Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

[humber]

NALSA Report:
"It is easy to be confused by the black line getting more than 10 degrees off DDW late in the measurement period. Every point on the black line after 589065.8 includes some measurements from after the measurement period is over."

Because Spork filtered it, but does not know about group delay, so NALSA apologized for him.

NALSA:
"One of the reviewers of this report pointed out that the true wind speed (black line in separation graph) was 4-5 mph faster a few seconds before the measurement period(MP) than the speeds during the period yet it continued to accelerate in the lighter winds present in the MP . This brings up the question if there is some way the energy associated with the higher wind can provide acceleration during the measurement period. The observers see no meaningful way this could happen without using stored energy. Blackbird has no such capability."

It can't be stored momentum, because the BB has none, yet it accelerates in lighter wind. So, it's the fairies that allow it to accelerate in slower wind, and not instrumentation error.
I don't know why NALSA didn't just post Spork the record.

NALSA:
"A number of people not affiliated with the Thin Air Design (TAD) Team were present during the trials, including Richard Jenkins (current top speed record holder) and Doug Frasher, Bengt Johansson, and Dean Shaw of the Volvo design team in Los Angeles. Emilio Castrano Graff and Dean Baker showed up with their own small, unmanned, radio controlled DDW craft. Four engineers from Joby Energy flew down from Santa Cruse and landed on the lake bed to witness the record attempt. Other members of the Thin Air Designs team included Dave Glover, Steve Morris, and
Chris Fields"

And one NALSA official, and a deputized journalist.

 

[Llyricist]

Oh good. I will address it directly to you. Failure to respond will make you look weak.

LOL

the irony just keeps on comin.

 

[Llyricist]

NALSA Report:
"It is easy to be confused by the black line getting more than 10 degrees off DDW late in the measurement period. Every point on the black line after 589065.8 includes some measurements from after the measurement period is over."

Because Spork filtered it, but does not know about group delay, so NALSA apologized for him.

No, they were explaining it to people that may be confused, without taking into account the depths of some people's confusion.

NALSA:
"One of the reviewers of this report pointed out that the true wind speed (black line in separation graph) was 4-5 mph faster a few seconds before the measurement period(MP) than the speeds during the period yet it continued to accelerate in the lighter winds present in the MP . This brings up the question if there is some way the energy associated with the higher wind can provide acceleration during the measurement period. The observers see no meaningful way this could happen without using stored energy. Blackbird has no such capability."

It can't be stored momentum, because the BB has none, yet it accelerates in lighter wind. So, it's the fairies that allow it to accelerate in slower wind, and not instrumentation error.

No, the BB works as advertised.

 

[humber]

So, Humber, at 2.8* windspeed you contend that the prop still acts as a sail?

What would be the angle of the relative wind to the prop, even at the maximum deviation of the wind from direction of travel, while the craft id DDW?

Can you describe ANY other craft that can travel as fast as the BB, while maintaining a constant heading on average DDW?

A problem Captain, is that I have no more data than has been provided.
Spork has all of the data, but won't tell or explain the filtering that has definitely been done.
But, if it is badly measured, then it's no good. But, I can say, with certaintyfrom the principles of the vane, that all of the deviations will be higher than posted. Some of that, NALSA know.

NALSA:
"The true wind speed and direction were calculated from the vector sum of the speed, heading and apparent wind of the chase vehicle and the
speed and heading of the craft. There is some increase in measurement uncertainty from 'subtracting large numbers' effects."

(They omitted acceleration, and that will be the dominate effect)

There statement means that the effects of the apparent wind, swamp the effects of the true wind. They do not have the data to do better, if only because the sampling rate is too low.
Also, I am familiar with the GPS chip that is in the GT31, and the effects that changing direction will have on it. Waving it at arms length will produce a 0.1m/s error. There are too many unknowns to support the claim.
ETA:
I see that you have asked Yevgheni a similar question. Assuming the cart is 650lb, then the maximum net force is 32N. The peak demand for energy for KE, is 300J/s. But what exactly is the wind doing?
Angle is not that important, because there is not keel and the wind often changes direction. The cart can turn on the rear wheels, and that is where the mass is. Tyre scrubbing results, but that does indeed happen, as the pictures show.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Wow. This means that if I can roll to 10mph before starting my car I'll get 10mph worth of improved fuel consumption! Cheers Humber for saving me a lot of money. I wish I'd known this years ago

The humberverse is a spectacular place. If you follow humber long enough you might want to move there yourself. One of my favorite features is that a ball at the top of its arc has an acceleration of zero Gotsta wonder how they get down from there

 

[GlennB]

Wow. This means that if I can roll to 10mph before starting my car I'll get 10mph worth of improved fuel consumption! Cheers Humber for saving me a lot of money. I wish I'd known this years ago

You will, if you don't get to constant speed. If you think that makes no difference, then you will have to ask why sprinters worry about every millisecond, but long distance runners don't.

