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Hard Times Fall on "Da Twoof" Movement

ergo said:
38% agreed or said they "didn't know". That's more than 1 in 3 Americans.

"The commission that investigated the events of Sept. 11, 2001 concluded that an attack was carried out by 19 hijackers who were members of the al-Qaeda terrorist organization, led by Osama bin Laden. Do you believe this is what actually happened on 9/11?"

33% said no or they were "not sure". That's 1 in 3 Americans.

"The collapse of the World Trade Center was the result of a controlled demolition."

26% said this was credible or they were "not sure". That's 1 in 4 Americans.

If you understood how to interpret survey results, you would understand that these are actually pretty good numbers for 9/11 truth, in light of the ongoing efforts to discredit 9/11 inquiry, to discredit "conspiracy theorists", to suppress important information about the events of that day, to confuse citizens with incomplete, conflicting and inexact information about the WTC collapses and the Pentagon, to fuel anger and hatred of middle eastern nations, to justify invasions and occupations, and to perpetuate an ongoing propaganda campaign about the need for a war on "terror" and its justification in the events of 9/11.
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Sure, you can post up numbers and percentages all you want. It doesn't necessarily make it right!

Obvious 'Argumentum Ad Populum' is Obvious!
 
Recent polls encourage physicists to revise the size of electrons

beachnut said:
Why is 911 truth telling lies? Because Gage is making too much money to tell the truth.

1,457 idiots who can't read the hundreds of independent investigations already produce. 1,457 idiots who can't think for themselves. 1,457 gullible nuts who prefer nonsense to reality.

The best they have is talk, sweet nonsense talk filled with delusions and failed claims. Not one piece of evidence, morons too lazy to read the investigations on record. Non-thinking drones.

Gage makes 70k a year telling lies about 911. Who is dumb enough to fall for his lies?

.......

1,457 traitors who have no evidence
1,457 lazy people who refuse to think for themselves
1,457 terrorist apologist, who can't do physics
1,457 failures, who do not think before signing up for delusions
1,457 gullible - supporting terrorists due to ignorance
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Recent surveys indicate that reading 11% of beachnut's posts saves rationals 91% in time responding to the stupids.


ergo said:
Heh. A survey asking Americans if they agree with the Iranian president about 9/11 events.
.....

"The collapse of the World Trade Center was the result of a controlled demolition."

26% said this was credible or they were "not sure". That's 1 in 4 Americans.
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On a related note:

A Pew Center poll indicates that 48% of 18-29 year olds believe that electrons are larger than atoms.

http://pewresearch.org/sciencequiz/quiz/index.php
 
Quad4_72 said:
Which polls are you referring to?
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Well, technically, those polls from 2006 and 2007 "continue to show" what they showed when they were published. I imagine this is what poor ergo is referring to...

Also, ergo is clinging to that old deception of counting "don't know" and "unsure" in his favor. Tsk, tsk...
 
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BasqueArch said:
...
A Pew Center poll indicates that 48% of 18-29 year olds believe that electrons are larger than atoms.

http://pewresearch.org/sciencequiz/quiz/index.php
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Physics.

Oops, I am a minority of 10 percent; all correct. In a truther world I would be banned, and Balsamo is saving a bullet for me.

A 911 truth flaw, thinking you can vote on reality.
A 911 truth flaw, following the crowd without thinking.
A 911 truth flaw, thinking people blindly adopt an official story.

I am not supporting an official story, I am in awe how stupid we can be when we don't even try to think - 911 truth is not thinking, 911 Truth is the opposite of truth, 911 truth is delusional claims disguised with stupid.

The poor guy in the OP, thinks he is right; I always think I am wrong... And try to improve. I fell short, sometimes I am right.
 
carlitos said:
I think that Angus-Reid is a reputable outfit, but those questions could use some work. There are (literally) too many big words in them. Seriously, "fabrication as a pretext" is waaaay to complicated for a survey question. And saying "big fabrication" just seems weird. That's going to drive up "don't know" responses or cause misinterpretation. That's just how research works. Many of the truthy surveys I have seen have a similar lack of clarity and concise speech that we see in this subforum. Garbage in, garbage out.

Not to mention, taking the "I don't know" responses and making assumptions as to why is bad survey interpretation on ergo's part. When people say "I don't know" you don't get to assume why. When you have "agree / disagree / I don't know" you really only look at the agree / disagree numbers.

For some reason, I can't access the full PDF so I can't comment further.
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Actually, my point is a little bit more complex than ergo's comments on my post. The point of it was to compare the AG poll with beliefs in clearly incorrect beliefs about current events to show that beliefs about official involvement in 911 are now pretty much at the same level as other misconceptions.
Republicans still believe Barack Obama was not born in US
63 percent of Americans aged 18 to 24 failed to correctly locate the country on a map of the Middle East. Seventy percent could not find Iran or Israel
I'm not saying that ergo is wrong that vast numbers of Americans support him. I am saying that given the rate of participation in 911 Truth events, and the fact that large numbers of Americans are generally confused about current events, this point needs clarification if it is to used meaningfully.

