Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Justinian2]

As I believe you know the SC ruled that Guede and unnamed others were responsible for Meredith murder, it is yet to be determined who the unnamed others are. In addition, Guede has nothing to do with Raffaele and Amanda’s appeal or have I got this wrong?

I believe that the SC should have ruled that Guede and possibly unnamed others were responsible for Meredith murder, it is yet to be determined who the unnamed others are. The unnamed others could be 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 or more. To be correct and unbiased, the SC should have included zero as a solution to the set of possible unnamed others.

In addition, Guede has nothing to do with Raffaele and Amanda’s appeal or have I got this wrong?

Amanda and Raffaele are ONLY guilty if it can be proved they conspired with Guede. Since it is agreed that Guede killed MK, AK and RS are absolved of acting on their own to kill Meredith (she was only killed once).

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

John Kercher has the right to voice his opinion. However, when he writes about contested evidence as if it were undisputed fact, he puts his intellectual opponents in a dilemma. Does one keeps silent and allow possibly misleading statements to go unchallenged, or does one speak out and risk looking callous toward a grieving father? I submit that there is no easy answer.

Halides1
Whether you or others agree with John Kercher the evidence was accepted by the jury in the trial. Now you and others may passionately contest this evidence and the verdict, but Raffaele and Amanda are currently appealing their conviction and sentence, is this not a fact?

I could say the same of Amanda parent’s public utterances. However, I have concluded that the deciding opinion wrongly or rightly will be the appeal courts verdict.

I would just leave the man to his grief and opinions.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Kaosium:

Amanda Knox is still considered innocent under Italian law.

Another just as accurate term is that Raffaele and Amanda are convicted pending their automatic appeals, apple and oranges. The verdict could hardly be innocent pending your appeals?

The case against her is considered laughable by many notables, which is the reason anyone is listening to her parents about it.

It probably would be laughable if wasn’t so serious? I tend not to find it laughable in any meaning of the word.

That's what gets them coverage, not them hiring a PR firm to deal with all the press requests. Naturally they are willing to do whatever it takes to get their innocent kid out of jail, what kind of parents would they be if they did not?

What kind of Father would John Kercher be if he did not speak for his murdered daughter? You seem to be assigning fairness and emotion to Amanda’s family whilst not according exactly the same right to John Kercher, why?

A victim does not have the right to be a victimizer. Maresca is working to put Amanda Knox's parents in jail and take their money, they are not the aggressors here.

Sorry I am not sure I understand your point, this isn’t a contest of who is the greater victim, well not from my point of view. Is awarding compensation in such cases automatic? Do you know what is the percentage of those convicted actually pay compensation to the victims family?

 

[Justinian2]

CoulsdonUK,

John Kercher has the right to voice his opinion. However, when he writes about contested evidence as if it were undisputed fact, he puts his intellectual opponents in a dilemma. Does one keeps silent and allow possibly misleading statements to go unchallenged, or does one speak out and risk looking callous toward a grieving father? I submit that there is no easy answer.

I invoked the ire of PMF cross posters 190 times by speaking out (in JREF) about using appeals to sympathy in lieu of evidence. I have looked callous towards the grieving father. Uncorrected misquotes (in the PMF) amplified the antagonism of the PMF terror cell towards me.

I think eulogies of Meredith made as appeals to sympathy or used as a substitute for the paucity of good evidence, are not in good taste.

It takes a certain intellectual courage to stand up for Amanda and Raffaele.

 

[Alt+F4]

With respect to Mr. Sollecito, it has already been discussed here that he inherited property from his mother worth millions of euros. I doubt than any of us is in a position to provide the property deed(s).

So there is no evidence that he has any money at all. Of course it's easy to just make stuff up (I know it wasn't you that started this rumor). Rudy is decended from the royal family of the Ivory Coast. It must be true because I just wrote it on the Internet.

 

[Alt+F4]

Maresca is working to put Amanda Knox's parents in jail and take their money

How is he doing that? I doubt Amanda's parents have much money.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Justinian2:

I believe that the SC should have ruled that Guede and possibly unnamed others were responsible for Meredith murder, it is yet to be determined who the unnamed others are. The unnamed others could be 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 or more. To be correct and unbiased, the SC should have included zero as a solution to the set of possible unnamed others.

Please let us deal with the facts.

Amanda and Raffaele are ONLY guilty if it can be proved they conspired with Guede.

Do you really believe that is the scope of their appeal?

Since it is agreed that Guede killed MK, AK and RS are absolved of acting on their own to kill Meredith (she was only killed once).

I am not sure I follow what you are saying here. Raffaele, Amanda and Guede were charged with Meredith’s murder the judicial separation occurred because Guede’s legal team advised a “fast track trial”, surely you know this?

 

[Draca]

Must admit I am taken aback that a number of people give the impression that John Kercher has no right to voice his opinion, that somehow it is acceptable for Amanda’s family to appear on TV and in the newspaper media speaking about their point of view of the case, discuss their interpretation of evidence or events but the murder victim’s family should remain silent, this is absurd!

