Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Justinian2]

I assume the additional information you are providing is from another source as it did not appear in the link you provided.

I saw the story on TV before I posted. Sorry that the link didn't provide all the details.

 

[RoseMontague]

Extract from John Kercher article:

He also talked a good bit about the evidence this time, how solid it was, how great Stefanoni is, and what a terrific report that Massei put together. If I had read that part of the article without knowing who wrote it I would have picked a few of the regulars at PMF.

 

[Kaosium]

Thank you, I kind of knew you would come back with more information.

It's easy to find on this subject. I just typed a few terms into google and up it pops.

I agree the Italian judicial system is slow. However, the link points to general findings covering 2000 – 2006 which was before Meredith was murdered.

Which means...what? Are you supposing they waved a magic wand and all of a sudden the structural flaws in the system disappeared and it stopped producing as many unfair trials? The first link I posted was from this past year, and again Italy was by far and away the worst offender amongst western democracies' judicial systems, more comparable to the heirs of Byzantium, which I find kinda ironic. Are you suggesting the composition of those offenses changed in the interim? What would cause you to draw that conclusion?

In addition, ECHR has not and cannot make a ruling on a specific case until the judicial process has been fully exhausted in a member state.

Let us hope this case doesn't get that far. If it doesn't, it would seem best for everyone involved in that system if that is a result of the attention this case attracted and not because it isn't one of the most egregious examples produced by a decaying institution.

As for whether their trial was fair:

Was the collection and processing of evidence different in some way than other murder cases in Italy at the time?

Are you and others stating that this trial in particular is different in its implementation from other murder cases in Italy?

Wouldn't you hope so? You don't want to talk about the evidence, however you've participated in this discussion going back to the cartwheels thread thus you must have come across the links to the video of the collection of the bra clasp and the conditions which caused the police to go racing back out to the crime scene 46 days later. Doesn't that kind of make you wonder? If it doesn't, it should. I personally didn't even believe it when I first came across that. It became more believable when I started finding out more about the tendency of the Italian system towards injustices.

For example in the context of a murder case, was a non Italian or non EU citizen allowed house arrest or allowed to leave Italy until their trial?

I think in this case the courts knew they had to keep them locked up because they couldn't have them free to answer questions about what happened, and they knew if Amanda and Raffaele fled no one would extradite them, as that requires evidence, and the last thing they wanted was an official review of the 'evidence' collected against Raffaele and Amanda by a foreign court.

Difficult questions to answer but this would be the only way of demonstrating that their treatment was in some way different to other comparable murder cases.

It is my hope that this case is merely an egregious example of what can happen in Italy, and that in part is due to a lack of oversight of police and a systemically dysfunctional court system in a transition phase.

 

[Kaosium]

And?

It suggests that perhaps there is a problem in Italy that needs to be addressed.
This case might illustrate that in a microcosm.

Maybe... I don't think you quoting Berlusconi is adding any weight to that idea though.

Whatever you may think about that politician personally, the fact he would run on it in a campaign and his party re-elected the idea must not be considered overly untoward amongst Italian voters.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

And?

Maybe... I don't think you quoting Berlusconi is adding any weight to that idea though.

I think it's an important answer to pro-guilt posters working on the talking point that Italian courts are as infallible as the Pope and that anyone who says otherwise is some sort of racist lunatic.

 

[Kaosium]

I think every judicial system needs some reforms, some more than others. But to call Italy "the new Soviet Union", is ridiculous and insulting to those who were the victims of the Soviet government, a government that butchered tens of millions.

What's Frank gonna say next, that Mignini is the next Stalin?

I think that's just Frank being melodramatic about his upcoming calunnia charge. Perhaps he's been watching too much Lifetime lately.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

international reputation

He also talked a good bit about the evidence this time, how solid it was, how great Stefanoni is, and what a terrific report that Massei put together. If I had read that part of the article without knowing who wrote it I would have picked a few of the regulars at PMF.

RoseMontague,

He said that Dr. Stefanoni had a great international reputation, but he did not explain how he drew this conclusion. In the first iteration of this thread, Fiona suggested the same thing on the basis of Dr. Stefanoni's identifying tsunami victims, possibly in the great tsunami of 2004. Although we are all grateful for her work, one obtains an international scientific reputation by writing textbooks and/or research articles, at least some of which should be peer-reviewed.

