Hard Times Fall on "Da Twoof" Movement

[Scott Sommers]

Incredible.
You have never heard of Korey Rowe??
He was the producer of the singlemost influential movie documentary of the 9/11 "truth" movement, Loose Change.
Have you heard of Loose Change?
Can you google or WP "Loose Change"?

It's possible he's just trolling with his remarks. Certainly there's an element of troll in him, but his comment that

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers
911 Truth has very little to do with money for anyone. It is a right wing political movement. It is a spin off from Obama Anti-Christ Theory.

This is just getting bizarre.

indicates he might not know very much about 911 Truth. What we see as trolling might just be that he has no idea why he believes what he believes. All he's left with is this yelling and screaming about an inside job.

 

[ergo]

Most people in the general population have never heard of these two people you talk about. I can't help it if 9/11 bedunkers know more about new developments in the truth movement than I do--than, indeed, most 9/11 doubters do. This points to an observation I've made several times already that 9/11 bedunkers are somewhat obsessed with 9/11 truth. They know everything about "the movement". They can't leave it alone.

Bedunkers also don't understand that, just like support for the official story, 9/11 doubt is found across all demographics. It is varied. It is complex. It is multinational. It is not a single movement. While there are high profile activist groups and high profile researchers, 9/11 doubt spreads far beyond the world of internet personalities. If your main source of information is JREF or people like Scott Sommers, you are not going to know this. You are going to have a cartoon image of "truthers". And that's, for whatever bizarre personal reasons, the image they want you to have.

9/11 bedunkers would do well to follow their own proclamations that 9/11 truth is "dead" -- and go home already. Find another hobby. Please.

 

[beachnut]

Looks like my local loons have fallen on hard times. ....

Hard times?. 911 truth was still born on 911. It is a movement of dirt dumb zombie like failures who can't, or refuse to think for themselves. The movement never had any evidence except proof there are some gullible people out there.

Example of the caliber of people in 911 truth; Balsamo with his failed pilots who can't do math, 11.2g math morons. And when they try to correct their errors, the make up bigger lies. Like; 77 flew over the Pentagon. Spitting on the graves of those who died making up moronic lies for a few fringe paranoid conspiracy theorists with delusions.

http://sfcitizen.com/blog/2010/02/1...to-san-francisco-like-swallows-to-capistrano/

 

[Joey McGee]

9/11 bedunkers are somewhat obsessed with 9/11 truth. They know everything about "the movement". They can't leave it alone.

Ahhh well someone has to prepare the remedy for the virus that is cult movements. They're doing a service the same way Houdini did debunking psychic mediums back in the day.

Bedunkers also don't understand that, just like support for the official story, 9/11 doubt is found across all demographics. It is varied. It is complex. It is multinational. It is not a single movement. While there are high profile activist groups and high profile researchers, 9/11 doubt spreads far beyond the world of internet personalities.

It's a very virulent virus. It's an emotionally charged issue and people aren't aware of how to think scientifically and critically and the emotional trip is very addictive and overpowering for some people. Thankfully most people know it's some kind of cult.

If your main source of information is JREF or people like Scott Sommers, you are not going to know this. You are going to have a cartoon image of "truthers". And that's, for whatever bizarre personal reasons, the image they want you to have.

It's too bad but it's really a poisonous kind of environment you just have to see it for what it is...

9/11 bedunkers would do well to follow their own proclamations that 9/11 truth is "dead" -- and go home already. Find another hobby. Please.

It's not a game or a hobby, there's a real world consequence to the 9/11 conspiracy theory, geopolitically and personally for a lot of people and you have to grant the fact that if it's wrong, debunkers are doing a service. It's about science it's not hard to see that, and the science is wrong.

 

[JohnG]

Most people in the general population have never heard of these two people you talk about. I can't help it if 9/11 bedunkers know more about new developments in the truth movement than I do--than, indeed, most 9/11 doubters do. This points to an observation I've made several times already that 9/11 bedunkers are somewhat obsessed with 9/11 truth. They know everything about "the movement". They can't leave it alone.

Sort of like how atheists are often more knowledgeable about the Bible in particular and religion in general than are those who identify themselves as religious. Funny, that...

