My argument against materialism

[kenkoskinen]

More Denials!

No.

Anything. Any arbitrary object. Positive charge at one end, negative at the other, bring the negative ends together. What is the direction of the net force?

Of course not. It is universally accepted by physicists. And chemists and material scientists and engineers, and, basically, anyone who has had a decent introduction to physics.

As I've noted several times, your position was proven false - not just false but completely impossible - by Isaac Newton over 300 years ago. Time to catch up.

Oh yeah! Why isn't it time for you to finally post a specific reference to your imaginary physics ... that you claim is universally accepted? How many times do I have to ask? Also if this is the greatest jam, why don't you write a concise post describing your so-called thinking? I call a phony theory and you're continuing to dodge! Keep hiding, but your posts are on record. Newton's laws do NOT mean everything should have collapsed into a black hole, even given EM factors. Where do you people get this crazy stuff, and of course it is universally accepted by physicist?

 

[PixyMisa]

Oh yeah! Why isn't it time for you to finally post a specific reference to your imaginary physics ... that you claim is universally accepted?

The references are everywhere, Ken. You're just unable to see them for some reason.

Try this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb%27s_Law

How many times do I have to ask?

If you don't read the references, I guess that will be infinity.

Also if this is the greatest jam, why don't you write a concise post describing your so-called thinking?

It's not "the greatest jam". It's a simple fact understood by every physicist, chemist, and engineer on the face of the Earth.

I call a phony theory and you're continuing to dodge! Keep hiding, but your posts are on record. Newton's laws do NOT mean everything should have collapsed into a black hole, even given EM factors.

Based on your arguments, Newton's laws would tell us exactly that. That's why we know your arguments are wrong.

Where do you people get this crazy stuff, and of course it is universally accepted by physicist?

Ken, take two objects, negatively charged at one end and positively charged at the other. The net charge on each one is zero. Not hypothetical particles, any arbitrary object.

If we push the two negatively charged ends together, what is the resulting force (again, considering only electromagnetism)?

1. Attraction
2. Repulsion
3. Zero

 

[Mister Agenda]

The bottom line is if we ever find two objects that are electrical dipoles and bring them together in any fashion EM theory requires they act in principle like known dipole magnets. I hope this answers your speculative scenario

The 'scenario' can be answered with 1, 2, or 3. That you can't answer such a simple question directly speaks volumes about you. Obfuscation of this caliber requires that you must know you are wrong to engage in it. I'm done letting you waste my time.

 

[kenkoskinen]

You Are Being Deceived

Promise that you'll read the references?

Really Ken, the problem isn't that this is obscure physics, it's that it's so basic that most sources gloss over it. We've got gravity. But gravity doesn't simply crush all mass into singularities. There must be a force responsible for this. If you (and you alone.. completely and absolutely alone) don't think so, I hope it's for a better reason than simply 'standing by convictions'.

This thread is starting to make me sad.

Probably Not ... the value of gravity isn't infinite everywhere, just waiting to crunch all masses into singularities. Even if nothing resists the effect of gravity on particles, their end result depends on the mass/energy/density in a locality.

Yes, there are anti-factors to the motion of particles. But these aren't forces per sec. Particles outgoing from our Sun's core are accelerated by nuclear fusion processes. Most are collectively arrested by gravity and our Sun maintains its balance. The result still primarily depends on gravity's ability, based on the local mass/energy/density, to arrest the outgoing particles.

In fact a singularity has never been observed, it is only predicted by General Relativity but quantum or other factors could well prevent them. EM does not cancel the force of gravity. If fact only gravity interacts with the other known forces i.e. they all gravitate. It's not the other way around. You are being fooled. I'm not saying nothing resists gravity's affect on particles, it's just the power of the force of gravity depends only on the mass/energy/density in a locality. What happens to particles in a gravitational field depends on it, other interacting force fields and particle affecting factors based on quantum principles e.g. Pauli's Exclusion
Principle!

I've not yet had time to read your references. However, I'll keep an open mind while I suspect they will be more nonspecific topics. IBut I suspect they are jmoe

 

[kenkoskinen]

You Are Being Deceived

Promise that you'll read the references?

Really Ken, the problem isn't that this is obscure physics, it's that it's so basic that most sources gloss over it. We've got gravity. But gravity doesn't simply crush all mass into singularities. There must be a force responsible for this. If you (and you alone.. completely and absolutely alone) don't think so, I hope it's for a better reason than simply 'standing by convictions'.

