Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Akhenaten]

Logic dictates that at best three are wrong and one is right. At worst, all are wrong.

One said it was an angel.
Another said it was two angels.
the third said it was a man
the forth said it was two men.

THESE ALL CAN'T BE TRUE.

I've already brought in a link that logically explains the "one and two" alleged discrepancies . . .

You've brought in all manner of nonsense over the course of the thread, DOC, and none of it has explained anything logically.

Perhaps you'll either grace us with a link to this 'explanation', just as you are so fond of demanding of others, or even better, you'll do as you were asked and provide YOUR explanation for these ACTUAL discrepancies.

. . . and regarding angels:

From the article: What does the Bible teach about angels?

Are you for real???

"When angels do appear, they generally appear in the form of men {Thus names like Gabriel and Michael}. In Genesis 18, Abraham welcomed three angelic guests who appeared at first to be nothing more than some travellers. In the following chapter, two angels went to Sodom where they were assumed to be simply a pair of human visitors."

DOC, the Old Testament no more serves an authoritative source for the information contained within in the New Testament than The Hobbit points to the veracity of The Lord of the Rings.

Given the huge number of times this incredibly simple idea has been explained to you, it's either ingenuous or wilfully ignorant of you to pretend to not understand it.

And this site states angels are mentioned 108 times in the OT and 165 times in the NT:

<snip>

So bloody what, DOC? Does the number of times that wizards are mentioned in the various Harry Potter books mean that wizards exist?

If I write 'Leprechaun' 1000 times on a peice of paper will that somehow make them real?

Your 'argument' here is childish prattle, DOC, but as hard as it might be to believe, it's about to get even worse.

And the above alleged discrepancies just proves without a doubt the 4 Gospels are overall independent accounts.

This one short, grammatically-challenged sentence contains more concentrated stupidity than I would have thought could possibly be jammed in to such a small space.

Lets' look at it bit by bit.


Alleged discrepancies?

These are the actual words from YOUR Bible. The book that YOU are claiming contains absolute truth.

Matthew 28:2-5

²And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. ³His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. ⁴And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men. ⁵But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.​

Mark 16:5

And entering the tomb, they saw a young man clothed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed.​

Luke 24:4

And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments.​

John 20:11,12

¹¹But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. ¹²And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.​

​

Those words in red aren't allegations, DOC. They're right there for everyone to see. They've been there in every Bible that has ever been printed.

They are DIFFERENT WORDS. They are DISCREPANCIES. You are describing God's Holy Word as ALLEGATIONS.

Are you sure that's what you meant to do?​

Proves?

First of all I want to know why he is using the word proof in this thread. This thread is about evidence not proof. Currently there is no proof for Christianity but there is plenty of evidence. This is similar to abiogenesis (the life from non-life theory), there is some evidence but no proof.

ETA But the bible does say without faith it is impossible to please God, so it would seem God doesn't want us to have definite proof regarding religion.

my bolding


Holy Contradiction, Batman!​

Alleged discrepancies just proves without a doubt?

What a stupid thing to claim, DOC. Within one phrase you refer to EXACTLY THE SAME WORDS as both ALLEGATIONS and as PROOF BEYOND DOUBT.

Perhaps you can't see the complete and utter failure in doing this, but please be assured, you'd be totally alone in this bit of selective blindness.​

Independent accounts?

Well go on!!!

It's kind of the whole point (for the purpose of this particular question) that these accounts are 'independent'. The question you're being asked is why do these different accounts of what you claim as the single most important event in history contain DISCREPANCIES.

The question remains unanswered, DOC, and that's out there for all to see.​

 

[Elizabeth I]

So you don't want to analyze all facts, just facts that are non-emotional?

And the Bible doesn't shy away from talking about tremendous human disasters and sufferings.

All facts are non-emotional. People may have emotions about facts, but the facts themselves are devoid of emotional content.

I never said that, but on thinking about it for awhile here is what the facts say:

Haiti practices voodoo.

Thailand (2004 tsunami killed over 11,000) is well known for child and other prostitution.

