Merged "Iron-rich spheres" - scienctific explanation?

[The Almond]

How did those microspheres become trapped in the concrete in the first place?

Fe microspheres are a common component in fly ash, which is a by product of coal combustion. Most fly ash particles are glassy alumina silicates, and they will react with excess portlandite in hardened cement paste to produce CSH gel. A small portion of fly ash, which contains too much iron to be reactive, will do nothing but sit there for eons. These iron microspheres are just that.

Beyond that, iron microspheres are common components of all dust and ash samples. Wood ash, rice husk ash, and even ash from the combustion of diesel fuel will contain some of these iron rich particles. They are ubiquitous in nature.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

How did those microspheres become trapped in the concrete in the first place?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187515 (see posts 28 and 35).

The iron comes from iron compounds in the plant and animal tissues from which coal forms. It becomes microspheres when the coal is burned. Fly ash, the ash from coal files, is used as an ingredient in concrete.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Myriad is correct. Use of combusted material has been known about and in use since the Roman times. In the US, power plant fly ash was first used during dam construction in the 1920s (as an aside: Anyone else have the problem of wanting to type "damn" every time you refer to a large, concrete structure used to hold back water? ). The use of fly ash in concrete/cement manufacture is ubiquitous, and because it's a product of coal combustion, the presence of microspheres in fly ash is also ubiquitous.

Note that this would merely be one, single source. There would be many others. You could also propose that other various combustions - diesel and gas engines, for example - as well as steel friction surfaces (any construction machinery, car and truck brake surfaces, etc.) could have been sources of microspheres, although those sources would presumably be dwarfed by the amount present in concrete.

I've occasionally suspected that the microspheres reported in the RJ Lee report were indeed from concrete, yet the ones observed by Jones, Harrit, et. al. were likely from friction surfaces or diesel engine combustion. Why? Because if you presume that the red/gray chips that were analyzed were indeed from the columns, then those columns would've only been exposed during construction, and would've been painted at that time too. It's simply more reasonable, in my mind, to propose that any spheres trapped in the paint came from sources like the diesel engines and construction equipment friction surfaces than from the pouring concrete at that time, since the concrete's fraction of microspheres would've been contained. But this is supposition, and I don't really know how to distinguish between the two sources, let alone figure out if there could have been any more sources I haven't thought of. Presumably their composition would be slightly different, but that's something that I don't know at the moment. I'll let all of the rest of you chew on that and see if anything interesting can be determined from that hypothesis.

 

[WildCat]

Spherical IRON Metallic Particles in the 911 WTC Dust Found By the CRIMINAL FORENSICS RJ Lee Group :

The Deutsche Bank building, which was right next to the Twin Towers, was heavily contaminated by dust produced by their destruction. But Deutsche Bank's... insurance company refused to pay for the clean-up, claiming that this dust had not resulted from the destruction of the WTC. So Deutsche Bank hired the RJ Lee Group to do a study, which showed that the dust in the Deutsche Bank was WTC dust, which had a unique signature. Part of this signature was "Spherical iron . . . particles."20 This meant, the RJ Lee Group said, that iron had "melted during the 911 WTC Event, producing Spherical metallic iron particles."21 The study even showed that, whereas iron particles constitute only 0.04 percent of normal building dust, they constituted almost 6 percent of WTC Dust – meaning almost 150 times as much as normal,

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2011/03/05/the-mysterious-collapse-of-wtc-7/

http://www.rjlg.com/litigation-services/criminal-forensics.aspx

Cool story.

 

[Myriad]

D'oh! I'm not even sure what "coal files" are. But I think it's clear from context I meant "coal fires."

 

[The Almond]

D'oh! I'm not even sure what "coal files" are. But I think it's clear from context I meant "coal fires."

Were one to burn coal flies, one would still probably get iron microspheres.

 

[WildCat]

In other news, truthers have found water at the bottom of the Hudson River, thus proving 9/11 was an inside job.

 

[Senenmut]

Fe microspheres are a common component in fly ash, which is a by product of coal combustion. Most fly ash particles are glassy alumina silicates, and they will react with excess portlandite in hardened cement paste to produce CSH gel. A small portion of fly ash, which contains too much iron to be reactive, will do nothing but sit there for eons. These iron microspheres are just that.