 

[Draca]

John Kercher working with TJMK ?

He also talked a good bit about the evidence this time, how solid it was, how great Stefanoni is, and what a terrific report that Massei put together. If I had read that part of the article without knowing who wrote it I would have picked a few of the regulars at PMF.

Agreed Rose,

I actually think there is no way the Colpevolisti were not working with John Kercher on this article and the Mirror article before that. The evidence portion sounds exactly like them. Why would JK work with them? Is he not able to summarize why he thinks AK and RS are guilty on his own?

And then the complaint about not receiving money from the UK govt. - my my. Is that really even done? I can't imagine the US govt. paying for the expenses of a family to travel to another country for a trial. Why is that the governments responsibility?

He seems to blame Amanda Knox for her celebrity status, which she has had zero control over.

What I understand least of all is why more of his anger isn't directed toward Rudy Guede. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[lane99]

...What I understand least of all is why more of his anger isn't directed toward Rudy Guede. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Not difficult to understand, I'd say.

Other than the "moderator" at that anti-Knox hate site, I haven't seen many people trying to portray Rudy Guede as somehow a victim in this case.

But, needless to say, there are many people expressing the opinion that Knox and the boyfriend are also victims here.

It's easy to imagine that would rankle a parent who believes those two were actually involved in the murder of his daughter.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

What I understand least of all is why more of his anger isn't directed toward Rudy Guede. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Guede's broke.

Raffaele's not.

 

[Draca]

Rudy Guede - and some other guy

Not difficult to understand, I'd say.

Other than the "moderator" at that anti-Knox hate site, I haven't seen many people trying to portray Rudy Guede as somehow a victim in this case.

But, needless to say, there are many people expressing the opinion that Knox and the boyfriend are also victims here.

It's easy to imagine that would rankle a parent who believes those two were actually involved in the murder of his daughter.

In his first article in the Daily Mail he didn't even mention his name though. I was just - and another guy already sentenced. (or something similar - the article was edited since first published). Don't you find it outrageous that the man who killed his daughter is just - some other guy - in this?

As someone who sees clearly that Rudy Guede is solely responsible I find it outrageous. This is the man who slit his daughter's throat and raped her while she aspirated blood and suffocated to death on that very blood ! I find it so upsetting that he has this wrath against Amanda Knox, who I know did nothing and doesn't even mention her real killer by name. I don't get it. Even if he just thinks RG was just one of the three, shouldn't he have equal anger against him. All his anger seems directed toward Amanda Knox.

Now that he has published three articles he doesn't get a pass as the grieving father. He is publishing that AK and RS are guilty with a TJMK/PMF guilt list.

 

[Draca]

Guede's broke - Raffaele's not

Guede's broke.

Raffaele's not.

This would explain partly why he needs Amanda and especially Raffaele to be guilty so badly. Maybe even to the point of refusing to look at the rather clear evidence. It doesn't explain why Rudy Guede is always an afterthought, secondary perpetrator in his articles. It doesn't hurt Raffaele's chances of being convicted to condemn Rudy Guede's actions.

 

[moodstream]

This would explain partly why he needs Amanda and especially Raffaele to be guilty so badly. Maybe even to the point of refusing to look at the rather clear evidence. It doesn't explain why Rudy Guede is always an afterthought, secondary perpetrator in his articles. It doesn't hurt Raffaele's chances of being convicted to condemn Rudy Guede's actions.

These articles by John Kercher seem to surface when Knox appears in court. Personally I suspect the letters are orchestrated by Francesco Maresca for the purpose of winning sympathy for Mr Kercher at Knox and Sollecito’s expense. I am guessing that Mr Kercher supplies a certain amount of the material ( e.g. the effect the crime has had on him and his family) and he leaves the rest to Maresca. Mr Kercher signs off on the result. I could be wrong. I doubt I am wrong in thinking that Mr Maresca has his eye on the Sollecito family fortune.

