Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Lord Emsworth]

I know what Jesus' last words were. I asked. I asked God. His last words were "La ilaha ilAllah".

Poor misguided chap.

 

[Mojo]

...don't I post enough in this thread...

Enough what? You post plenty of fallacies and evasion, and continually repost arguments that have been comprehensively demolished, but there has been a distinct lack of this "evidence" stuff that you claimed the thread was about.

The number of your posts isn't as significant as their lack of cogent content.

 

[zooterkin]

We're not lost, are we? I'm sure we passed that tree before. Anyway, I'm sure we'd couldn't be travelling in circles or anything like that. Maybe it's just deja vu...

Nit picking is self debasing, just wanted to share this with you Paul.

Is it? Oh, dear.

This is all conjecture, who the hell knows what these women had in mind when they left for the tomb, but they went prepaired to annoint the body and woild handle the seal when they arrived...here is what the bible states:


Mark 16:1 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. 2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. 3 And they said among themselves, "Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?"

4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away–for it was very large. 5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man clothed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed. 6 But he said to them, "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen!
He is not here. See the place where they laid Him.

And let's just add the next couple of verses for completeness:

7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.' "
8Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

So, three women. A young man in the tomb. No guards. No earthquake. The women too afraid to say anything to anyone. No Jesus.

What does Matthew say?

Matthew 28
The Resurrection
1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."

8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."

Two women. An angel sitting outside the tomb. The guards 'like dead men'. An earthquake. The women go to tell the disciples, and on the way they see Jesus.

Oh dear. What does Luke say?

Luke 24
The Resurrection
1On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. 5In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.' " 8Then they remembered his words.

9When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. 11But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. 12Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.

Unspecified number of women, but at least 5. Two young men. No guards. No earthquake. The women go to tell the disciples. No Jesus.


Perhaps John can clear up the confusion?

John 20
The Empty Tomb
1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"

3So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. 8Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"

"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."

16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).

17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.

No, that didn't help, a completely different sequence of events. One woman, who fetches the disciples No guards. Two angels in the tomb, but seen only after the disciples have been. Jesus appears.


So, how many people went to the tomb, and what did they see, and who did they tell?


ETA: How many young men, or angels, and were they inside or outside the tomb? Was Jesus's mother there? Was there any sign of guards? Did Peter go in the tomb? Did Jesus appear?


ETA2: Even if you still believe the gospels were actually written by Matthew, Mark, etc., the people who went to the tomb were all women, so at best we're looking at hearsay at one remove.

I told Pax I would not debate the theme of the thread, but you guys are so zealous about your views, it is a revelation to me. So I am going to stick around for a while, I have only experienced the petulant and pedantic musings of the fundies on other forums, and here I find petulant and pedantic in the opposing team to the fundies. It is interesting how different forums have different character.

Exactly what are you finding zealous and petulant? Insistence on evidence?

 

[DOC]

But them pagans had it coming, so it's ok.

I never said that, but on thinking about it for awhile here is what the facts say:

Haiti practices voodoo.

Thailand (2004 tsunami killed over 11,000) is well known for child and other prostitution.

Groups in Indonesia, where the 2004 tsunami killed over 110,000, severely persecutes Christians.

Sherman Oaks (which suffered more damage than other communities closer to the epicenter of the 2008 Nothridge quake) is the epicenter of the porn industry.

From the article: Learning from Earthquakes
by Daniel Pendick

"In fact, it {the earthquake} was the costliest natural disaster in U.S. history. And, inexplicably, the shaking was unusually strong in certain spots. Sherman Oaks and Santa Monica, for instance, suffered greater damage than some towns much closer to the earthquake's epicenter."

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/savageearth/earthquakes/html/sidebar1.html

New Orleans is well New Orleans.

Japan has less than 1% Christians.

 

[Lothian]

Make your argument and I"ll respond.

How do I know there is an argument? We might be in agreement. I just want you to tell me what Jesus’ last words were. I honestly do not know who to believe on the subject.

Am I asking a question about one of the parts of the bible that you have not read? Do you refuse to read those bits in case there are contradictions?

It is a very very easy question yet you refusal to answer it. You are a prime example of someone who calls himself a Christian yet you do not act in the manner directed in the bible. Can I point you to the words of Peter, probably to yet another part of the bible you have not read.

PETER 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in you hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:​

What was the last thing Jesus said before he died on the cross?

 

[Lothian]

I never said that, but on thinking about it for awhile here is what the facts say:

Haiti practices voodoo.

Thailand (2004 tsunami killed over 11,000) is well known for child and other prostitution.

Groups in Indonesia, where the 2004 tsunami killed over 110,000, severely persecutes Christians.

