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Hard Times Fall on "Da Twoof" Movement

It's not really that strange. Highly trained economists think that basing an economic system of perpetual growth is a good idea!

The link JJ. I want the link. Otherwise I will have to assume you are confusing a more recent posting of the 2004 CNN poll. As far as I can tell, the most recent poll was done by Angus-Reid. I await proof that this is wrong.
 
Because of the blinding speed with which JJ has reposted this broken link, I have to presume this post is an error. I suspect what JJ saw was this post on the Daily Paul dated September 25, 2010 announcing that "89% Believe US Government Covering Up 9/11". However, the link provided takes us to a 911truth.org post from 2004 that cites the then recent poll.

Prove me wrong. I patiently await a public demonstration of my mistake.
 
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1 - CNN has a subsection called "wefewendum?" Is Elmer Fudd the editor? Obviously, if the number was 89% than that was referring to the spammed web poll after an Anderson Cooper show in 2004.


2 - "Wow, that's almost the same percentage as those who believe the official 9/11 story." Yeah, that was kind of the point. You can find a quarter of Americans who will believe just about any crazy **** they hear.
 
Edited by kmortis: 
Removed previously moderated content and response to same


Originally Posted by Scott Sommers
And don't forget, 56% of Republicans think Obama isn't an American. That's almost about one-quarter of everyone.

Wow, that's almost the same percentage as those who believe the official 9/11 story.

Ironically, I actually agree this time with our friend ergo. I think such polls are pretty much useless for the purposes of this forum. That's why i don't cite them except to respond to statements about them as proof. If there's one thing clear from these numbers, it's that widespread suspicion about this issue much more resembles other politically-motivated suspicions or even ignorance about current events and has declined rapidly with the election of an African-American Democrat as the president. All of this is consistent with the extremely poor attendance at public demonstrations about the issue.
 
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Sorry about not reading your post carefully enough. I've never really worried about the
phenomenon evident here where alleged truthers may not actually be truthers
I always assumed that even the obnoxious believe what they say they believe. Most of them are too well 'informed', in that strange sense of being informed that Truthers think they are. So even when ergo says that he's never heard of some of the most important names in 911 Truthing, I assume this really is what it seems to be - a confession he doesn't know very much about the Truth Movement.
..and that is probably the point where my analysis departs from yours. We both accept the fact that "He knows little about the truth movement..." From there I interpret that ignorance as showing little serious interest in "the truth". Then the manner in which he throws the insults and snide comments whilst avoiding engaging the topic leads me to conclude "his interest in the truth is less than his interest in trolling..."

Apply the same logic to several others - most of whom have displayed a "one trick pony" approach to trolling - and in each case the effort put into evading the topic would lead to progress if applied to genuinely seeking the truth.

Sure the practice of some of the "debunkers" engaging in similar tactics (retaliation or "pre-emptive strike"?? :rolleyes:) adds to the noise on the channel... BUT anyone genuinely seeking the truth would address the topic not the noise and certainly not contribute to the noise themselves. Simple tactics if you are genuinely seeking the truth and need to conciliate differing points of view. Then take the extreme example of the metamars comment two posts before this one. No content whatsoever. 100% noise. And you generously react with courtesy where I would tend to not respond.

As for your later comments:
...I imagine the Truth Movement is full of people who have read only David Ray Griffin. They read some of that trash he puts out and go blind with anger. They might only know Griffin, but they would know him cold and they would know that 911 was an inside job.

One of things that has struck me talking with Truthers on Facebook is how ignorant most of them are about the body of 'Truth facts' that Truthing is based on. At times I have talked with Facebook Truthers about my deep commitment to 911 Truth. I don't know what Truthers really believe, so when I get asked real questions, I just make stuff up. They don't know. And they don't know because most Truthers don't know anything, even about Truthing. In this guise, I have spoken to Truthers who don't know who David Ray Griffin is, so I have no trouble believing there are Truthers who have never heard of Loose Change.
...I understand. However they relate to your experience in the broader world of truthing. My comments are still focussed on the narrower demographic sample of those who come here claiming to be truthers.
 