It comes across as though the Kercher Family and Meredith in particular are responsible for ruining Amanda and Raffaele lives.

He absolutely has the right to say his opinion! By publishing articles he also puts his view out there to be criticized though. Especially since he is listing evidence against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. If he was only writing about his daughter and his personal loss that would be completely different.

Also, I know that list of guilt that is in his article. I believe he wrote the personal parts but someone else helped with the evidence part. It could be TJMK, PMF or as Moodstream suggested perhaps Maresca. The guilt points listed were so similar to the usual suspects that a few people even thought John Kercher might even BE Harry Rag. I tend to think he is just working them.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Excuse me but I don't think anyone is claiming Amanda and Raffaele's case was treated differently than other murder cases in Italy. The claim (it seems to me) is that there are aspects of the Italian criminal justice system that are in need of reform, and this case highlights a number of them.

Amnesty International ruling is not binding.

I pointed out the reports were not up to date and this can be viewed as quibbling but not moving goalposts. I would add that I doubt that any country would overhaul its legal system because of Amnesty International findings, as for ECHR member states are given time to address any serious violations.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

He absolutely has the right to say his opinion! By publishing articles he also puts his view out there to be criticized though. Especially since he is listing evidence against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. If he was only writing about his daughter and his personal loss that would be completely different.

Also, I know that list of guilt that is in his article. I believe he wrote the personal parts but someone else helped with the evidence part. It could be TJMK, PMF or as Moodstream suggested perhaps Maresca. The guilt points listed were so similar to the usual suspects that a few people even thought John Kercher might even BE Harry Rag. I tend to think he is just working them.

John Kercher is a freelance journalist, therefore, I believe he is more than capable of writing for himself.

Those of you who support Raffaele and Amanda find nothing wrong with their parents public statements because you agree with their point of view, my simple point is that if it is okay for them to speak publicly and question the investigation, evidence analysis and verdict of the trial, why can’t John Kercher write from his own point of view?

What Father would not speak up for his child? How is John Kercher any different than Amanda’s father and Step-father?

 

[Justinian2]

Justinian2:
Please let us deal with the facts.

I expressed an opinion that the SC decision could have been better worded. True, that is only my opinion, but it is a fact that it is my opinion and it is plausible.

Do you really believe that is the scope of their appeal?

No.

I am not sure I follow what you are saying here. Raffaele, Amanda and Guede were charged with Meredith’s murder the judicial separation occurred because Guede’s legal team advised a “fast track trial”, surely you know this?

Of course I know that it was a fast track trial.

I said that Merdith wasn't killed twice and that Guede did kill Meredith. That means that either the courts convicted one or two innocent people or that Guede conspired with AK and/or RS. The Guede decision is logically connected with any decision on Amanda and Raffaele.

If there was no conspiracy, then Amanda and Raffaele are NOT guilty.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Mr. Kercher is a victim, too

I read it differently. It is pretty apparent to me that that Amanda Knox will win her appeal and those who prematurely adjudged her guilty are lashing out at her. This would be the third article in as many months written by John Kercher fixating blame on Amanda Knox, the second to include a litany of 'evidence' that could have been written by Harry Rag.

John Kercher seems to be painting himself into a corner. He's going to be in a pretty piss-poor moral position when Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are exonerated, his actions from the beginning subject to scrutiny. I think it another failing of the Italian system that it invested him in the outcome of what should have been an objective inquiry into whether Rafffaele and Amanda had anything to do with his daughter's death. I have read at both IIP and PMF that Maresca was provided to the Kercher family, paid for by the Italian Courts.

So from the beginning he's had Mignini and Maresca telling him Amanda Knox is guilty, Massei concurs and he's now invested in the outcome, which in the end might just make him another victim of this tragedy, perpetuated in the first instance by Rudy Guede and in finality by ILE and the Italian Courts.

I think John Kercher is another victim of the prosecution. He hints in his article how he has been played:

In court our lawyer demanded €21m (£18m) in compensation from the defendants, but this was a purely symbolic amount, seen in Italy as a way of demonstrating the severity of the case.​

It's apparent that someone suggested and convinced the Kerchers that they must sue right now, before guilt is established , because it is customary in Italy, and if they don't then who knows, maybe even the defendants will walk free, because the severity of the cause was not demonstrated.

What was the sorry outcome of all this:

We have had to fund everything ourselves. It adds up — about £40,000 so far.​

He has no choice but go deeper into it now. From the list of lies he posted that stinks of Harry Rag it's possible that he's fallen pray and is being played by the most nutjob of the guilters, too.
However this one's source is quite clear - pure Mignini:

There are many more factors, almost 20 in all, among them the suspicion that there may have been something ritualistic about Meredith’s death. The prosecutor was criticised for mentioning this, but she was killed on the eve of the Day of the Dead, November 2. Sollecito was said to have Japanese manga comics that described the rape and killing of female vampires. Meredith had been dressed as a vampire to celebrate Hallowe’en.​

Concluding - I think it's ill advice of dishonest people that contributed to Kerchers suffering and financial loss. It's clear they are being held hostage by those advisors, being persuaded that backing off now would undermine the perceived severity of the cause and maybe even set free the killers.
Blaming Kerchers make no sense because they are kept with a distorted view of the situation.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

errors versus lies

John Kercher is a freelance journalist, therefore, I believe he is more than capable of writing for himself.