Truthers reading your comments are no doubt face-palming right now over your galloping ignorance of the Truth Movement. It's sort of cute in a way; sort of like when Avril Lavigne was in her punk-lite phase but had never heard of The Sex Pistols. Nothing wrong with ignorance per se, when it gets embarrassing though is when you wear your ignorance as badge of honor.

I will agree with you that "Most people in the general population have never heard of these two people you talk about", but then most people haven't heard of the Truth Movement, either, despite claims that it is a juggernaut that grows with every passing year.

Someday you'll realize what a fool you are making of yourself here, but I doubt it will be any time soon. I further doubt that once you do realize it that you'll have the class and courage to come back here and admit it, but then I'm a doubter from way back.

 

[Oystein]

Most people in the general population have never heard of these two people you talk about.

Most people in the general population are not members of the JREF forum and are not frequent posters in its 9/11-CT-subforum. But you are.
Most people in the general population do not post on the internet spreading 9/11 woo. But you do.
So most people in the general population are not expected to know the source of that woo. But you ought to.

I can't help it if 9/11 bedunkers know more about new developments in the truth movement than I do--than, indeed, most 9/11 doubters do.

INCORRECT.
Yes, you can indeed help it by informing yourself about the topic you so like to discuss here: 9/11 woo, how it came into being, and who is behind it. What these people say, and why they are wrong.

This points to an observation I've made several times already that 9/11 bedunkers are somewhat obsessed with 9/11 truth. They know everything about "the movement". They can't leave it alone.

INCORRECT.
People who have watched Loose Change, or fallen victim to CTers inspired by LC, are obsessed with 9/11 "truth".
We bee-dunkers are no more obsessed with it that you are, ergo.

Bedunkers also don't understand that, just like support for the official story, 9/11 doubt is found across all demographics. It is varied. It is complex. It is multinational. It is not a single movement. While there are high profile activist groups and high profile researchers, 9/11 doubt spreads far beyond the world of internet personalities.

9/11 woo has been spread across all demographics in multiple nations by a small number of truthers that one might call High Priests of 9/11 woo.
None of them were more "successful" than the makers of Loose Change. A film produced by Korey Rowe.
If you research the many and multibnational people across all demographics who are caught up in "9/11 doubt", you will find that a significant portion of them started to doubt the "official" story after watching Loose Change, a film produced by Korey Rowe, or works made disciples of Korey Rowe.
You never heard of Korey Rowe? That means you don't know literally the first thing about all the people who have been manipulated by liars like Korey Rowe into "doubting" 9/11.

If your main source of information is JREF or people like Scott Sommers, you are not going to know this. You are going to have a cartoon image of "truthers". And that's, for whatever bizarre personal reasons, the image they want you to have.

If. But Scott isn't our main source.
One main source is Loose Change, a film produced by Korey Rowe. Have you heard about Loose Change? Have you been influenced by Loose Change? Do you think Loose Change (any edition) is a valid documentary?

9/11 bedunkers would do well to follow their own proclamations that 9/11 truth is "dead" -- and go home already. Find another hobby. Please.

ergo would do well to follow his own advice.

 

[Scott Sommers]

Most people in the general population have never heard of these two people you talk about. I can't help it if 9/11 bedunkers know more about new developments in the truth movement than I do--than, indeed, most 9/11 doubters do. This points to an observation I've made several times already that 9/11 bedunkers are somewhat obsessed with 9/11 truth. They know everything about "the movement". They can't leave it alone.

Bedunkers also don't understand that, just like support for the official story, 9/11 doubt is found across all demographics. It is varied. It is complex. It is multinational. It is not a single movement. While there are high profile activist groups and high profile researchers, 9/11 doubt spreads far beyond the world of internet personalities. If your main source of information is JREF or people like Scott Sommers, you are not going to know this. You are going to have a cartoon image of "truthers". And that's, for whatever bizarre personal reasons, the image they want you to have.

9/11 bedunkers would do well to follow their own proclamations that 9/11 truth is "dead" -- and go home already. Find another hobby. Please.

Could you elaborate on this. Ideas about 911 conspiracies are not this patchwork of activity representing a spectrum of the world. It is increasingly a single movement and it's "high profile" figures increasingly relegated to talking with Youtube nuts. There's simply no interest in the idea in the mainstream middle-class world.