Beyond that, iron microspheres are common components of all dust and ash samples. Wood ash, rice husk ash, and even ash from the combustion of diesel fuel will contain some of these iron rich particles. They are ubiquitous in nature.

what makes you think iron microspheres were in the wtc concrete. jones crushed some up and low and behold, no iron microspheres. plus check out this article:

"Additional barriers deal with building codes and the need to adhere to existing standards. Years of effort and very aggressive champions are always needed to get a new material into common use. As an example, Hooper discussed the difficulty in persuading building officials to accept fly-ash residue from coal burning as a component in concrete. Adding fly ash makes concrete a more environmentally friendly material, but required federal legislation to overcome skeptics."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5348/is_200204/ai_n21311364/

 

[Senenmut]

to the almond...we already had this discussion before.

remember-
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140017&highlight=particle+atlas&page=18

 

[Thunder]

In other news, truthers have found water at the bottom of the Hudson River, thus proving 9/11 was an inside job.

 

[The Almond]

what makes you think iron microspheres were in the wtc concrete. jones crushed some up and low and behold, no iron microspheres. plus check out this article:

"Additional barriers deal with building codes and the need to adhere to existing standards. Years of effort and very aggressive champions are always needed to get a new material into common use. As an example, Hooper discussed the difficulty in persuading building officials to accept fly-ash residue from coal burning as a component in concrete. Adding fly ash makes concrete a more environmentally friendly material, but required federal legislation to overcome skeptics."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5348/is_200204/ai_n21311364/

Yes, we did have this argument. You keep posting this opinion piece, which largely ignores that fly ash has been used in concrete since the building of the Hoover and Crazy horse dams. You also largely missed the point that there are many sources for iron microspheres, and claiming that they're only produced in thermite reactions is Steven Jones levels of stupid.

Jones has proven himself to be largely incompetent when it comes to any form of microanalysis. The fact that he didn't find iron microspheres in his crushed section indicates to me that they were there in large, obvious quantities.

Let me summarize this for the hundredth time on these forums:

1) Iron microspheres are ubiquitous in industrial environments, especially large, old cities.

2) Iron microspheres are routinely produced in wood fires by the combustion of organic material.

3) Iron microspheres are ubiquitous in fly ash, and all modern concrete is produced using some form of supplementary material, like fly ash.

There is no useful information to be gained by qualitatively identifying the presence of iron microspheres.

 

[Senenmut]

Yes, we did have this argument. You keep posting this opinion piece, which largely ignores that fly ash has been used in concrete since the building of the Hoover and Crazy horse dams. You also largely missed the point that there are many sources for iron microspheres, and claiming that they're only produced in thermite reactions is Steven Jones levels of stupid.

Jones has proven himself to be largely incompetent when it comes to any form of microanalysis. The fact that he didn't find iron microspheres in his crushed section indicates to me that they were there in large, obvious quantities.

Let me summarize this for the hundredth time on these forums:

1) Iron microspheres are ubiquitous in industrial environments, especially large, old cities.

2) Iron microspheres are routinely produced in wood fires by the combustion of organic material.

3) Iron microspheres are ubiquitous in fly ash, and all modern concrete is produced using some form of supplementary material, like fly ash.

There is no useful information to be gained by qualitatively identifying the presence of iron microspheres.

there is no opinion here. they were NOT in the concrete. remember! from a previous quote:

What's further, fly ash would be mixed in with the cement phases, not in with the aggregate. The cement is a heterogeneous mix of at least 5 hydration products (CSH, alumina hydrate, ferrite hydrate, ettringite and portlandite). In order to identify iron rich microspheres, we would need far greater pixel resolution and an image focused mostly on the cement paste.

that is how they identified the stuff as concrete:
"Particles identifiable as concrete in WTC dust are those constituting the Portland cement component."
so click on the above links and see if ya see any fly ash in the 5, 10, 100 micron range!!

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1165/graphics/CONCRETE-02-IMAGE.jpg

10 microns
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1165/graphics/CONCRETE-03-IMAGE.jpg

100 microns
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1165/graphics/CONCRETE-05-IMAGE.jpg

 

[The Almond]

there is no opinion here.

