Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kaosium]

What planet are you on? The footprint has been PROVEN to match Sollecitos foot within 1%. It absolutely does not match Guedes. Guedes clad footprints led straight from the murder room out of the door -- which confirms what he said. Footprints of Knox, again confirmed within dimensional measurements with tolerance of 1% were found in two directions in the corridor outside the murder room again -- SET IN BLOOD.

I think you have been the victim of misinformation. First off, why don't you take a look at the footprints in question. The first is a comparison of the bathmat print to those of Rudy and Raffaele:

As you can see, making the claim that it fits one print and not the other is a dubious enterprise. That it was decided in court that it was 'compatible' with Raffaele's is only relevant in the sense that term basically means 'possible' in Italian legal parlance. It is also 'possible' it is yours or mine, and as I recall the 'expert' that designated it Raffaele's wasn't even given Rudy's footprint as a potential match.

As for the 'footprints of Knox' why don't you take a look at them, too? How could anyone possibly claim that those splotches could be definitively matched with anyone? I think some of those look more like my avatar than they do footprints! There's no reason to think there were comparison prints taken from any of the other girls living in the cottage, they could be theirs as well.

They also weren't 'set in blood.' Those prints tested negative with the TMB test for blood, as well as negative for Meredith's DNA, and they didn't even bother with a confirmatory blood test. They are just curiosities revealed with luminol, there's nothing to suggest they had anything to do with the murder. Over 250 items found in households can produce a luminol 'hit,' that's why it's necessary to do another presumptive test to verify, and then a confirmatory test to confirm.

 

[Amazer]

I have a nasy feeling that ECHR are all ready on the case.
so if you want to see a fast track case this will be it.
the prosecutor went in to court with nothing but came out with 25 and 26 years sentence what for?, simply nothing.
The ECHR do not like nothing cases.
So who wins no one

Evidence? Or just wishful thinking?

 

[Kaosium]

Evidence? Or just wishful thinking?

It could be the ECHR has a designated 'Italian wing' to deal with all the cases coming from that quarter.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

colonelhall,

He chose to believe the prosecution's evidence, not the defense's evidence. That's his choice, but it is not the only choice open. To describe Ms. Knox as a media darling, after being vilified by the British tabloid press and others, is myopic*. Please give examples of what you mean by creepy internet fans.
*I agree that she appears to generate both favorable and unfavorable feelings in Italy, from what I recall of an article I read some time ago. However, the negative press was more significant in terms of the trial. MOO.

Halides1

I am curious how would you describe coverage of Amanda in America? Also would you say “tabloid” media accurately describes a country’s view on a given event?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I have a nasy feeling that ECHR are all ready on the case.
so if you want to see a fast track case this will be it.
the prosecutor went in to court with nothing but came out with 25 and 26 years sentence what for?, simply nothing.
The ECHR do not like nothing cases.
So who wins no one

Assuming they lost both appeals, it would be a pretty close run thing between being released early on good behaviour verses ECHR hearing the case let alone ruling on the case.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

quick summary of media in US

Halides1

I am curious how would you describe coverage of Amanda in America? Also would you say “tabloid” media accurately describes a country’s view on a given event?

CoulsdonUK,

Some of the commentary in mainstream media outlets and the blogosphere broke down along conservative vs. liberal lines. Ann Coulter and Wendy Murphy both thought that the case was strong and (Coulter at least) thought that the coverage in America was too favorable. Neither article got the facts of the case completely correct. Liestoppers, an influential Duke lacrosse discussion board, at first leaned against Knox and Sollecito, but they seem to be reconsidering.

Perhaps something of a surprise is that one of the most strongly anti-Knox/Sollecito reporters has been Andrea Vogt, who has ties to both Seattle and Italy, IIUC. Newsweek, because of Barbie Nadeau, has also leaned against Knox. I did not detect a strongly pro- or anti-Knox bias in an article I read in Time magazine some time ago.

I would not say that the tabloids' view is equivalent to a country's view. However, some of the British broadsheets have at times been anti-Knox. "Amanda Knox snared by her lust and her lies" sounds like a tabloid headline but was not.

 

[Draca]

What planet are you on? The footprint has been PROVEN to match Sollecitos foot within 1%. It absolutely does not match Guedes. Guedes clad footprints led straight from the murder room out of the door -- which confirms what he said. Footprints of Knox, again confirmed within dimensional measurements with tolerance of 1% were found in two directions in the corridor outside the murder room again -- SET IN BLOOD.

The bathmat print at best does not have a confirmed match, but I personally think the defense proved it was measured wrong and could not have been Raffaele Sollecito's print. Dr. Rinaldi measured the big toe including the top of the second toe. This error caused the width of the big toe to measure 30mm. When measured correctly the toe on the bathmat measured 24.8mm, which is incompatible with Raffaele’s toe measurement of 30mm. It is not true that it was proven to be a match to Raffaele at all in my opinon.