Those of you who support Raffaele and Amanda find nothing wrong with their parents public statements because you agree with their point of view, my simple point is that if it is okay for them to speak publicly and question the investigation, evidence analysis and verdict of the trial, why can’t John Kercher write from his own point of view?

What Father would not speak up for his child? How is John Kercher any different than Amanda’s father and Step-father?

CoulsdonUK,

When Edda spoke up for her daughter, "The Machine" posted a list of 18 of her supposed lies at TJfM. This list was filled with twisted words and half- and quarter-truths. Even if Edda Mellas spoke falsely, to accuse her of lying without proof of her intent is out of line. No one is accusing John Kercher of lying--that would be equally out of line. However, when he makes unintentionally misleading statements, he should be corrected--but not corrected in the way that "The Machine" did.

 

[bri1]

CoulsdonUK,

John Kercher has the right to voice his opinion. However, when he writes about contested evidence as if it were undisputed fact, he puts his intellectual opponents in a dilemma. Does one keeps silent and allow possibly misleading statements to go unchallenged, or does one speak out and risk looking callous toward a grieving father? I submit that there is no easy answer.

Exactly. And he's an intelligent man, he knows that he puts anyone contesting the evidence in an impossible position. He shouldn't try and speak to the guilt / innocence question, in public, for now, because by doing so he sets up the following false dichotomy (whether he says this explicitly or not): you're either with us (and already convinced of guilt) or you're against us (if you think they're innocent).
This plays directly into the guilters' hands- they falsely align themselves with Meredith, as if by questioning Amanda and Raff's guilt, one is placing oneself at war with the memory of Meredith.
We are not against Meredith. It is because we are horrified, disgusted, at the depravity of the injustice perpetrated against Meredith, that we want a just outcome here. Those who truly abhor injustice would never try and avenge an injustice by perpetrating another (or being negligent as to whether one is being committed).

 

[Draca]

John Kercher is a freelance journalist, therefore, I believe he is more than capable of writing for himself.

Those of you who support Raffaele and Amanda find nothing wrong with their parents public statements because you agree with their point of view, my simple point is that if it is okay for them to speak publicly and question the investigation, evidence analysis and verdict of the trial, why can’t John Kercher write from his own point of view?

What Father would not speak up for his child? How is John Kercher any different than Amanda’s father and Step-father?

I don't find anything wrong with him speaking in public about his point of view. My point is that when he chooses to do that he also opens himself up very fairly to criticism of that view.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Halides1

When Edda spoke up for her daughter, "The Machine" posted a list of 18 of her supposed lies at TJfM. This list was filled with twisted words and half- and quarter-truths. Even if Edda Mellas spoke falsely, to accuse her of lying without proof of her intent is out of line.

Like you I can only be responsible for what I write, I cannot and do not take responsibility for what others may write. I am tired of this “well they said that, so I am going to say this” justification.

No one is accusing John Kercher of lying--that would be equally out of line. However, when he makes unintentionally misleading statements, he should be corrected--but not corrected in the way that "The Machine" did.

That is one view, another would be to leave the man to grieve in his own way, he cannot influence the outcome of the appeal anymore than any us can.

How is he any different than the Mother of Federico Aldrovandi in his grief?

Why is it that people would point to one grieving parent and show understanding then criticise another for doing the same thing.

 

[colonelhall]

Judging by some of the comments that have been made, I guess people feel that John Kercher has not been following the case and has taken no interest. As a result he needs to rely on others to make up his mind for him. Three articles in three years. Doesn't seem much to me. In fact I am amazed at how reserved he has been all this time.

The Knox family on the other hand. Now let's see..... Has anybody counted the number of weeks that haven't seen them appear on the television?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK wrote:

What Father would not speak up for his child? How is John Kercher any different than Amanda’s father and Step-father?

Any response on the above, I notice it is not being addressed?

 

[lane99]

CoulsdonUK wrote:



Any response on the above, I notice it is not being addressed?

He's different because if anyone questions his point of view, people like "colonelhall" get their knickers in such a twistie that they end up wrapped around their necks.

Whereas Knox's parents are deemed fair game.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

he is taking a position

CoulsdonUK wrote:
Quote:
What Father would not speak up for his child? How is John Kercher any different than Amanda’s father and Step-father?

Any response on the above, I notice it is not being addressed?

CoulsdonUK,

He is doing something other than simply speaking up for his child. Long before the conclusion of the first trial, he and his family made it clear that they believed that Knox and Sollecito were guilty.