Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[pilot padron]

Some of the responses to Mr. Kercher's article that have been posted here can count as the most sickening that I have seen on the internet.

I shall not attempt at refuting some of the claims that have been made. Suffice to say that anybody coming to JREF for information about this case would be equally horrified by these comments.

Absolutely agree wholeheartedly.

This type of inhuman inaccurate and insensitive attack on grieving parents has no place in civilized discourse; especially from those who so often 'argue' here by wrapping themselves in angelic virginal whites while 'arguing' by using simultaneous endless demonizing of PMF.

........all John Kercher can see is lots of pounds, and we use Meredith murder to gain these extra pounds.

But John Kercher it is time to put the greed aside.

Also, those of us who rarely return even to just read here can now sense the death throe desperation and fanatical flurry of fantastically fatalistic hyperbole from the FOAKer Groupies when they are reduced to proffering "arguments" such as this:

I think it's an important answer to pro-guilt posters working on the talking point that Italian courts are as infallible as the Pope and that anyone who says otherwise is some sort of racist lunatic.

The Knox family, however, is fighting for world justice.

When anyone wonders why such a great number of previous contributors to this thread are no longer actively sharing opinions here, and as you say, why so few others come here anymore even for information, just consider the factual content and benefit to the reader of the above "arguments" that indeed require no refutation.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Halides1

Last fall Benjamin Sayagh put out a manuscript arguing the illegality of Amanda's precautionary detention.

Okay what was the outcome?

Those arguments are even stronger for Raffaele. I have previously cited Dan Krane as a source on my claim that electronic data files are released in almost all countries, yet they were not released here.

Do you know whether any of the above forms part of the submitted defence appeal documentation? The context of my questions is Italy not other countries.

If the defense does not have the forensic records, then they cannot prepare a vigorous challenge. The right of discovery should not have been trampled upon in this case, but it was. MOO.

Are you quoting what happens in other Italian murder cases, if so which ones? Are you stating that there is evidence that Amanda and or Raffaele are being treated differently, if so compared to what murder cases in Italy?

 

[bri1]

John Kercher

Zeb / Justinian don't speak for all of us who believe in innocence. I don't think the Kerchers give a damn about money except as a way of making the people responsible for Mez's murder pay.
However, I think Maresca cares very much. He's the greedy, self-serving, exploitative individual here (IMO). The worst the Kercher's have done is accept a load of baloney that a lot of others (who don't have the excuse of that kind of emotional pain clouding their judgement to blame) have also accepted.
Having said that, it's irrational (if JK has really done so) to intimate that it's Amanda's (or Raffaele's) fault that the Italian justice system moves so slowly... I wonder if Maresca has explained to the Kerchers that the 'appeal' in Italy is more part of the process than in the UK (where the 'first' court makes a judgement that is final except in very unusual circumstances), and that we are in a position where this kind of definitive judgement has not occurred almost 3.5 years after the crime?
But again, given the circumstances, we can 'forgive' such irrationality. I don't think I'd give the Kerchers should be given a free pass on anything they might say or do,and I do think that it's prejudicial for John Kercher to make the public statements he has on guilt / innocence, and not in the best interests of justice, which should be the overriding interests of the Kerchers. But again, I think that a lot of this is due to Maresca, whose interest is the civil case, not criminal justice- which is why Maresca and the civil case shouldn't be anywhere near the criminal trial, and any civil cases should have waited until after the appeal.

 

[Alt+F4]

Okay what was the outcome?

It was an unpublished school paper that got many of the many basics facts of the case wrong, mispelled the names of some of the key people, and called RS "handsome" and stated that as a pertinent legal fact.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

hearing the beat of a different drummer was fine for Thoreau

Halides1



Okay what was the outcome?



Do you know whether any of the above forms part of the submitted defence appeal documentation? The context of my questions is Italy not other countries.



Are you quoting what happens in other Italian murder cases, if so which ones? Are you stating that there is evidence that Amanda and or Raffaele are being treated differently, if so compared to what murder cases in Italy?

CoulsdonUK,

If Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito are found innocent, I would expect that they would take their case concerning precautionary detention to the EHRC. With respect to the forensic files, one would have to know what the standard is in Italy, and I am not making that claim. If Italy is out of step with the rest of the world with respect to the electronic data files and their release, then on this issue, Italy needs to change, not the rest of the world. The science of DNA profiling does not change from one jurisdiction to the next, and a strong consensus on this issue has long been apparent in the scientific community. MOO.