Look, 911 Truth was not an issue in the 2008 US Presidential election. There has been no election in the USA in which it has been an issue. Even Ron Paul has stated repeatedly he will not support 911 conspiracy ideas in his campaign - at least publicly. In fact, when the Obama Administration fired Van Jones for what was the slightest interest in 911 conspiracy, there wasn't a peep from anyone - including 911 Truth and its reps. None of the 911 professors - Jones, Wood, Barrett - have jobs any more. Not a peep. 911 Truth street demonstrations can't get more than a handful of people out. AE911T does nothing except look for names for a petition and raise money. There is no mention of this 911 conspiracy crap in any engineering or construction textbook used anywhere on Earth. The tallest demolished building in the world is still recorded as the Singer Building - everywhere.

In fact, if you don't come to websites like JREF or their Truther equivalents, you would have no idea anyone believes this trash. It is not talked about anywhere else. It is not talked about between engineering colleagues. It is not taught in engineering schools. I am friends with the designer of what was at one time, the tallest steel structure in Taiwan. His engineers had never heard of this before and laughed when I asked them what they thought. There are no demonstrations or protests that attract anything other than a handful of young kids. There are no engineers marching in the streets or speaking publicly about this. It's the same old tired crowd of 'experts' and a growing army of poorly employed young white men, many of whom link their belief in 911 conspiracy to a belief in Jesus and an Obama Anti-Christ.

So far, I've heard a lot of rhetoric from you. Can you point to specific instances of this powerful, intellectual movement you describe. Give me some evidence that it's not an Internet phenomena supported primarily by young white men with bad life prospects. Give me some sort of evidence of what you're talking about.

My opinion on groups like AE911T is that they generally only have a couple of real members. Gage is the only real member of AE911T. They would be unable to hold a conference that anyone would attend, so all those names on their website don't really mean anything. I have written members of Lawyers for 911 Truth and Medical Professionals for 911 Truth. I can post the responses I got, but they don't support your ideas. In fact, some of them don't even believe in a 911 conspiracy.

So, come on dude. Give me some evidence.

 

[Scott Sommers]

You have no evidence to support 911 truth claims. 911 truth has fooled you and you brag about it at a skeptics forum.

I suspect people like Tim McVeigh would fall for the lies of 911 truth. Lucky for the world all 911 truthers do is have a willingness to fall for lies due to a complete lack of knowledge in subjects required to understand 911; a grade school education.

You have nothing to save a brain dead movement which sole product is delusional lies. You never will post evidence to save 911 truth, not a single claim. 911 truth never had a chance, the only experts in 911 truth are insane like Jones who thinks the USA caused the earthquake in Haiti. Lucky you don't fall for the lies of 911 truth.

Yes, it is called ignorance.

Here are the leaders of 911 truth; in action. http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/semiliterateparanoiacswhofantasizeaboutt

I'd settle for a demonstration that the Movement's not just a bunch of names on an Internet petition and anonymous usernames on some forums. There has never been a substantial public demonstration. The 2006 memorial for 911 that was organized by Luke Rudkowski would be the closest this has ever come. But ergo's never heard of him, so I suppose that doesn't count. So with no major public events - ever - how could we even call this a 'movement'? It's as Noam Chomsky put it, an Internet rumour.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed previously moderated content and response to same

 

[Skeptic]

Using Truth Movement connections to raise personal money has been around for a long time.

Yes, I think it's called "religion".

 

[Scott Sommers]

Yes, I think it's called "religion".

It resembles a religious cult in many ways. I don't think of it as a cult because it has no central doctrine or leadership. It's a rhetoric that overlaps cults of different orientations. So you have the Obama-Anti-Christ crowd, but you also have a group that still talks like they're anarchists. Then there's the neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers who support the idea.

You could think of it as a unifying concept for people on the fringe of society, who no longer benefit from its structure. They are constructing a story about why you should abandon the state. It's the meta theme of this group. Leaders have tried to capture it, but it's a pretty disorganized chaotic bunch of people. They are naturally suspicious and antagonistic.

 

[carlitos]

It's possible he's just trolling with his remarks. Certainly there's an element of troll in him, ......

If you define "an element" as "everything he has ever posted" then yeah.