DaN K. StAnLeY said:
Matthew and Co, recently set out on a city-wide "InfoBomb" for the Alex Jones "V for Victory" contest and glued tons of signs all over San Antonio. I know this is illegal and it ticks me off that they did it all around my campus at UTSA. I wonder if getting the police envolved would have any effect on some of these guys. Maybe a little scared straight action.

V for Vandalism: http://www.youtube.com/user/WeAreChangeSA
at one point the deface the San Antonio 9/11 Memorial and Alamo area.

I'm sure the police officer they call a "NAZI" here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR2bDk76pgI&feature=channel_video_title
might be interested to know they are still breaking the law.
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Ya, these We Are Change guys...You sometimes hear the term 'revolutionary youth' to describe young people with the interest and potential to help challenge a political system. The problem is this has become a fashion statement. I think people like Matthew Medina and even our friend ergo, confuse the idea of 'changing society' with causing trouble or even criminal delinquency. Sometimes I think it's a shame this energy is getting wasted, but then it seems to me this group is not really revolutionary or even interested in change. They're violent. They're not very bright. They seem unable to control their emotions and feelings. They confuse breaking other people's things with expressing their Constitutional rights.

I'm glad to see it's not just you and me who agree with this
Active 'Patriot' Groups in the United States in 2009
Charges Against We Are Change Leader Belie Group’s Pacifist Image
LA judge says activist We Are Change member a 'terrorist threat'
 
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Cl1mh4224rd said:
Well, technically, those polls from 2006 and 2007 "continue to show" what they showed when they were published. I imagine this is what poor ergo is referring to...

Also, ergo is clinging to that old deception of counting "don't know" and "unsure" in his favor. Tsk, tsk...
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That's what I figured. I am not aware of any current polls that "Continue to show" that people don't believe the official story.
 
Quad4_72 said:
That's what I figured. I am not aware of any current polls that "Continue to show" that people don't believe the official story.
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And this is the interesting thing. There are actually probability surveys from 2006 showing that most who accept these ideas are Democrats. But what does Obama with his Truthers? Fire them all - or at least the one of them. Does this cause huge unrest in the party? No. in fact, it hardly makes the headlines. It's one of these strange kinds of issues that you find in partisan politics where supports of a party latch onto anything bad they can say about the opposition and then effortlessly abandon it when it no longer serves a political purpose.

The question this leads to, that caught my interest, was why then are their still Truthers? In the US, it's been morphed into this New World Order right-wing conspiracy theory that appeals particularly to a category of young men.
 
Scott Sommers said:
And this is the interesting thing. There are actually probability surveys from 2006 showing that most who accept these ideas are Democrats. But what does Obama with his Truthers? Fire them all - or at least the one of them. Does this cause huge unrest in the party? No. in fact, it hardly makes the headlines. It's one of these strange kinds of issues that you find in partisan politics where supports of a party latch onto anything bad they can say about the opposition and then effortlessly abandon it when it no longer serves a political purpose.

The question this leads to, that caught my interest, was why then are their still Truthers? In the US, it's been morphed into this New World Order right-wing conspiracy theory that appeals particularly to a category of young men.
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One question I raise is, how long until the "Movement" goes the way of the buffalo and the conspiracy becomes something similar to the JFK nutters? Will the 9/11 retard theories stick around longer then any others due to the internet?
 
Quad4_72 said:
One question I raise is, how long until the "Movement" goes the way of the buffalo and the conspiracy becomes something similar to the JFK nutters? Will the 9/11 retard theories stick around longer then any others due to the internet?
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In my view at least one sector of the "truther" demography will stick around longer and probably due to the Internet.

They are those persons whose real motivation is in playing games and does not lie in the truth or otherwise of the facts of 9/11.

Look at the current crop of very active so called truthers. Then ask "what is this persons reason for their posting conduct?" It is easy to see that for many the main interest is is "jerking the chains" and getting responses. They show no interest in progressing forward their understanding of 9/11 events, rather disagree at any cost with what is put forward for their consideration. However the modest level of intellectual skill they demonstrate by their evasions and nit-picking derails shows that they are capable of understanding rationally presented truth.

Put simply - the game players are fairly obvious - they have little interest in 9/11 truth - at most it is a secondary goal after game playing - and the game can be self perpetuating. So that type of truther could be around as long as others keep responding and thereby feeding the game players ego.
 
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ozeco41 said:
Quad4_72 said:
One question I raise is, how long until the "Movement" goes the way of the buffalo and the conspiracy becomes something similar to the JFK nutters? Will the 9/11 retard theories stick around longer then any others due to the internet?
Click to expand...