The luminol prints tested negative for blood using TMB. It is unknown what the Luminol reacted to, whether the prints even belonged to Amanda and they cannot be dated.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

exoneration versus release

Assuming they lost both appeals, it would be a pretty close run thing between being released early on good behaviour verses ECHR hearing the case let alone ruling on the case.

CoulsdonUK,

However, if the ECHR found them innocent, they would be exonerated. Also, they might be entitled to compensation for their time of incarceration. An article I ran across with respect to the U.S. suggested that a good deal of monetary compensation should be given for wrongful convictions, "Putting an innocent person in prison should be very expensive for the state."

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I would not say that the tabloids' view is equivalent to a country's view. However, some of the British broadsheets have at times been anti-Knox. "Amanda Knox snared by her lust and her lies" sounds like a tabloid headline but was not.

I am trying to understand why some people seem so concerned with public opinion especially public opinion in the UK after all it cannot have any impact in Italy let alone on the appeal, for example do you think translated Italian news has any impact in America’s view of the case? I could understand these, shall I say concerns, if the jury was based on US or UK jury’s with no direct legal guidance whilst deliberating but the appeal jury will comprise of 2 judges one if which is the appeal judge, unless there is that almost Daily Mail’esc distrust of anything foreign.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

However, if the ECHR found them innocent, they would be exonerated. Also, they might be entitled to compensation for their time of incarceration. An article I ran across with respect to the U.S. suggested that a good deal of monetary compensation should be given for wrongful convictions, "Putting an innocent person in prison should be very expensive for the state."

Sorry are you stating that ECHR could overrule a member state judicial ruling in a capital crime such as murder?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

not sure

Sorry are you stating that ECHR could overrule a member state judicial ruling in a capital crime such as murder?

Someone else with greater knowledge of the ECHR than I have (which is very little) will have to answer definitively. I may have made an incorrect assumption about what the ECHR can and cannot do. However, they could be appealed to over Ms. Knox's and Mr. Sollecito's precautionary detention, as I have discussed before.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

publcity and white chargers

I am trying to understand why some people seem so concerned with public opinion especially public opinion in the UK after all it cannot have any impact in Italy let alone on the appeal, for example do you think translated Italian news has any impact in America’s view of the case? I could understand these, shall I say concerns, if the jury was based on US or UK jury’s with no direct legal guidance whilst deliberating but the appeal jury will comprise of 2 judges one if which is the appeal judge, unless there is that almost Daily Mail’esc distrust of anything foreign.

CoulsdonUK,

The jury was not sequestered, and so could have been influenced by articles, blogs, you name it. There was some discussion on this point many months ago here, if I am not mistaken. I think that there should have been a change of venue, because of the attention the case generated in Perugia. A change in venue would not, of course, be a remedy for adverse pretrial publicity coming from (Italian) national or international sources.

I think it would be a mistake to discount completely the importance of publicity in England or the United States. Such publicity can affect whether third parties chose to become involved or not. Consider this blog entry by Craig Murray. Mr. Murray gets some of his facts wrong; therefore, one wonders what he would have done with a correct set of facts.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

evil fox

CoulsdonUK,

Some Italian news organizations translated Foxy Knoxy as evil fox or some such thing, IIRC. So the foreign press can have unexpected influence, it seems.

 

[Draca]

A father loses his daughter through a vile murder. He has to endure a long legal process before the culprits are found guilty by a unanimous verdict. One cannot imagine the pain he has suffered

He chooses to believe the evidence that was presented, he chooses to believe the unanimous verdict of the jury. The appeal process only lengthens his pain and results in him being out of pocket, due to the visits to Italy that he has had to make..

That is a sad hardship but they have the right to appeal.

In the meantime, a concerted campaign to release these murderers is conducted via the media. One of the killers becomes a media darling, attracting creepy internet fans. Mr. Kercher has to endure fabricated stories that appear to make the murderer the victim of the piece.[

This may be his view, it doesn't make it true. No one is trying to release murderers, they are trying to realease wrongfully convicted innocent people.

In spite of this he has endured a dignified silence, until he feels that the record should be put straight.

Neither quiet or dignified.

For this he is vilified by the likes of Kevin Lowe who accuses him of only being interested in making money out of the case. He spins his take on the case any which way he can, covering the bankruptcy of his theories with smokescreens such as does Solecitto have money or not and making outlandish suggestions about the morality of this poor man. All the time dismissing any opposing views with suggestions that others are less intelligent than himself, so they must be wrong.

Kevin never said that was his only interest. JK is in fact suing for money so he is obviously interested in it, I assume justice for his daughter's murder is his first priority though. Why did he not protest when Rudy Guede got his sentence reduced? Why didn't the prosecution appeal against this? Where was John Kercher's outraged article in the Daily Mail that his daughter's killer just got his sentence reduced to 16yrs?