Can you please understand this very simple idea: Iron microspheres are ubiquitous in industrialized environments. They are a normal product of fire, they are a normal component of dust, they are a normal component of ash. If Jones et al want to show that the iron microspheres are important, they first need to eliminate the banal sources of them.

Concrete, when pulverized, will release particles. The CSH, calcite and amorphous silicates are easy to identify as concrete and only concrete products. Iron microspheres contained in fly ash are indistinguishable from those supplied by other sources. The iron microspheres are nonreactive in concrete, they leave the matrix in much the same shape they entered it.

 

[Senenmut]

Yes, we did have this argument. You keep posting this opinion piece, which largely ignores that fly ash has been used in concrete since the building of the Hoover and Crazy horse dams. You also largely missed the point that there are many sources for iron microspheres, and claiming that they're only produced in thermite reactions is Steven Jones levels of stupid.

Jones has proven himself to be largely incompetent when it comes to any form of microanalysis. The fact that he didn't find iron microspheres in his crushed section indicates to me that they were there in large, obvious quantities.

Let me summarize this for the hundredth time on these forums:

1) Iron microspheres are ubiquitous in industrial environments, especially large, old cities.

2) Iron microspheres are routinely produced in wood fires by the combustion of organic material.

3) Iron microspheres are ubiquitous in fly ash, and all modern concrete is produced using some form of supplementary material, like fly ash.

There is no useful information to be gained by qualitatively identifying the presence of iron microspheres.

they are also produced by those red grey chips:
sunstealer quote from another thread:
"Nanothermite is only using a smaller particle size. Nano does not mean magic or super-duper mmmkay.

Fe2O3 + 2Al → 2Fe + Al2O3 + heat

The waste product is Fe and Al2O3 - I suggest you learn some basic chemistry."


thanks to sunstealer for showing everyone that this iron microsphere was made from a thermitic reaction!!

and this is what jones said about those pesky iron microspheres produced by those red grey chips when questioned by frank greening:

prof jones: "Dr. Farrer and Danny and I have looked at many of these post-DSC spheres, many do NOT contain Al. See for example Fig 21 in our paper:

Look again at the data (above) -- there is no Al in evidence. Furthermore, the amounts of Si and Ca and especially S here is trivial. The melting points of iron and of iron oxide are both above 1200 C, yet the DSC reached only 700 C, insufficient to cause melting of iron or iron oxide."

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...y+and+I+have+looked"&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us[/QUOTE]

 

[Senenmut]

Can you please understand this very simple idea: Iron microspheres are ubiquitous in industrialized environments. They are a normal product of fire, they are a normal component of dust, they are a normal component of ash. If Jones et al want to show that the iron microspheres are important, they first need to eliminate the banal sources of them.

Concrete, when pulverized, will release particles. The CSH, calcite and amorphous silicates are easy to identify as concrete and only concrete products. Iron microspheres contained in fly ash are indistinguishable from those supplied by other sources. The iron microspheres are nonreactive in concrete, they leave the matrix in much the same shape they entered it.

so are ya saying they WERE in the concrete??

 

[The Almond]

they are also produced by those red grey chips:

Incorrect. They were present in the red chips to begin with. Iron oxide is used as a pigment.

 

[Senenmut]

Incorrect. They were present in the red chips to begin with. Iron oxide is used as a pigment.

hahaha.....man you are something else. are you trying to say they use iron microspheres (see fig 21 in the active thermitic paper) as a pigment? where do ya see iron microspheres in the red grey chips pre ignition?

 

[The Almond]

so are ya saying they WERE in the concrete??

I spent the last 10 minutes trying to decide if this was just trolling. Let me see if I can be anymore obvious about this. I will use small words and short sentences to improve reading comprehension.

Concrete is complex. Fly ash has many different particle compositions. When fly ash and concrete are mixed together, reactions happen. Iron microspheres in fly ash are not part of the concrete reaction. When pulverized, concrete will release those iron microspheres. Those iron microspheres are not different from other iron microspheres. The iron microspheres from building fires are the same as those from concrete. The iron microspheres from other combustion reactions are the same as those from concrete.