 

[Kaosium]

This would explain partly why he needs Amanda and especially Raffaele to be guilty so badly. Maybe even to the point of refusing to look at the rather clear evidence. It doesn't explain why Rudy Guede is always an afterthought, secondary perpetrator in his articles. It doesn't hurt Raffaele's chances of being convicted to condemn Rudy Guede's actions.

I suspect he believes something akin to this. Colonel Garofano minimizes Guede's involvement and places responsibility on Amanda Knox--though his 'analysis' doesn't even bother addressing the murder room. I would be interested to know if Colonel Garofano and Maresca have worked together before...

 

[Alt+F4]

I do think that it's prejudicial for John Kercher to make the public statements he has on guilt / innocence, and not in the best interests of justice, which should be the overriding interests of the Kerchers.

Then the same should apply to Candace Dempsey, Bruce Fisher and Mark Waterbury who all wrote pro-innocence books on the case (available on Amazon!).

But again, I think that a lot of this is due to Maresca, whose interest is the civil case, not criminal justice- which is why Maresca and the civil case shouldn't be anywhere near the criminal trial, and any civil cases should have waited until after the appeal.

Why is Maresca interested in the civil case when those who could be sued have no money? I've seen no evidence that either RS or AK has any substantial money in their own names.

 

[Justinian2]

Then the same should apply to Candace Dempsey, Bruce Fisher and Mark Waterbury who all wrote pro-innocence books on the case (available on Amazon!).
Why is Maresca interested in the civil case when those who could be sued have no money? I've seen no evidence that either RS or AK has any substantial money in their own names.

You're equating Kerchers' few paragraphs to the books of Candace Dempsey, Bruce Fisher and Mark Waterbury?

How many chapters of those books have you read?

Excluding Kerchers appeals to sympathy and his eulogy of his daughter, what remains but opinions? Innocent people shouldn't be convicted for any of those things.

Are there some facts in his letter that you think are particularly significant that should be discussed?

 

[babycondor]

Are you stating that there is evidence that Amanda and or Raffaele are being treated differently, if so compared to what murder cases in Italy?

Excuse me but I don't think anyone is claiming Amanda and Raffaele's case was treated differently than other murder cases in Italy. The claim (it seems to me) is that there are aspects of the Italian criminal justice system that are in need of reform, and this case highlights a number of them.

 

[Kaosium]

I see it as desperation. It's pretty apparent that AK and RS will lose their appeal and lashing out at the Kerchers is the only way some people can handle it.

I read it differently. It is pretty apparent to me that that Amanda Knox will win her appeal and those who prematurely adjudged her guilty are lashing out at her. This would be the third article in as many months written by John Kercher fixating blame on Amanda Knox, the second to include a litany of 'evidence' that could have been written by Harry Rag.

John Kercher seems to be painting himself into a corner. He's going to be in a pretty piss-poor moral position when Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are exonerated, his actions from the beginning subject to scrutiny. I think it another failing of the Italian system that it invested him in the outcome of what should have been an objective inquiry into whether Rafffaele and Amanda had anything to do with his daughter's death. I have read at both IIP and PMF that Maresca was provided to the Kercher family, paid for by the Italian Courts.

So from the beginning he's had Mignini and Maresca telling him Amanda Knox is guilty, Massei concurs and he's now invested in the outcome, which in the end might just make him another victim of this tragedy, perpetuated in the first instance by Rudy Guede and in finality by ILE and the Italian Courts.

 

[zeb]

Colonelhall
The facts are in.
Sorry that you find that the people are saying that AK and RC are nothing to do with this crime are sick.
By the way do I buy a glass of wine that is stuck on your head from tesco or are you up market like should I go to spar

 

[Chris_Halkides]

deeds

It was an unpublished school paper that got many of the many basics facts of the case wrong, mispelled the names of some of the key people, and called RS "handsome" and stated that as a pertinent legal fact.

Alt+F4,

This is a superficial and misleading analysis of the manuscript. Mr. Sayagh passed his bar exam some time ago, and (to the best of my knowledge) was sworn into the bar within the last couple of months. One fact that I recall that he got wrong was the date of the arrest, which he had as 6 November in some places and 7 November in others. Errors of this sort do not detract from the legal analysis, which you have not addressed.

With respect to Mr. Sollecito, it has already been discussed here that he inherited property from his mother worth millions of euros. I doubt than any of us is in a position to provide the property deed(s).

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Excuse me but I don't think anyone is claiming Amanda and Raffaele's case was treated differently than other murder cases in Italy. The claim (it seems to me) is that there are aspects of the Italian criminal justice system that are in need of reform, and this case highlights a number of them.