Sherman Oaks (which suffered more damage than other communities closer to the epicenter of the 2008 Nothridge quake) is the epicenter of the porn industry.

From the article: Learning from Earthquakes
by Daniel Pendick

"In fact, it {the earthquake} was the costliest natural disaster in U.S. history. And, inexplicably, the shaking was unusually strong in certain spots. Sherman Oaks and Santa Monica, for instance, suffered greater damage than some towns much closer to the earthquake's epicenter."

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/savageearth/earthquakes/html/sidebar1.html

New Orleans is well New Orleans.

Japan has less than 1% Christians.

Captured in case of later editing.

 

[zooterkin]

I never said that, but on thinking about it for awhile here is what the facts say:

Haiti practices voodoo.

Thailand (2004 tsunami killed over 11,000) is well known for child and other prostitution.

Groups in Indonesia, where the 2004 tsunami killed over 110,000, severely persecutes Christians.

Sherman Oaks (which suffered more damage than other communities closer to the epicenter of the 2008 Nothridge quake) is the epicenter of the porn industry.

From the article: Learning from Earthquakes
by Daniel Pendick

"In fact, it {the earthquake} was the costliest natural disaster in U.S. history. And, inexplicably, the shaking was unusually strong in certain spots. Sherman Oaks and Santa Monica, for instance, suffered greater damage than some towns much closer to the earthquake's epicenter."

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/savageearth/earthquakes/html/sidebar1.html

New Orleans is well New Orleans.

Japan has less than 1% Christians.

What are you trying to say? Being Christian makes you safe from earthquakes? What percentage of the population do you need?

 

[zooterkin]

Captured in case of later editing.

It's breathtaking, isn't it?

 

[Garrette]

The book cited in post #1 talks of the alleged angel discrepancy on pages 284 and 285:

http://books.google.com/books?id=PC...&resnum=2&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

What are you trying to say? Being Christian makes you safe from earthquakes? What percentage of the population do you need?

Obviously New Zeland (53%) and Chile (85% or 88% if including Mormonism) are insufficiently Christian.

California must also be insufficiently Christian as is New Orleans if we include other type disasters.

 

[Dave_46]

I am asking a question. That strange symbol that appears after 'What were Jesus' last words' is a question mark. It is not an argument. I am simply trying to work out which NT accounts we can agree are fabrications.

Make your argument and I"ll respond.

I have bolded a part of Lothian's quote.

Perhaps, DOC, you should have read that, and understood it, before making your response.

Dave

 

[Sideroxylon]

What are you trying to say? Being Christian makes you safe from earthquakes? What percentage of the population do you need?

Have you noticed how churches and cathedrals are left untouched by disaster, as are the homes and businesses of good Christians?

 

[Dave_46]

Captured in case of later editing.

Looks as if he's started a thread with it in R&P

So, (he he, specially for you, Zooterkin) he doesn't appear to be ashamed of it.

Dave

ETA This is totally irrelevant, but I just realised that I think have upped my participation in this thread by 200% with these two posts. I do enjoy reading the contribution of most of the posters here.

 

[Lothian]

What are you trying to say? Being Christian makes you safe from earthquakes? What percentage of the population do you need?

Haiti 80-90% Christian.
New Zealand 91% of those with a faith are Christain.

Also note that once again DOC cherry picks figures to distort the true picture. The Tsunami in 2004 Affected the following four countries the most.

Country| Deaths| % of population - Christian
Indonesia | 130,736 | 8.7%
Sri lanka | 35,322|7.5
India | 12,405|2.3%
Thailand |5,395| 0.8%

Note how the countries with the higher proportion of Christians had the higher number of casualties.

 

[Garrette]

The book cited in post #1 talks of the alleged angel discrepancy on pages 284 and 285:

http://books.google.com/books?id=PC...&resnum=2&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Geisler's explanation of the discrepancy is that separate witnesses are likely to give divergent testimony, yet the NT shows all the witnesses acting as one. So you immediately run into either or both of the following problems:

1. The women immediately gave conflicting reports to the disciples, in which case their word was not to be trusted and was known not to be trusted, and yet it was reported anyway as, well, gospel.

2. The women gave consistent reports to the disciples but gospel writers got incorrect information when conducting their research in which case the gospels can't be taken as, well, gospel.

It's actually not a huge problem except when you try to claim that the Bible is inerrant, either in toto or in part. If you say "Yes, this was a mistake here, but an understandable one that is easily explained," then you need to be able to show how you determine which parts aren't mistakes. You have yet to do that, as has anyone else. (Though of course many people claim they have done so; edge is notable in this regard).

Of course, the problem becomes more difficult if you simply change the question from "Who did the women find at the tomb?" to "Which women visited the tomb?"