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...Put simply - the game players are fairly obvious - they have little interest in 9/11 truth - at most it is a secondary goal after game playing - and the game can be self perpetuating. So that type of truther could be around as long as others keep responding and thereby feeding the game players ego.
IOW trolls
Agreed but I was avoiding using the word because it is so wide ranging in meaning. ;)
 
1 - CNN has a subsection called "wefewendum?" Is Elmer Fudd the editor? Obviously, if the number was 89% than that was referring to the spammed web poll after an Anderson Cooper show in 2004.

Funnily, Elmer Fudd was my first thought before I even followed the link to a 404 page.

Do the conspiracy folks think nobody will follow up the links they post? Or was this some odd sense of humour?
 
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I just read Rancourt's article. It is bizarre. But in fact, it's not that bizarre. If you know something about Dr. Rancourt's actives outside of 911 Truth, it comes as no surprise that he appears to believe there is no such thing as modern science.

Dr. Rancourt was fired from the University of Ottawa because his version of 'teaching' is shared pretty much only with himself. I will quote Wikipedia because it is handy, but the facts of his dismissal are widespread on the Internet.
Rancourt describes his approach of "academic squatting" in which he took an existing course and changed the curriculum, using student input, without the approval of the university
Now before you go citing the further Wiki statement that,
During the second class of PHY 1703, the Dean of Science, Christian Detellier, announced that it had been shut down. A single student had complained the course's content did not match the official description. Thirty students in the class who supported Rancourt's actions complained to the administration.
I'd like to point out that the course is probably so popular because of
Rancourt's assigning of A+ grades to all students in a fourth-year physics course (PHY 4385 - cross-listed with PHY 5100) in the Winter 2008 term. Rancourt gave out the grades, which were officially approved by the university, because he believes that rank-ordering students is at odds with effective pedagogy.
Honestly, is that the way you want your doctors and dentists trained?

Rancourt points out in the article that no major activist of the left supports these ideas of a 911 conspiracy. He goes on to name them - Chomsky, Ward Churchill, George Galloway, and there are more. I am sure the strongest reasons for their rejection of the idea is just its scientific silliness. But there is another issue at stake here, considering the importance that politics seems to hold in Dr. Rancourt's belief system. Being a Canadian, he may not have noticed the way that the American right has picked up 911 Truth as a banner. Now Dr. Rancourt, anarchist intellectual, shares a seat next to neo-Nazi, apologists for deniers of the Holocaust, racists who want a white Christian America, and the John Birch Society.

There are a bunch of these kinds of guys floating around 911 Truth. David Ray Griffin, A. K. Dewdney, Graeme McQueen, maybe even Steve Jones and Dick Gage - old, leftists who still think 911 is a battle against George Bush. It's not anymore. Rancourt is wrong and 911 Truth is not this dangerous, edgy, intellectual thing too sharp even for the likes of Chomsky. It's just a silly cult-like belief system that appeals to lost, uneducated, right-wing kids.

Good luck marketing your ideas as cutting edge intellectual. To me, this is all just silly right-wing politics for the confused.
 
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Honestly, is that the way you want your doctors and dentists trained?

No. Have I anywhere indicated that I support everything Rancourt says and does? In point of fact, his essay on Chomsky was an embarassment, and he was taken apart as a result of that.

Good luck marketing your ideas as cutting edge intellectual. .


Thank-you. In spite of you not knowing what those ideas are, I could us some luck in propagating them.

To me, this is all just silly right-wing politics for the confused.