In my view at least one sector of the "truther" demography will stick around longer and probably due to the Internet.

They are those persons whose real motivation is in playing games and does not lie in the truth or otherwise of the facts of 9/11.

Look at the current crop of very active so called truthers. Then ask "what is this persons reason for their posting conduct?" It is easy to see that for many the main interest is is "jerking the chains" and getting responses. They show no interest in progressing forward their understanding of 9/11 events, rather disagree at any cost with what is put forward for their consideration. However the modest level of intellectual skill they demonstrate by their evasions and nit-picking derails shows that they are capable of understanding rationally presented truth.

Put simply - the game players are fairly obvious - they have little interest in 9/11 truth - at most it is a secondary goal after game playing - and the game can be self perpetuating. So that type of truther could be around as long as others keep responding and thereby feeding the game players ego.
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While I agree with your answer, I have a different reason for feeling this way. The Truthers here and on the traditional Truther forums are the fossils of the old Truth Movement. If you head over to Facebook, you'll find the future of The Movement. That's where you'll get to know fellows like Matthew Medina, whom DaN K. StAnLeY and I were talking about earlier. Matt and his friends are very active, energetic people. Some of them are quite personable and even clever is a strange sort of way.

I mentioned earlier that I now see the Truth Movement as a lobby group for people who can't share in the benefits of the knowledge economy. This is a very large category. I increasingly have the suspicion conspiracy ideation is widespread among young white men in this group. By this group, I mean the sort of person who in the past would have found a job on the line at some large production firm, but now wanders from this job to that job and ends up supporting a family on "5 part-time jobs", as one member of We Are Change-Chicago put it. It's a by-product of the dismantling of the traditional American production economy. I'd like to study this more and am thinking about a further project addressing how widespread conspiracy ideation is.

My experience is that some group of Christians finds appealing the apocalyptic message of this New World Order/911 conspiracy ideation. It's not the clean-cut college kids who join Campus Crusade for Christ. But my experience has been many young people raised in Christian households wander off into the kind of sex and drug filled lifestyle that a lot of us here grew up in. So they may come across like Dante Hicks from Clerks, but the only exposure they've had to a fully developed epistemology is some form of Creation Science-type-crap. They may reject the Bible as a message for their life, and they may believe Dwayne Gish because he has a PhD. They find this sort of stuff comfortable and easy to manage cognitively. It's probably no coincidence that Matthew Medina's Facebook account states his Christian faith prominently.

I good friend of mine, with whom I talk about these issues, likens this problem to a recent book by James Scott called The Art of Not Being Governed. The book itself is about the formation of the so-called ethnic groups that populate the mountainous regions of central Asia. His thesis is that these are not ethnic groups in any sense related to the idea of genetic similarity, but rather the descendants of those who rejected and fled the early slave states of South-East Asia. These are people who rejected the state model of civilization and chose to not be governed.

If the economy of the USA never recovers to its former structure and unemployment just slides into larger and larger numbers, this will leave Americans to work primarily in part-time service jobs. There are going to be large groups of a new kind of working-class that just finds no advantage living inside the state, paying taxes and watching out for the police. Just like the mountain people in James Scott's ethnographies, they need a belief system that makes it 'right' to live their lives the way they want and gives order to abandoning the state system. You might believe your family has been given the job of keeping the trees and animals. You might also believe the 'government' is a servant of the Devil and poisons citizens with fluoride, aspartame and vaccinations.

I don't know if I can stay interested in this long enough to develop this more completely. But that's where I think 911 Truth is going.
 
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Scott Sommers said:
While I agree with your answer, I have a different reason for feeling this way. The Truthers here and on the traditional Truther forums are the fossils of the old Truth Movement. ....
....I don't know if I can stay interested in this long enough to develop this more completely. But that's where I think 911 Truth is going.
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I comprehend where you are coming from Scott. My comments referred to a specific and narrow slice of the "truther" demography whereas you are looking broadly at the full spectrum. Or, at least, the spectrum as you can currently see it. Hence my comment:
ozeco41 said:
In my view at least one sector of the "truther" demography will stick around longer and probably due to the Internet.

They are those persons whose real motivation is in playing games and does not lie in the truth or otherwise of the facts of 9/11....
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...possible was not sufficiently explicit.

The change of the working ethos from full time near full employment and long term employer/employee relationships in production industries to short term multiple part time jobs in service industries is affecting all the "western" democracies, US, UK, AU.

I appreciate your ability to put that in the broader predictive context of likely shifts in societal norms. Ditto the way that today's brands of fundamental Christianity can appeal to a more dispossessed sector of society rather than previous generations who were more conservative and attracted to a more conservative or "traditional" Christianity.