This thread is starting to make me sad.

Probably Not ... the value of gravity isn't infinite everywhere, just waiting to crunch all masses into singularities. Even if nothing resists the effect of gravity on particles, their end result depends on the mass/energy/density in a locality.

Yes, there are anti-factors to the motion of particles. But these aren't forces per sec. Particles outgoing from our Sun's core are accelerated by nuclear fusion processes. Most are collectively arrested by gravity and our Sun maintains its balance. The result still primarily depends on gravity's ability, based on the local mass/energy/density, to arrest the outgoing particles.

In fact a singularity has never been observed, it is only predicted by General Relativity but quantum or other factors could well prevent them. EM does not cancel the force of gravity. If fact only gravity interacts with the other known forces i.e. they all gravitate. It's not the other way around. You are being fooled. I'm not saying nothing resists gravity's affect on particles, it's just the power of the force of gravity depends only on the mass/energy/density in a locality. What happens to particles in a gravitational field depends on it, other interacting force fields and particle affecting factors based on quantum principles e.g. Pauli's Exclusion
Principle!

I've not yet had time to read your references. However, I'll keep an open mind while I suspect they will be more nonspecific topics. If this is so universally accepted it should be all over the physics literature and the internet. It is NOT!

 

[dafydd]

Probably Not ... the value of gravity isn't infinite everywhere, just waiting to crunch all masses into singularities. Even if nothing resists the effect of gravity on particles, their end result depends on the mass/energy/density in a locality.

Yes, there are anti-factors to the motion of particles. But these aren't forces per sec. Particles outgoing from our Sun's core are accelerated by nuclear fusion processes. Most are collectively arrested by gravity and our Sun maintains its balance. The result still primarily depends on gravity's ability, based on the local mass/energy/density, to arrest the outgoing particles.

In fact a singularity has never been observed, it is only predicted by General Relativity but quantum or other factors could well prevent them. EM does not cancel the force of gravity. If fact only gravity interacts with the other known forces i.e. they all gravitate. It's not the other way around. You are being fooled. I'm not saying nothing resists gravity's affect on particles, it's just the power of the force of gravity depends only on the mass/energy/density in a locality. What happens to particles in a gravitational field depends on it, other interacting force fields and particle affecting factors based on quantum principles e.g. Pauli's Exclusion
Principle!

I've not yet had time to read your references. However, I'll keep an open mind while I suspect they will be more nonspecific topics. If this is so universally accepted it should be all over the physics literature and the internet. It is NOT!

It is.

 

[kenkoskinen]

Write the New Article. It oesn't exist!

The references are everywhere, Ken. You're just unable to see them for some reason.

Try this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb%27s_Law

If you don't read the references, I guess that will be infinity.

It's not "the greatest jam". It's a simple fact understood by every physicist, chemist, and engineer on the face of the Earth.


Based on your arguments, Newton's laws would tell us exactly that. That's why we know your arguments are wrong.

Ken, take two objects, negatively charged at one end and positively charged at the other. The net charge on each one is zero. Not hypothetical particles, any arbitrary object.

If we push the two negatively charged ends together, what is the resulting force (again, considering only electromagnetism)?

1. Attraction
2. Repulsion
3. Zero

Pixy, Quit playing question games. Tells us clearly what you think, write a concise article explaining your thinking. I've done it several times. You've repeatedly dodged my questions. Its time for Pixy to post something concise. What is this thing? It's NOT clearly published anywhere! Fix it, not by asking questions but by telling it like it is. Show some backbone and quit your games!

 

[dafydd]

Probably Not ... the value of gravity isn't infinite everywhere, just waiting to crunch all masses into singularities. Even if nothing resists the effect of gravity on particles, their end result depends on the mass/energy/density in a locality.

Yes, there are anti-factors to the motion of particles. But these aren't forces per sec. Particles outgoing from our Sun's core are accelerated by nuclear fusion processes. Most are collectively arrested by gravity and our Sun maintains its balance. The result still primarily depends on gravity's ability, based on the local mass/energy/density, to arrest the outgoing particles.

In fact a singularity has never been observed, it is only predicted by General Relativity but quantum or other factors could well prevent them. EM does not cancel the force of gravity. If fact only gravity interacts with the other known forces i.e. they all gravitate. It's not the other way around. You are being fooled. I'm not saying nothing resists gravity's affect on particles, it's just the power of the force of gravity depends only on the mass/energy/density in a locality. What happens to particles in a gravitational field depends on it, other interacting force fields and particle affecting factors based on quantum principles e.g. Pauli's Exclusion
Principle!