 

[beachnut]

Too bad the broke guy in the OP is not like Gage, spewing lies and making 70k a year off of morons.

http://www.ae911truth.org/ Did Hitler brag about having 1,000 NAZIs... It is sad to see anyone dumb enough to fall for 911 truth delusions. Bragging about 1,000 idiots singing up for woo is ironic.

 

[Scott Sommers]

Your blatherings are barely worth responding to. I shouldn't be, in fact. You lost credibility -- if you ever had any -- several threads ago. Everyone else here is well aware of ongoing media campaigns including lectures, television ads, radio, and coverage by mainstream media. The numbers at AETruth and other groups continue to grow. Polls continue to show significant numbers against the official story.

Name me some, or I'll just have to ignore you. In fact, if you had read my paper, you'd know that poll numbers are way down. The most recent numbers from Angus Reid are that 15% of respondents endorse the idea of a CD of the WTC buildings.
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/38598/most_americans_reject_9_11_conspiracy_theories/
This is is similar to the number stating that President Obama was not born in the United States. Large numbers of Americans and Canadians continue to have misconceptions about the events of 911 - and I don't just mean Truther stuff
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/35980/misconceptions_on_9_11_persist_in_us_canada/

Come on dude. Give me some names or some facts or some evidence. The few facts you've dribbled out so far are just wrong. Say something that I can verify or disprove.

 

[Scott Sommers]

And let me add this link
http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/adiodi3.htm
pointing out that large numbers of Americans also believe that 911 hijackers were Iraqi

More Americans Believe that Saddam Was Directly Involved in 9/11

There's so much confusion about 911 among Americans, who generally quite uninformed about the news, it's hard to tell if people endorsing conspiracy ideas believe this to be an alternative to what is generally believed or are simply mistaken about what they read and saw in the mainstream media.

 

[ergo]

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/35980/misconceptions_on_9_11_persist_in_us_canada/

Heh. A survey asking Americans if they agree with the Iranian president about 9/11 events.

Despite the bias thrown in at the beginning of the survey, as well as nine years of highly effective state and media propaganda on 9/11, guess what? Many Americans either doubt or are not sure. If Scott understood that 9/11 Truth is not just about CD theories, but about getting at the factual information on the events of that day, he would understand this study a lot better.

On this question: "Do you agree or disagree with this statement?: The Sept. 11 incident was a big fabrication as a pretext for the campaign against terrorism and a prelude for staging an invasion against Afghanistan.”'

38% agreed or said they "didn't know". That's more than 1 in 3 Americans.

"The commission that investigated the events of Sept. 11, 2001 concluded that an attack was carried out by 19 hijackers who were members of the al-Qaeda terrorist organization, led by Osama bin Laden. Do you believe this is what actually happened on 9/11?"

33% said no or they were "not sure". That's 1 in 3 Americans.

"The collapse of the World Trade Center was the result of a controlled demolition."

26% said this was credible or they were "not sure". That's 1 in 4 Americans.

If you understood how to interpret survey results, you would understand that these are actually pretty good numbers for 9/11 truth, in light of the ongoing efforts to discredit 9/11 inquiry, to discredit "conspiracy theorists", to suppress important information about the events of that day, to confuse citizens with incomplete, conflicting and inexact information about the WTC collapses and the Pentagon, to fuel anger and hatred of middle eastern nations, to justify invasions and occupations, and to perpetuate an ongoing propaganda campaign about the need for a war on "terror" and its justification in the events of 9/11.

And those results, despite even the fact that, as Scott himself points out

There's so much confusion about 911 among Americans, who generally quite uninformed about [it].

If you had any clue, Scott, how to read survey results, you wouldn't have posted this link. You're not a researcher. You are only looking for data that supports a specific message you want to propagate. This is pseudoscience at its worst. Skeptic Magazine, (which, fortunately, doesn't appear to be widely available) cannot possibly be a reputable resource if they publish diatribes like yours--your comments here being any reflection. Frankly, it sounds like it's a magazine for kooks.

As for the media campaign that 9/11 truth has been launching --funded only by their own resources, by the way-- a simple first resource is the AETruth events site, which, by your comments, you don't appear to even know about, and the news page. That's as far as I'll hold your hand. You claim to be a researcher. You should be able to find this information on your own.

