the case against Raffaele and Amanda in the event the bra-clasp and 'murder knife' are thrown into the Tiber. I think that's a likely eventuality, thus I would imagine someone in the guilt camp might have thought up something, but so far I've asked to no avail. How about you?

You tease. I will exchanges views of the findings of the independent experts.

 

[christianahannah]

CoulsdonUK,

The prosecution is appealing Sollecito's and Knox's sentence reduction, trying to change them to longer periods. The prosecution could have appealed Guede's reduction to the SC but did not.

I am not so sure that the information you have posted is correct, I am also not sure that it is incorrect. I have seen it written both ways - that the prosecution could not appeal Guede's sentence due to his fast track trial and that the prosecution could have appealed Guede's sentence despite his having a fast track trial.

I have tried to find substantiation for either in the Codice di procedura penale. I have failed so far but haven't given it a thorough look. Here are links to both the Italian and Google English versions. Maybe someone will be more successful than I.

Law speak is not a language I am well studied in and I find it difficult to follow.

http://www.leggeonline.info/procedurapenale/

http://translate.google.com/transla...=http://www.leggeonline.info/procedurapenale/

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Kaosium,

I am in broad agreement but would like to mention one other example of character assassination of 19-20 year olds. The outstanding book on the Duke lacrosse case is "Until Proven Innocent." The case was prosecution by character assassination, and Collin Finnerty, because of a prior scuffle outside a bar, became the very personification of arrogant, violent, homophobic, racist jock-animals. Was it accurate, or was it a “fun-house mirror” version of reality? I would say the latter if the portrait that emerges in Until Proven Innocent is true. Additionally, we have reporter Sharon Swanson's view:
"I understand that good people can do awful things. I also know that awful things can happen to good people. And within those poles lie the facts in the Duke lacrosse case. Standing at his mother’s kitchen sink, I saw a vulnerable, almost fragile young man. I saw the son that his mother knows. After talking to Collin for five minutes, I wanted to leave the room — to go somewhere he couldn’t see me — so that I could sob, or scream, or throw something breakable. If these charges turn out to be false, as he and the other defendants claim, it’s not possible to undo the damage that has been done to this seemingly gentle young man."

The aspect of trial by character assassination is one of two factors that initially drew my attention to the present one (the other being the weakness of the DNA evidence). The British tabloid press has been inexcusable, creating a character named "Foxy Knoxy" that has no more to do with the real Amanda Knox than columnist Marc Fisher's wolf "in blazer and khakis" has to do with Collin Finnerty. And Mr. Fisher is not an unreasonable man, to judge by some of his other columns. But he got swept up in the narrative of that case, just as some journalists got swept up in the narrative of this one. Yet in both cases the narratives were unrelated to the facts. I find myself surprised to be saying so, but I think that Amanda Knox may have received even worse treatment than the Duke lacrosse players did in 2006, certainly no better.

Halides1

Do you have an example that has taken place in Italy?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

The prosecution is appealing Sollecito's and Knox's sentence reduction, trying to change them to longer periods. The prosecution could have appealed Guede's reduction to the SC but did not.

Halides1

I don't think so. Guede opted for a "fast track" trial this I believe produces an automatic 1/3rd reduction in a sentence. Raffaele and Amanda having opted for a full trial are subjected to a different set of criminal penal codes. PM cannot make deals.

 

[platonov]

multi jurisdictional Hokey - Cokey

Like 'The Right to a Fair Trial'--one of Italy's favorite entries judging by recent research into it!

If you go back about a month you'll see a post from me to Alt which details the terms under which cases can be brought before the ECHR.



He's talking about something else, that part gets complicated.

Kaosium

Why didn't you provide a link - it was one of your better arguments on this thread. Here is my summation - anybody interested can work back over the previous 2 pages to see if I got it right.

OT have you ever been approached to work as a consultant on multi jurisdictional cases ?

PS I see the bathroom Hokey Cokey [sans showers] is back - a welcome return I think we can all agree.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

two reductions, not one

Halides1

I don't think so. Guede opted for a "fast track" trial this I believe produces an automatic 1/3rd reduction in a sentence. Raffaele and Amanda having opted for a full trial are subjected to a different set of criminal penal codes. PM cannot make deals.

CoulsdonUK and christianahannah,

The 1/3rd fast track reduction is one thing. However, Guede also had his sentence reduced initially from 30 to 24 years. The fast track reduction took it to 16 years. My comments were about the initial 6-year reduction, which was done at the appeal stage, and I still think that this could have been appealed to the SC. My understanding is based on what Frank Sfarzo wrote publicly and also an email exchange I had with him. If I misunderstood his email, I take responsibility. MOO.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

which case

Halides1

Do you have an example that has taken place in Italy?

Do you mean in this case, or in another case?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK and christianahannah,

The 1/3rd fast track reduction is one thing. However, Guede also had his sentence reduced initially from 30 to 24 years. The fast track reduction took it to 16 years. My comments were about the initial 6-year reduction, which was done at the appeal stage, and I still think that this could have been appealed to the SC. My understanding is based on what Frank Sfarzo wrote publicly and also an email exchange I had with him. If I misunderstood his email, I take responsibility. MOO.

I could be wrong but the 6 year reduction was to bring Guede in line with Raffaele and Amanda's sentence, I am explaining not justifying.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Do you mean in this case, or in another case?

Well you mentioned Duke Lacrosse team case which took place in America, my question is do you have an example of an Italian equivalent.

 

[Justinian2]

Guede left such a wealth of evidence that the prosecution didn’t know what to do with it. So they decided to share some of their wealth so that they could convict more people. More convictions is good.

Guede left a shoe print in or near the bedroom. Assign that piece of evidence to Raffaele because there is no evidence against Raffaele

Guede left a bare foot print in the bedroom. Assign that piece of evidence also to Raffaele because there is no evidence against Raffaele

Guede left a knife wounds from a small knife in Meredith’s neck. That evidence is needed to convict Guede so let that evidence remain in the Guede’s column.

Guede left a slashing wound to Meredith’s neck. Claim the slash was done with Amanda and Raffaele’s kitchen knife.

Guede left the evidence of a break-in. Use that evidence against Amanda and Raffaele. Claim they staged the break-in.

Guede left many witnesses that could place him in the vicinity of the murder room. Amanda saw Guede. Suggest that this implied a conspiracy. That way Amanda and could be convicted. Since Raffaele is Amanda’s boyfriend, that could incriminate him as well.

If Guede hadn’t left such a wealth of evidence, all of it would have been used to convict Guede. The more convictions a prosecutor has, the better a prosecutor he is, right?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Well you mentioned Duke Lacrosse team case which took place in America, my question is do you have an example of an Italian equivalent.

Just nailing down the goalposts here... if you are provided with such an example, will this cause you to believe that the Knox/Sollecito case is another such example?

Or are you are asking for evidence which will not in fact change your opinion in any way if it is provided?