RJ Lee is not magic. They cannot talk to the particles and say, "Where did you come from little particle?" They know a particle comes from concrete because they know the reactions that happen. When they see iron microspheres, the don't say, "Oh my! Iron microspheres never happen! Unicorns must have pooped them out!" They also don't say, "Iron microspheres only come from fire, so they can't come from concrete." RJ Lee group is smart! They know that iron microspheres come from lots of places, and it's hard to tell where they came from.

Steven Jones is not very smart at all. He sees microspheres and say, "Only thermite makes these!" Bad Steven Jones! Bad, bad, bad! Steven Jones should go back to failing at cold fusion.

Fly ash is in concrete.
Fly ash has iron microspheres.
Ash from wood fires has iron microspheres.
Iron microspheres are also found in dust, especially in urban environments.
Iron microspheres come from many places.
Iron microspheres do not only come from concrete.
Iron microspheres do not only come from thermite.
Iron microspheres can come from concrete.
Iron microspheres can come from thermite.

 

[The Almond]

hahaha.....man you are something else. are you trying to say they use iron microspheres (see fig 21 in the active thermitic paper) as a pigment? where do ya see iron microspheres in the red grey chips pre ignition?

Sunstealer has done an excellent job in this thread showing that the red chips were indeed the anti-corrosive primer painted onto the steel beams. That primer is known to contain iron microspheres as a pigment. See NCSTAR 1-3C appendix D.

 

[Senenmut]

I spent the last 10 minutes trying to decide if this was just trolling.

you spent the last 10 mins trying to figure out how to spin it!!

ILet me see if I can be anymore obvious about this. I will use small words and short sentences to improve reading comprehension.

Concrete is complex. Fly ash has many different particle compositions. When fly ash and concrete are mixed together, reactions happen. Iron microspheres in fly ash are not part of the concrete reaction. When pulverized, concrete will release those iron microspheres. Those iron microspheres are not different from other iron microspheres. The iron microspheres from building fires are the same as those from concrete. The iron microspheres from other combustion reactions are the same as those from concrete.

are ya saying its in the concrete from the wtc? or are you just blowing smoke?

RJ Lee is not magic. They cannot talk to the particles and say, "Where did you come from little particle?" They know a particle comes from concrete because they know the reactions that happen. When they see iron microspheres, the don't say, "Oh my! Iron microspheres never happen! Unicorns must have pooped them out!" They also don't say, "Iron microspheres only come from fire, so they can't come from concrete." RJ Lee group is smart! They know that iron microspheres come from lots of places, and it's hard to tell where they came from.

are ya still stating that it WAS in the concrete?

Steven Jones is not very smart at all. He sees microspheres and say, "Only thermite makes these!" Bad Steven Jones! Bad, bad, bad! Steven Jones should go back to failing at cold fusion.

but they are produced by those red grey chips now arent they!!

Fly ash is in concrete.

not all concrete.

Fly ash has iron microspheres.

true but fly ash was not used in the concrete in the wtc.

Ash from wood fires has iron microspheres.

are they created via surface tension like the rj lee report told us how the iron microspheres were created:
"Exposure of phases to high heat results in the formation of spherical particles due to surface tension.
Figure 21 and Figure 22 show a spherical iron particle resulting from the
melting of iron (or steel)."

Iron microspheres are also found in dust, especially in urban environments.

or they came from the destruction of the wtc considering the rj lee report makes the distinction between wtc dust and background building dust.

Iron microspheres come from many places.

such as from the ignition of those red grey chips.

Iron microspheres do not only come from concrete.

definately not from wtc building concrete!!

Iron microspheres do not only come from thermite.

or nanothermite or superdupper thermite....

Iron microspheres can come from concrete.

but not from wtc building concrete b/c it wasnt there.

Iron microspheres can come from thermite.

your logic is superdupper!!

 

[Senenmut]

Sunstealer has done an excellent job in this thread showing that the red chips were indeed the anti-corrosive primer painted onto the steel beams. That primer is known to contain iron microspheres as a pigment. See NCSTAR 1-3C appendix D.

only the red grey chips DO NOT contain iron microspheres PRE IGNITION!!! get with the program almond!!