I've not yet had time to read your references. However, I'll keep an open mind while I suspect they will be more nonspecific topics. If this is so universally accepted it should be all over the physics literature and the internet. It is NOT!

You know all the right words,now try putting them in the right order.

 

[PixyMisa]

Probably Not ... the value of gravity isn't infinite everywhere, just waiting to crunch all masses into singularities.

It doesn't need to be infinite, Ken. To produce a black hole, all it needs to be is unopposed.

Even if nothing resists the effect of gravity on particles, their end result depends on the mass/energy/density in a locality.

Wrong. Completely, utterly, irredeemably wrong.

Yes, there are anti-factors to the motion of particles. But these aren't forces per sec. Particles outgoing from our Sun's core are accelerated by nuclear fusion processes.

F=ma. Anything that causes acceleration is a force.

 

[dafydd]

Pixy, Quit playing question games. Tells us clearly what you think, write a concise article explaining your thinking. I've done it several times. You've repeatedly dodged my questions. Its time for Pixy to post something concise. What is this thing? It's NOT clearly published anywhere! Fix it, not by asking questions but by telling it like it is. Show some backbone and quit your games!

It's not Pixie's thinking,it is mainstream physics. Why you do not know this is a puzzle. Buy a book on basic physics.

 

[dafydd]

It doesn't need to be infinite, Ken. To produce a black hole, all it needs to be is unopposed.


Wrong. Completely, utterly, irredeemably wrong.


F=ma. Anything that causes acceleration is a force.

If Ken did five minutes research on the net he would know that.

 

[dafydd]

Promise that you'll read the references?

Really Ken, the problem isn't that this is obscure physics, it's that it's so basic that most sources gloss over it. We've got gravity. But gravity doesn't simply crush all mass into singularities. There must be a force responsible for this. If you (and you alone.. completely and absolutely alone) don't think so, I hope it's for a better reason than simply 'standing by convictions'.

This thread is starting to make me sad.

It is sad,isn't it? Ken couldn't be more wrong if he tried. Elaborate troll? I'm beginning to smell a rat.

 

[PixyMisa]

Pixy, Quit playing question games.

They're not games. They would tell you exactly why you are wrong if you would just stop dodging and answer them.

Tells us clearly what you think, write a concise article explaining your thinking.

It doesn't take an article, it takes one short sentence.

The electromagnetic force is what counterbalances gravity and prevents the Earth from collapsing into a black hole.

Every physicist in the world understands this.

I've done it several times.

You've posted nonsense.

You've repeatedly dodged my questions.

No. I answered your questions. You just don't like the answers. Not my problem.

Its time for Pixy to post something concise. What is this thing? It's NOT clearly published anywhere!

It's published everywhere, Ken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb's_Law

Fix it, not by asking questions but by telling it like it is. Show some backbone and quit your games!

I have not been playing games at any point. If you simply answer my questions, you will understand this, and understand why everything you say is wrong.

 

[carlitos]

Maybe this will help Ken. It's under 10 minutes, so probably easier to finish than the referenced articles.

 

[Probably Not]

Probably Not ... the value of gravity isn't infinite everywhere, just waiting to crunch all masses into singularities. Even if nothing resists the effect of gravity on particles, their end result depends on the mass/energy/density in a locality.

The force of gravity is proportional to the inverse square of the distance between massive objects. This means that as an object becomes more compact, the force of gravity pulling it together increases, and increases quickly. This would result in a runaway collapse very quickly if there were no force pushing back. Unless gravity somehow 'knows' where to stop?

Yes, there are anti-factors to the motion of particles. But these aren't forces per sec.

So Newton's first law should instead be something along the lines of "...unless acted upon by a force, or something that isn't a force"?

Particles outgoing from our Sun's core are accelerated by nuclear fusion processes. Most are collectively arrested by gravity and our Sun maintains its balance. The result still primarily depends on gravity's ability, based on the local mass/energy/density, to arrest the outgoing particles.

For the purposes of this discussion, lets stick with solid, rocky planets. We don't need to get into fusion and radiation pressure and whatnot. This really is much more simple than that.