I could go on, but really this board has degenerated to such an extent that most reasonable people have left. I shall try to be more disciplined and leave Kevin preaching to the few who choose to return.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

The jury was not sequestered, and so could have been influenced by articles, blogs, you name it. There was some discussion on this point many months ago here, if I am not mistaken. I think that there should have been a change of venue, because of the attention the case generated in Perugia. A change in venue would not, of course, be a remedy for adverse pretrial publicity coming from (Italian) national or international sources.

I think it would be a mistake to discount completely the importance of publicity in England or the United States. Such publicity can affect whether third parties chose to become involved or not. Consider this blog entry by Craig Murray. Mr. Murray gets some of his facts wrong; therefore, one wonders what he would have done with a correct set of facts.

I have seen this comment about sequestering elsewhere, but no actual proof that jury let alone the 2 judges were actually swayed by the media, do you have any independent evidence that this actually happened?

 

[Kaosium]

I am trying to understand why some people seem so concerned with public opinion especially public opinion in the UK after all it cannot have any impact in Italy let alone on the appeal, for example do you think translated Italian news has any impact in America’s view of the case? I could understand these, shall I say concerns, if the jury was based on US or UK jury’s with no direct legal guidance whilst deliberating but the appeal jury will comprise of 2 judges one if which is the appeal judge, unless there is that almost Daily Mail’esc distrust of anything foreign.

In part it's due to the fact that the Daily Mail undertook a smear campaign unlike anything I have ever seen directed at someone not a politician or celebrity, merely a twenty year-old girl who'd not even been charged with a crime. Someone more patient than I went and counted 100 uses of the moniker
'Foxy Knoxy' by the Daily Mail between the arrest and her trial. Had the press been paying attention to something more important than when and where she'd bought underthings, perhaps this wouldn't have gone so far. Perhaps they might have been investigating the numerous lies, misstatements and outright incompetence displayed by police in Perugia in this case. Instead 'the newspapers went along for the ride.'

For the trial one can see that in a microcosm in the headline I recall reading somewhere (in retrospect) after Quintavalle testified. As you recall, he'd been refuted by the two people who were with him, as well as Inspector Volturno's contemporaneous records, yet the coverage was something akin to 'witness refutes Knox's story!' as opposed to 'shaky witness embarrasses prosecution!'

This thread is about more than just the upcoming appeal.

 

[Kaosium]

Sorry are you stating that ECHR could overrule a member state judicial ruling in a capital crime such as murder?

According to an Italian familiar with their legal system on the IIP board:


"After the sentence in the first trial Amanda still has 5 chance (plus one) to get out of jail: Process of Appeal, Supreme Court, European Court of Human Rights, review of the trial (only if, after the final conviction, there will be new evidence/witnesses) , presidential pardon. To these five options should be added: to be freed by a U.S. court after her possible transfer to the United States."

 

[Kaosium]

I have seen this comment about sequestering elsewhere, but no actual proof that jury let alone the 2 judges were actually swayed by the media, do you have any independent evidence that this actually happened?

I wonder how one would compile such 'evidence?' How many jurors would actually admit upfront they were swayed by the media coverage?

Perhaps one way of determining whether that could have been a factor would be to see just what proponents of her guilt don't want to talk about. As long as I've posted on this subject there's been one thing they run from shrieking: evidence adduced at trial.

None of them want to discuss that at all!

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Kevin never said that was his only interest. JK is in fact suing for money so he is obviously interested in it, I assume justice for his daughter's murder is his first priority though. Why did he not protest when Rudy Guede got his sentence reduced? Why didn't the prosecution appeal against this? Where was John Kercher's outraged article in the Daily Mail that his daughter's killer just got his sentence reduced to 16yrs?

Possibly because the Kercher family’s counsel would have explained that Guede sentence was first reduced to match Raffaele and Amanda’s sentence then because he opted for a “fast track” trial his sentence was automatically reduced by 1/3rd, hence what I regard as a low sentence of 16 years, probably much less with good behaviour.

I am pretty sure that that family followed their counsel advice regarding the civil complaint which incidentally is against anyone that is actually convicted of Meredith’s murder.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

In part it's due to the fact that the Daily Mail undertook a smear campaign unlike anything I have ever seen directed at someone not a politician or celebrity, merely a twenty year-old girl who'd not even been charged with a crime. Someone more patient than I went and counted 100 uses of the moniker
'Foxy Knoxy' by the Daily Mail between the arrest and her trial. Had the press been paying attention to something more important than when and where she'd bought underthings, perhaps this wouldn't have gone so far. Perhaps they might have been investigating the numerous lies, misstatements and outright incompetence displayed by police in Perugia in this case. Instead 'the newspapers went along for the ride.'

For the trial one can see that in a microcosm in the headline I recall reading somewhere (in retrospect) after Quintavalle testified. As you recall, he'd been refuted by the two people who were with him, as well as Inspector Volturno's contemporaneous records, yet the coverage was something akin to 'witness refutes Knox's story!' as opposed to 'shaky witness embarrasses prosecution!'

This thread is about more than just the upcoming appeal.

You can say what you like about the Daily Mail, bit to jingoistic for my taste.