Speaking of confusion, correcting systemic dysfunction is partly to make our putative democracy more democratic. That means it will more closely reflect the desires of the populace. If the populace is more left wing on a particular issue, then that will prevail. If it is more right wing on a particular issue, then the right wing position will prevail. Therefore, if you're referring to my ideas for attacking systemic dysfunction, your sentence makes no sense. If, OTOH, you're referring to specific 911 Truth claims, your claim that they are "silly right-wing politics for the confused." is mostly wrong. There are more skeptics on the left, than the right, but as you would know if you frequently read 911blogger, 911 is typically viewed as a transpartisan issue, and there is a high degree of awareness of the shallowness of the left-right paradigm. Successfully reforming the governement to the point that it's fully capable of investigating itself, and thus able to investigate 911 honestly, would be slightly more pleasing to sympatheic lefties than sympathetic righties.
 
Speaking of confusion, correcting systemic dysfunction is partly to make our putative democracy more democratic. That means it will more closely reflect the desires of the populace. If the populace is more left wing on a particular issue, then that will prevail. If it is more right wing on a particular issue, then the right wing position will prevail. Therefore, if you're referring to my ideas for attacking systemic dysfunction, your sentence makes no sense. If, OTOH, you're referring to specific 911 Truth claims, your claim that they are "silly right-wing politics for the confused." is mostly wrong. There are more skeptics on the left, than the right, but as you would know if you frequently read 911blogger, 911 is typically viewed as a transpartisan issue, and there is a high degree of awareness of the shallowness of the left-right paradigm. Successfully reforming the governement to the point that it's fully capable of investigating itself, and thus able to investigate 911 honestly, would be slightly more pleasing to sympatheic lefties than sympathetic righties.

I can't blame you for not reading my posts and publications, since I don't read yours. But actually, we've been thrashing this one out for months. I have responded to all of these points, either in posts here at JREF or in the paper that I link to in my signature. Unfortunately, you will have to pay if you want to read it, as I am not the distributor.

I posted some of this in this thread
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201038
but you'll find some better thought through posts here
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187454

In all honesty, you're pretty much the only Truther here I feel I can reply to without some sense of distaste. Despite my last comment, you are more thoughtful than any of the others here, and you at least want to talk about this in a meaningful way. If you want to talk about this left/right thing, that would be great. I'm a little tired of vague comments unsupported by anything other than statements about particular people's friends. Maybe it's not fair to expect detailed data. But if you look at the history, even of data that I can verify, you find statements like those from our friend JihadJane who claims to have "recent" survey results that turn out to be from 2006 - and only became aware of this when we pointed it out.

But no, Truthing is not some Third Way that's charting a path that avoids both the left and the right. It is a belief increasingly adopted by those whose affiliation with right-wing groups and individuals makes their politics quite clear.
 
Thank you for the kind words. I got a lot of help and support from members of the JREF while I was doing the project, so I appreciate knowing there's interest in this kind of work.

Scott, was this in the latest issue of the US Skeptic magazine? My subscription ran out a few months back, if it's the same one I'll renew as I'd quite like to read the article
 

Didn't read through them, but seems like the usual JREF fluff, wherein the questions are mostly framing to allow the regurgitation of insults.

Is there anything like statistical data that would shed light on the question? I believe there is, and that data agrees with my observation of posters at 911blogger.

Where is your data? My apologies if it's in those threads - I only skimmed the first few pages. The insulting claims that I read, though, contradicted my (sketchy) recollection of the data, so I doubt if JREF's finest wanted to go down that road, rather than their usual lollipop lane.
 
Wow, that's almost the same percentage as those who believe the official 9/11 story.

<snort>

"almost the same percentage"
ranks right up there with your exponential comment, about, into vs onto...
and with truther math 70% of freefall is "almost" freefall...
 
fail

2 - "Wow, that's almost the same percentage as those who believe the official 9/11 story." Yeah, that was kind of the point. You can find a quarter of Americans who will believe just about any crazy **** they hear.

I can't believe I posted that. Whoops. Needless to say, I misread the post that I quoted.
 

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