In fact a singularity has never been observed, it is only predicted by General Relativity but quantum or other factors could well prevent them. EM does not cancel the force of gravity.

I've missed the last few pages, so please forgive if I'm re-stating the obvious, but gravity would super crunch things inward without counter forces against it, primarily the repulsive force of EM. Of course EM doesn't repulse gravity, it repulses other EM fields of like charges so it takes an extraordinary mass to generate enough gravity to overcome that repulsion. Black holes have enough mass in a small enough space to do that, Jupiter doesn't.

This objection was answered very well a whole bunch of pages ago. You're arguing against something nobody believes.

If fact only gravity interacts with the other known forces i.e. they all gravitate. It's not the other way around. You are being fooled. I'm not saying nothing resists gravity's affect on particles, it's just the power of the force of gravity depends only on the mass/energy/density in a locality. What happens to particles in a gravitational field depends on it, other interacting force fields and particle affecting factors based on quantum principles e.g. Pauli's Exclusion
Principle!

You're arguing against a very well observed, precisely quantified phenomenon, and your argument, as near as I can see, is something along the lines of "it's wrong because I know better". But you haven't provided a reason for your objection, and you certainly haven't given an alternative model. But I'll ask again: how much mass would be required to create a black hole and how would you calculate that number?

I've not yet had time to read your references. However, I'll keep an open mind while I suspect they will be more nonspecific topics. If this is so universally accepted it should be all over the physics literature and the internet. It is NOT!

Each source listed provides as least one direct statement that electromagnetic forces are responsible for the solidity of solid objects. The first even explicitly goes into the exact situation we've been talking about:

"We can say lots of other things about the electromagnetic force. For example, it's what holds the electrons near the nucleus in an atom. It's what holds atoms together into molecules or crystals. It holds molecules together into cells, and holds cells together into people or plants or pasta. It keeps two solid objects, such as you and the chair you're sitting on, from passing through each other, and so on."

You may find articles that don't specifically go into these properties of electromagnetism, but any very general discussion will. And you certainly won't find anything even remotely mainstream that denies it.

 

[dafydd]

The electromagnetic force is what counterbalances gravity and prevents the Earth from collapsing into a black hole.

There you are Ken,write it down on your site so you don't forget it.

 

[Dancing David]

I studied my physics in our universe. I don't think that your hero, Sol Invictus, needs you to speak for him. Why do you? He can come back on line. I hope he does ... I've some unanswered questions about what he's posted!

So take them to SMT, he will post there once a day usually, he does not frequent R&P very often.

 

[dafydd]

Ken. You are disputing centuries of observation and experiment. If you are right,then every physicist in the world is wrong,and if you are right then when did nobody notice this glaring anomaly before now? Will you think about condsidering the tiny,tiny possibility that you could be wrong? There's no shame in being wrong. I've been wrong a lot in my life. For example I used to think that Handel's Largo was a brand of lager.

 

[Dancing David]

Oh yeah! Why isn't it time for you to finally post a specific reference to your imaginary physics ... that you claim is universally accepted? How many times do I have to ask? Also if this is the greatest jam, why don't you write a concise post describing your so-called thinking? I call a phony theory and you're continuing to dodge! Keep hiding, but your posts are on record. Newton's laws do NOT mean everything should have collapsed into a black hole, even given EM factors. Where do you people get this crazy stuff, and of course it is universally accepted by physicist?

1.Gee Ken Koskinen, are there are electrons in the outer shells of atoms? Yes or no?
2.When two atoms come close to each other, will the electrons in the outer shells exert a repulsive force? Yes or no?
3.Have you heard of Coulomb's law^WP? Yes or no?
4.As two molecules or atoms approach each other will the electrons in the outer shells be subject to Coulomb's law? Yes or no?

 

[Probably Not]

Ken. You are disputing centuries of observation and experiment. If you are right,then every physicist in the world is wrong,and if you are right then when did nobody notice this glaring anomaly before now? Will you think about condsidering the tiny,tiny possibility that you could be wrong? There's no shame in being wrong. I've been wrong a lot in my life. For example I used to think that Handel's Largo was a brand of lager.

I'm not even sure what it is that he'd be right about. Electromagnetism doesn't play a role in keeping solids together and impermeable? That gravity knows when it needs to stop pulling in a planet somehow? An object in motion will tend to stay in motion unless it sort of feels like stopping? And General Relativity! Quantum!!

Ken, I really do want to understand where you're coming from. Help me out here.