Surely the only the way make that point would be to demonstrate that there are a number murder cases? No one expected America to overturn its justice system because of the verdict in the OJ Simpson trial! Reform will not take place because of this one case.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Must admit I am taken aback that a number of people give the impression that John Kercher has no right to voice his opinion, that somehow it is acceptable for Amanda’s family to appear on TV and in the newspaper media speaking about their point of view of the case, discuss their interpretation of evidence or events but the murder victim’s family should remain silent, this is absurd!

It comes across as though the Kercher Family and Meredith in particular are responsible for ruining Amanda and Raffaele lives.

 

[Justinian2]

One of John Kercher's articles follows.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...ate-attack-cult-Foxy-Knoxy.html#ixzz173syhG3q

I feel for his agony, but his agony has no bearing on the factual guilt or innocence of anyone. The emotion should be only directed towards Guede.

In fact, it is hypocritical of him to spout off about the other probable victim families: the Knox family and the family of Raffaele.

Is there anything in John Kercher's articles that don't eulogize his daughter or express mere opinions?

Remember that my viewpoint is that of someone that thinks that the evidence shows that AK and RS are 100% not guilty.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

no easy answers

Must admit I am taken aback that a number of people give the impression that John Kercher has no right to voice his opinion, that somehow it is acceptable for Amanda’s family to appear on TV and in the newspaper media speaking about their point of view of the case, discuss their interpretation of evidence or events but the murder victim’s family should remain silent, this is absurd!

It comes across as though the Kercher Family and Meredith in particular are responsible for ruining Amanda and Raffaele lives.

CoulsdonUK,

John Kercher has the right to voice his opinion. However, when he writes about contested evidence as if it were undisputed fact, he puts his intellectual opponents in a dilemma. Does one keeps silent and allow possibly misleading statements to go unchallenged, or does one speak out and risk looking callous toward a grieving father? I submit that there is no easy answer.

 

[zeb]

Bri1
I will agree with you on the first fact, I , yes i will agree with you.
I ask yet again who is paying for Mr money?
Maybe Rose M can find out , she very good at this short of thing

 

[CoulsdonUK]

One of John Kercher's articles follows.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...ate-attack-cult-Foxy-Knoxy.html#ixzz173syhG3q

I feel for his agony, but his agony has no bearing on the factual guilt or innocence of anyone. The emotion should be only directed towards Guede.

In fact, it is hypocritical of him to spout off about the other probable victim families: the Knox family and the family of Raffaele.

Is there anything in John Kercher's articles that don't eulogize his daughter or express mere opinions?

Remember that my viewpoint is that of someone that thinks that the evidence shows that AK and RS are 100% not guilty.

As I believe you know the SC ruled that Guede and unnamed others were responsible for Meredith murder, it is yet to be determined who the unnamed others are. In addition, Guede has nothing to do with Raffaele and Amanda’s appeal or have I got this wrong?

 

[Kaosium]

Must admit I am taken aback that a number of people give the impression that John Kercher has no right to voice his opinion, that somehow it is acceptable for Amanda’s family to appear on TV and in the newspaper media speaking about their point of view of the case, discuss their interpretation of evidence or events but the murder victim’s family should remain silent, this is absurd!

It comes across as though the Kercher Family and Meredith in particular are responsible for ruining Amanda and Raffaele lives.

Amanda Knox is still considered innocent under Italian law. The case against her is considered laughable by many notables, which is the reason anyone is listening to her parents about it. That's what gets them coverage, not them hiring a PR firm to deal with all the press requests. Naturally they are willing to do whatever it takes to get their innocent kid out of jail, what kind of parents would they be if they did not?

A victim does not have the right to be a victimizer. Maresca is working to put Amanda Knox's parents in jail and take their money, they are not the aggressors here..

 

[babycondor]

Surely the only the way make that point would be to demonstrate that there are a number murder cases? No one expected America to overturn its justice system because of the verdict in the OJ Simpson trial! Reform will not take place because of this one case.

Kaosium and others have offered you evidence that the Italian system has been criticized by international groups such as Amnesty International and the ECHR for its shortcomings. These views aren't based on the Kercher murder case, but on a body of cases and a pattern of a alleged abuses.

In response, you protested that Amnesty International was "not an internationally binding body," and "the link points to general findings covering 2000 – 2006 which was before Meredith was murdered." In other words, when evidence was offered that refuted your position, you quibbled and moved the goalposts.