This is a far more serious discrepancy, imo.

So then you already knew that if all the 5000 or so NT manuscripts were destroyed we would still have access to almost all of the NT verses by just using the writings of 2nd and 3rd century writers who quoted the NT verses in their writings.thus seriously hurting Bart Ehrman's "copies of copies of copies" over centuries argument.

http://www.remnantreport.com/cgi-bin/imcart/read.cgi?article_id=483&sub=22

Your link does little to substantiate your claim, DOC. Is this the result of your research? Does this post constitute your promised evidence for this claim?

I read your link; I had read it before. It doesn't even make the claim you say it supports (though it heavily implies it). It makes only one statement in support of such a claim and, even if true, that statement does not say that the NT could be reconstructed purely from early quotations (minus a few verses).

And, no, I won't post that statement for you. Do your own homework.

Status of your claim regarding sufficiency of early quotations to reconstruct the NT: Zero support.

 

[zooterkin]

So then you already knew that if all the 5000 or so NT manuscripts were destroyed we would still have access to almost all of the NT verses by just using the writings of 2nd and 3rd century writers who quoted the NT verses in their writings.

Are you backing away from your original claim that the NT could be reconstructed from those quotes? And, either way, have you got evidence yet showing where all except the missing 7, 10 or 11 verses are quoted?

 

[Alice Shortcake]

Have you noticed how churches and cathedrals are left untouched by disaster, as are the homes and businesses of good Christians?

Very true. Wasn't it amazing that Christchurch Cathedral emerged from the earthquake completely unscathed?

By the way, DOC, you ignored my comment about Constantine the Great. Do you think his Christian beliefs made him morally superior to the Emperor Nero? Let me refresh your memory: Nero murdered his wife and mother, Constantine executed his wife Fausta and son Crispus. Fausta was executed at the behest of Constantine's mother Helena, who was also a Christian and is regarded as a saint by several Christian denominations.

 

[John Jones]

Come on DOC. What goes in the speech bubble?

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/4474d7e9f20c0d21.gif[/qimg]

"Always look on the bright side of life"?

 

[Waterman]

If I go to the pope's funeral and write to someone that I saw president Bush there, and a newspaper article writes there were 4 US presidents there, that doesn't mean one of us is wrong. There is no contradiciton between the 2 accounts. There would only be a contradiction if I wrote president Bush was the only president at the pope's funeral.

Would you please provide us with some sort of outline of the sequence of events that occured and where people were placed.

Say of we were to stage the Scene at the tomb for a play how would we include all the elements and in what order. Because I am alredy seeing some difficulty on figuring out how to adjust the timing for the rolling of the stone and the arrival of the women.

 

[carlitos]

I never said that, but on thinking about it for awhile here is what the facts say:

Haiti practices voodoo.

Thailand (2004 tsunami killed over 11,000) is well known for child and other prostitution.

Groups in Indonesia, where the 2004 tsunami killed over 110,000, severely persecutes Christians.

Sherman Oaks (which suffered more damage than other communities closer to the epicenter of the 2008 Nothridge quake) is the epicenter of the porn industry.

From the article: Learning from Earthquakes
by Daniel Pendick

"In fact, it {the earthquake} was the costliest natural disaster in U.S. history. And, inexplicably, the shaking was unusually strong in certain spots. Sherman Oaks and Santa Monica, for instance, suffered greater damage than some towns much closer to the earthquake's epicenter."

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/savageearth/earthquakes/html/sidebar1.html

New Orleans is well New Orleans.

Japan has less than 1% Christians.

The above post is so breathtaking in its ignorance that it deserves quoting and re-quoting. What an advertisement for "Christian" values.

It's breathtaking, isn't it?

Indeed.

 

[X]

Make your argument and I'll respond.

Permit me:




You claimed that there are no contradictions in the New Testament which cannot be logically explained.

But...

Matthew (27:46) and Mark (15:34) record Jesus' last words as "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?", which translates to "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Luke (23:46) records Jesus' last words as "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.".

John (19:30) records Jesus' last words as "It is finished.".

(I could diverge into which gospel was written first, which ones copied it, what bits were later interpolations here, and what the theological focus of the different authors was, but I won't. Bart Ehrman covers it well in "Lost Christianities" and "Misquoting Jesus".)

The argument at play here, DOC, is your contention that there are no contradictions within the New Testament which cannot be logically explained.

Jesus' last words present a clear contradiction. The question "What were Jesus' last words?" is not an argument. It is a direct challenge to your argument. Either you can provide a rational explanation for this apparent contradiction, or you have to admit that your argument about there being no contradictions is wrong.

Ball is in your court.