Groups in Indonesia, where the 2004 tsunami killed over 110,000, severely persecutes Christians.

Sherman Oaks (which suffered more damage than other communities closer to the epicenter of the 2008 Nothridge quake) is the epicenter of the porn industry.

From the article: Learning from Earthquakes
by Daniel Pendick

"In fact, it {the earthquake} was the costliest natural disaster in U.S. history. And, inexplicably, the shaking was unusually strong in certain spots. Sherman Oaks and Santa Monica, for instance, suffered greater damage than some towns much closer to the earthquake's epicenter."

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/savageearth/earthquakes/html/sidebar1.html

New Orleans is well New Orleans.

Japan has less than 1% Christians.

Amazing. What an advertisement for Christian charity and God's love.

Completely contemptible and disgusting.

 

[joobz]

Amazing. What an advertisement for Christian charity and God's love.

Completely contemptible and disgusting.

It is strange that DOC would advocate the concept of a mass murdering, destructive god, but also deny the fact that the same god condone's slavery.

 

[Agatha]

DOC has copied that bit of <rule10> into an OP on the R&P board, if anyone fancies expressing their feelings about it in the appropriate thread.

 

[Akhenaten]

So you don't want to analyze all facts, just facts that are non-emotional?

There's no doubt about it, DOC, if there's one absolute truth that's been revealed in this thread it's that any post of yours that starts with the word "So" will be one of the more common formal logical fallacies, generally a non sequitur.

And the Bible doesn't shy away from talking about tremendous human disasters and sufferings.

Indeed, the vile creature that's the star of the whole show apparently takes great pride in being responsible for them.

On the one hand, it's a good thing that it's just a fairytale, but on the other, it's quite disgusting that there are so many people fervently wishing that it was all true.

 

[Elizabeth I]

It is strange that DOC would advocate the concept of a mass murdering, destructive god, but also deny the fact that the same god condone's slavery.

Well, if you recall, doc did offer the opinion that slavery - even child prostitution - could be A Good Thing.

 

[dafydd]

Japan has less than 1% Christians.

What does that have to do with an earthquake?

 

[dafydd]

Very true. Wasn't it amazing that Christchurch Cathedral emerged from the earthquake completely unscathed?

By the way, DOC, you ignored my comment about Constantine the Great. Do you think his Christian beliefs made him morally superior to the Emperor Nero? Let me refresh your memory: Nero murdered his wife and mother, Constantine executed his wife Fausta and son Crispus. Fausta was executed at the behest of Constantine's mother Helena, who was also a Christian and is regarded as a saint by several Christian denominations.

Constantine was about as christian as Attila The Hun.

 

[Akhenaten]

I hate to say this, oh great and wise Pharoah, but you've spent most of the last few millenia posting here, often with beautifully constructed images, and you're the sane one?

Hmm. Good point. Those rumours I keep hearing about us having been switched at birth might have some truth in them after all.

 

[Akhenaten]

How about the suffering of Jesus on the cross.
What were his last words?

Why do you refuse to answer this?
Are you scared that there might be contradictions?
Did you not say that all contractions can be explained?
What's up DOC?

What is your argument; don't I post enough in this thread, or do you just not want to take the time and energy to make an argument.

What the hell are you on about now, DOC?

There's no argument to be presented, just a simple question. All you have to do is grab your discrepancy-free Bible and look up the answer.

What were Jesus' last words, DOC?

 

[Akhenaten]

No, not anything can be explained. If I said I saw Ronald Reagan at a wake last month, that could not be explained. If I said I saw Bill Clinton at a wake on Wednesday in LA and he was in Haiti all day Tue Wed and Thurs that could not be explained.

One thing that can't be explained is why you keep posting gibberish and expecting people not to notice.

 

[kmortis]

But you both agree, don't you, that even in our modern era with all our technology there are still a great deal of conflicting stories about nuclear plants coming from our media.

Is 1 plant damaged or 2 -- or more?

You really don't understand do you?