You have so many ways to be wrong. 100m sprinters hit peak speed at about 60m and then slow gradually. They worry about every millisecond because there's so little time to make up for errors like a slight hesitation at the start or a scraped foot coming out of the blocks.

The main point being that if a sprinter were allowed to start on a short downhill - and then hit the flat - it would not add to their maximum speed, it would merely improve their average speed.

 

[catsmate]

I will link a post of his that claims this. It is at the bottom of the post if you want to skip ahead. I don't want to copy and paste his rant for everybody to see here, there may be innocent women and children reading this

http://talkrational.org/showpost.php?p=1312317&postcount=746

Wow. That is some epic level stupid.

 

[sol invictus]

Humber, may I ask you a question? What is it about this topic that interests you?

 

[spork]

Humber, may I ask you a question? What is it about this topic that interests you?

Isn't it obvious he has a crush on me?

 

[D'rok]

I never cease to be astounded at the reality-denying lengths some people will go to simply to avoid admitting that they were wrong.

I especially love how, in the humberverse, the treadmill is not a valid proof of concept because it is not in "real" wind, but the blackbird is also not a successful demonstration because it is in "real" wind.

Awesome sophistry.

 

[spork]

I never cease to be astounded at the reality-denying lengths some people will go to simply to avoid admitting that they were wrong.

I especially love how, in the humberverse, the treadmill is not a valid proof of concept because it is not in "real" wind, but the blackbird is also not a successful demonstration because it is in "real" wind.

Awesome sophistry.

If you really want to be entertained by denial of reality, humber thinks he has us scared, cornered, and on-the-ropes. Aside from his obvious bluster and ********, he appears to actually believe this at times.

 

[D'rok]

If you really want to be entertained by denial of reality, humber thinks he has us scared, cornered, and on-the-ropes. Aside from his obvious bluster and ********, he appears to actually believe this at times.

Yeah, but he's gonna build his own cart and conduct his own experiments to prove you wrong and he'll film it so the whole world can see his victory. You'll see!

Any day now...


<crickets>

 

[dlorde]

So, no test is valid unless it's conducted in a "real" wind, but the test is invalid if the velocity or direction of the wind changes a little bit, which just about always happens with "real" wind. Nice.

Guess that's why a scientist would find a way to control the experiment - for example, by running the kart on a treadmill in a hanger with still air, thus ensuring a constant velocity wind relative to the treadmill track. A kart on the track can take advantage of this difference just like on the ground in the open air. As someone mentioned previously, the physics would be identical.

 

[Llyricist]

Guess that's why a scientist would find a way to control the experiment - for example, by running the kart on a treadmill in a hanger with still air, thus ensuring a constant velocity wind relative to the treadmill track. A kart on the track can take advantage of this difference just like on the ground in the open air. As someone mentioned previously, the physics would be identical.

Except for the vibration of the motor which creates a resonant feedback loop inducing a latched state, anyone that knows anything about electronics will understand this! [ /H number 2 and seconded blindly by H number 1 ]

 

[Jack by the hedge]

NALSA:
"One of the reviewers of this report pointed out that the true wind speed (black line in separation graph) was 4-5 mph faster a few seconds before the measurement period(MP) than the speeds during the period yet it continued to accelerate in the lighter winds present in the MP . This brings up the question if there is some way the energy associated with the higher wind can provide acceleration during the measurement period. The observers see no meaningful way this could happen without using stored energy. Blackbird has no such capability."

I think the highlighted word "this" means the observers could see no meaningful way "energy associated with the higher wind can provide acceleration during the measurement period". It seems plain to me from the context and structure that this is what the writer intended.

It appears from humber's bolding of the text, however, that he thinks it means the obervers could see no meaningful way the craft could continue "to accelerate in the lighter winds present in the MP".

Can you clarify that please, humber?

 

[AvalonXQ]

Did we ever get that "math bomb"? I'd love to see it.

 

[RossFW]

Did we ever get that "math bomb"? I'd love to see it.

It's in a file with the video of Humbers propless cart- only available in the Humberverse....

 

[Llyricist]

That's okay, if the past is any kind of guide (and it is), it would indeed resemble a bomb..., or rather, the aftermath of a bomb.

A Jumbled mess of incoherently presented, misapplied formulas with added terms to "correct" for any right answers that may otherwise be obtained, with a heavy helping of irrelevant terms of art from his claimed experience in the field of electronic instrumentation, again presented without regard to coherency.

And of course the obligatory insulting comment he imagines is witty.

 

[dlorde]

Except for the vibration of the motor which creates a resonant feedback loop inducing a latched state, anyone that knows anything about electronics will understand this! [ /H number 2 and seconded blindly by H number 1 ]

Tsk - only an idiot would do it without a fluid-flywheel clutch coupling in a fully-damped flexible housing...

 

[spork]

Yeah, but he's gonna build his own cart and conduct his own experiments to prove you wrong and he'll film it so the whole world can see his victory. You'll see!

Any day now...


<crickets>

Right - just like Charles Platt.