 

[zeb]

John Kercher will not look at the facts of this case, as pointed out that Rudy is broke, but raffaele father has money.
This alones puts one motive thing out to grass, as raffaele was out to show Amanda a nice time this would cost money, as his father knew that his son had new love in his life,
He would expect a phone call asking for money.
Amanda also had money in the bank and she was working in a local bar, so she did not need any money if she did a phone call home, and the money would be on it,s way.
Mr Maresca is not acting on behalf of the Kercher family, but on his own behalf and his bank account.
As he is still being hired by the Kercher family he has every right to be in court, and I must point out that the Kercher family was only in court for the first day then returned on the last day of the trail.
If it was my love one who was murder, I would have been in court every day, to learn the facts.
And wrighting in the D Mail is not the right way to respect Meredith a Love one and a very mist one.

 

[Amazer]

I think it's an important answer to pro-guilt posters working on the talking point that Italian courts are as infallible as the Pope and that anyone who says otherwise is some sort of racist lunatic.

Come across many (any?) posters like that here? Or are said posters a sad figment of your imagination?

 

[Amazer]

Guede's broke.

Raffaele's not.

Alternatively...

No one is idolizing Rudy like they are Amanda and Raffaele...

Just saying.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

scared

Alternatively...

No one is idolizing Rudy like they are Amanda and Raffaele...

Just saying.

Amazer,

I am not sure anyone who is idolizing them. Personally, I think that they acted like scared, dumb (naive) adolescents on 5 November 2007, but that is to be expected.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

It's easy to find on this subject. I just typed a few terms into google and up it pops.



Which means...what? Are you supposing they waved a magic wand and all of a sudden the structural flaws in the system disappeared and it stopped producing as many unfair trials? The first link I posted was from this past year, and again Italy was by far and away the worst offender amongst western democracies' judicial systems, more comparable to the heirs of Byzantium, which I find kinda ironic. Are you suggesting the composition of those offenses changed in the interim? What would cause you to draw that conclusion?




Let us hope this case doesn't get that far. If it doesn't, it would seem best for everyone involved in that system if that is a result of the attention this case attracted and not because it isn't one of the most egregious examples produced by a decaying institution.



Wouldn't you hope so? You don't want to talk about the evidence, however you've participated in this discussion going back to the cartwheels thread thus you must have come across the links to the video of the collection of the bra clasp and the conditions which caused the police to go racing back out to the crime scene 46 days later. Doesn't that kind of make you wonder? If it doesn't, it should. I personally didn't even believe it when I first came across that. It became more believable when I started finding out more about the tendency of the Italian system towards injustices.






I think in this case the courts knew they had to keep them locked up because they couldn't have them free to answer questions about what happened, and they knew if Amanda and Raffaele fled no one would extradite them, as that requires evidence, and the last thing they wanted was an official review of the 'evidence' collected against Raffaele and Amanda by a foreign court.



It is my hope that this case is merely an egregious example of what can happen in Italy, and that in part is due to a lack of oversight of police and a systemically dysfunctional court system in a transition phase.

The questions I asked related to whether this case in particular was different during the investigation, evidence analysis, trial and current appeal. In short can you and others point to other cases that demonstrate that Raffaele and Amanda have been treated differently?

I prefer to discuss what is happening during the appeal as this seems relevant rather than rehashing the trial.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

He also talked a good bit about the evidence this time, how solid it was, how great Stefanoni is, and what a terrific report that Massei put together. If I had read that part of the article without knowing who wrote it I would have picked a few of the regulars at PMF.

I would argue that John Kercher has as much right to write about his daughter and his views of the case, it no less than what Amanda’s parents have done, he is no more or no less an expert than they are.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Come across many (any?) posters like that here? Or are said posters a sad figment of your imagination?

Funny, I could have sworn there were one or two people around here whose justification for believing Knox and Sollecito guilty despite the insanity of the prosecution narrative and the hard evidence falsifying that narrative was more or less "a court found them guilty, so they're guilty to me until another court says otherwise, mere mortals like us cannot know better that a court".

Maybe those people were indeed sad figments of my imagination? That would be nice.

Anyway, if those sad figments do indeed exist, pointing out that the Italian court system has been robustly criticised both by prominent Italians and by the international community might give those sad figments pause.