I had realised that my much narrower focussed comment could read as if I was disagreeing with your comments. Not so. I was simply putting a spotlight on a phenomenon evident here where alleged truthers may not actually be truthers.
 
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Originally Posted by Scott Sommers
While I agree with your answer, I have a different reason for feeling this way. The Truthers here and on the traditional Truther forums are the fossils of the old Truth Movement. ....
....I don't know if I can stay interested in this long enough to develop this more completely. But that's where I think 911 Truth is going.
I comprehend where you are coming from Scott. My comments referred to a specific and narrow slice of the "truther" demography whereas you are looking broadly at the full spectrum. Or, at least, the spectrum as you can currently see it. Hence my comment:
Originally Posted by ozeco41
In my view at least one sector of the "truther" demography will stick around longer and probably due to the Internet.

They are those persons whose real motivation is in playing games and does not lie in the truth or otherwise of the facts of 9/11....
...possible was not sufficiently explicit.

The change of the working ethos from full time near full employment and long term employer/employee relationships in production industries to short term multiple part time jobs in service industries is affecting all the "western" democracies, US, UK, AU.

I appreciate your ability to put that in the broader predictive context of likely shifts in societal norms. Ditto the way that today's brands of fundamental Christianity can appeal to a more dispossessed sector of society rather than previous generations who were more conservative and attracted to a more conservative or "traditional" Christianity.

I had realised that my much narrower focussed comment could read as if I was disagreeing with your comments. Not so. I was simply putting a spotlight on a phenomenon evident here where alleged truthers may not actually be truthers.
Click to expand...

Sorry about not reading your post carefully enough. I've never really worried about the
phenomenon evident here where alleged truthers may not actually be truthers
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I always assumed that even the obnoxious believe what they say they believe. Most of them are too well 'informed', in that strange sense of being informed that Truthers think they are. So even when ergo says that he's never heard of some of the most important names in 911 Truthing, I assume this really is what it seems to be - a confession he doesn't know very much about the Truth Movement.

I imagine the Truth Movement is full of people who have read only David Ray Griffin. They read some of that trash he puts out and go blind with anger. They might only know Griffin, but they would know him cold and they would know that 911 was an inside job.

One of things that has struck me talking with Truthers on Facebook is how ignorant most of them are about the body of 'Truth facts' that Truthing is based on. At times I have talked with Facebook Truthers about my deep commitment to 911 Truth. I don't know what Truthers really believe, so when I get asked real questions, I just make stuff up. They don't know. And they don't know because most Truthers don't know anything, even about Truthing. In this guise, I have spoken to Truthers who don't know who David Ray Griffin is, so I have no trouble believing there are Truthers who have never heard of Loose Change.
 
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ozeco41 said:
In my view at least one sector of the "truther" demography will stick around longer and probably due to the Internet.

They are those persons whose real motivation is in playing games and does not lie in the truth or otherwise of the facts of 9/11.

Look at the current crop of very active so called truthers. Then ask "what is this persons reason for their posting conduct?" It is easy to see that for many the main interest is is "jerking the chains" and getting responses. They show no interest in progressing forward their understanding of 9/11 events, rather disagree at any cost with what is put forward for their consideration. However the modest level of intellectual skill they demonstrate by their evasions and nit-picking derails shows that they are capable of understanding rationally presented truth.

Put simply - the game players are fairly obvious - they have little interest in 9/11 truth - at most it is a secondary goal after game playing - and the game can be self perpetuating. So that type of truther could be around as long as others keep responding and thereby feeding the game players ego.
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IOW trolls
 
Scott Sommers said:
Your link is broken. The most recent and direct poll is the Angus-Reid poll that I linked to. In fact, I can't find a recent CNN poll. Are you sure this is correct?

And don't forget, 56% of Republicans think Obama isn't an American. That's almost about one-quarter of everyone.

But get that link straightened out. I'd like to see this poll.
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And incredible majorities of Americans believe Genesis 1 describes scientific fact.
 
Oystein said:
And incredible majorities of Americans believe Genesis 1 describes scientific fact.
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Apparently you are correct. And here from Red Ibis' favorite paper...
Most Americans take Bible stories literally

But more pertinent to this situation is
70% believe Saddam, 9-11 link

I can easily believe that many Americans think what the Truther dudes call the 'official story' is that someone used explosives to destroy the WTC Buildings. I suspect that's what some of those 'not sure' people in the Angus-Reid poll are. They heard this and incorrectly think it is the 'official story', but they don't believe it. There's just too much ambiguity in all these major polls to know what this really means. Given that, one I can say for sure is that more Americans endorse belief that President Obama's not American that endorse belief that the WTC was destroyed by a demolition.
 
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It's not really that strange. Highly trained economists think that basing an economic system of perpetual growth is a good idea!
 
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