There's a HUGE difference between the reporting of an on-going disaster, which by its very nature is chaotic and prone to uncertanity and a report of an alleged important event that occured in the past. If, in a decade, the reports of how many nuke plants were damaged in the earthquake and resulting tsunami are still confused, then you'd have a case. AS it stands, you don't.

Now, how about we stay on topic - you remember that, the thing that you promised to "bring in" evidence for? There are a number of questions on the table for you to actually, oh I don't know...ANSWER.

• What were Jesus' last words? (<--That's called a "question mark". Please use it to denote the asking of a question)
• How did Simon the Zealot die?
• One man, two men, one angel, two angels?
• Why should we care about any of this? (Ok, that's a new one, but I'd like to know)

 

[Sun Countess]

From the article: What does the Bible teach about angels?

"When angels do appear, they generally appear in the form of men {Thus names like Gabriel and Michael}. In Genesis 18, Abraham welcomed three angelic guests who appeared at first to be nothing more than some travellers. In the following chapter, two angels went to Sodom where they were assumed to be simply a pair of human visitors."

Quoted for idiocy. I give my animals "human" names, but they do not appear in the forms of men. Check out my cat to the left. What does his human name have to do with his appearance? I understand the broader point they angels allegedly "looked like men" but their names are completely irrelevant.

On the one hand, it's a good thing that it's just a fairytale, but on the other, it's quite disgusting that there are so many people fervently wishing that it was all true.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Lothian]

If I write 'leprechaun' 1000 times on a piece of paper will that somehow make them real?

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[Akhenaten]

I never said that, but on thinking about it for awhile here is what the facts say:

Haiti practices voodoo.

Thailand (2004 tsunami killed over 11,000) is well known for child and other prostitution.

Groups in Indonesia, where the 2004 tsunami killed over 110,000, severely persecutes Christians.

Sherman Oaks (which suffered more damage than other communities closer to the epicenter of the 2008 Nothridge quake) is the epicenter of the porn industry.

From the article: Learning from Earthquakes
by Daniel Pendick

"In fact, it {the earthquake} was the costliest natural disaster in U.S. history. And, inexplicably, the shaking was unusually strong in certain spots. Sherman Oaks and Santa Monica, for instance, suffered greater damage than some towns much closer to the earthquake's epicenter."

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/savageearth/earthquakes/html/sidebar1.html

New Orleans is well New Orleans.

Japan has less than 1% Christians.

For probably the first time since I've been here, I'm not just speechless, but the only picture I can think of is a bloody great swastika, which I refuse to draw.

What an absolute disgrace.

 

[carlitos]

"Haiti practices voodoo" illustrates DOC's God's collective punishment problem. How can a country practice anything? Haiti just sits there, while people tromp around on top of it with their voodoo.

 

[TSR]

"When angels do appear, they generally appear in the form of men {Thus names like Gabriel and Michael}. In Genesis 18, Abraham welcomed three angelic guests who appeared at first to be nothing more than some travellers. In the following chapter, two angels went to Sodom where they were assumed to be simply a pair of human visitors."

.
Okay, then how did those who reported them as angels know they were angels?
.

 

[TSR]

New Orleans is well New Orleans.

.
... and the largest religious demographic (with more than a third of the population) was and is Catholic.

God has something against Catholics?

The why hasn't something happened to Vatican City?
.

 

[TSR]

Revisiting this attempt to pretend that natural disasters are due to lack of Xtians:

Haiti practices voodoo.

.
... but roughly 80% of the people are Catholic.
.

Groups in Indonesia, where the 2004 tsunami killed over 110,000, severely persecutes Christians.

.
... who constitute ~ 10% of the population...
.

Sherman Oaks (which suffered more damage than other communities closer to the epicenter of the 2008 Nothridge quake) is the epicenter of the porn industry.

.
Not that I doubt your familiarity with porn, but do you have any more evidence for this than you've offered to why we know the NT writers told the truth?
.

 

[DOC]

The above post is so breathtaking in its ignorance that it deserves quoting...

Well, I started an entire thread about the post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203566

So maybe you won't have to quote it so much.