And when are we going to see this verification of the 1,457 architects and engineers who have signed Richard Gage's petition for a new investigation? Why don't you spend some time on that, and get back to us when you have some factual information. In the meantime, stop wasting everyone's time.

 

[Quad4_72]

Polls continue to show significant numbers against the official story.

Which polls are you referring to?

 

[JohnG]

Skeptic Magazine, (which, fortunately, doesn't appear to be widely available) cannot possibly be a reputable resource if they publish diatribes like yours--your comments here being any reflection. Frankly, it sounds like it's a magazine for kooks.

Hey, look at that, yet another thing you know nothing about, yet feel compelled to lecture others on. Another perfect storm of arrogance and cluelessness. Dunning-Kruger incarnate!

Some of the contributors to the "magazine for kooks" over the years have been Carl Sagan, Martin Gardner, Stephen Jay Gould and of course James Randi himself.

I've certainly never had trouble finding SKEPTIC. Both SKEPTIC and Skeptical Inquirer are easy to find at every local Library I've visited and at both Borders and Barnes & Noble bookstores. I understand the confusion though; Truthers aren't exactly, how can I put this kindly, bookworms, are they? Just because SKEPTIC doesn't appear at the local tobacconists alongside High Times and Hustler doesn't mean it isn't "widely available".

The anti-intellectual bias of the Truth Movement is a trait shared by both the former Bush administration and al-Qaeda. Intellectual laziness and a general lack of critical thinking certainly makes for strange bedfellows!

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

I think the guy's an idiot just as much as you do, but I don't think he means he's editing videos that he then sells. Most of these videos would be given away on the street or posted on Youtube. WAC SA posts a lot of videos and the young Mr. Medina (he is 28) is willing to do his part. In fact, if you go to their Myspace account, you will see a Youtube video of Mr. Medina doing his thing. There's no money at all in this for him. I think the guy's a goof, but he is truly committed to this in a very real way. He is not one of these pretend Truthers who signs an Internet petition before they go back to work or one who hides behind an anonymous Internet Username. He truly believes that the government murders people all the time, and has transformed his life for 911 Truth. It is noteworthy that Mr. Medina has very strong Christian beliefs.

911 Truth has very little to do with money for anyone. It is a right wing political movement. It is a spin off from Obama Anti-Christ Theory. It is believed largely among Americans who live marginal lifestyles disassociated from success or professional life as it is represented traditionally in the media and middle-class life. I am increasingly leaning toward interpreting 911 Truth not as a cult belief or even irrational thought, but as a movement toward statelessness in the sense that James Scott uses the idea in the Art of Not Being Governed.

First bolding there is funny to me. All the guys in this group seem to be "christians" and then they do some pretty messed up junk to whoever questions their nonsense. This particular group has accused me of, filming children at there protest (you can guess the reason), being a convicted sex criminal, working for the NSA, being a provocateur at their street actions, etc.
Not to mention a few of them got in my face. I had to remind them I was recording and that there were police across the street at the time. Not very Christian at all.

Second bolding is something I saw coming after Obama got elected. I even mentioned (either on SLC blog or here somewhere) that people were gonna go ape-stuff when a brotha got elected as president. Rush Limbung and Beck started taking news articles from Infowars and PrisonPlanet and people here in TX started buyin up a whole lotta guns and ammo because Obama was supposed to take all the guns away. Not to mention the birther movement made news. It's been pretty crazy seeing people, who were normally not willing to accept CT's about Bush, jump all over ANY CT that made Obama look bad.

 

[DaN K. StAnLeY]

Matthew and Co, recently set out on a city-wide "InfoBomb" for the Alex Jones "V for Victory" contest and glued tons of signs all over San Antonio. I know this is illegal and it ticks me off that they did it all around my campus at UTSA. I wonder if getting the police envolved would have any effect on some of these guys. Maybe a little scared straight action.

V for Vandalism: http://www.youtube.com/user/WeAreChangeSA
at one point the deface the San Antonio 9/11 Memorial and Alamo area.

I'm sure the police officer they call a "NAZI" here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR2bDk76pgI&feature=channel_video_title
might be interested to know they are still breaking the law.

 

[carlitos]

I think that Angus-Reid is a reputable outfit, but those questions could use some work. There are (literally) too many big words in them. Seriously, "fabrication as a pretext" is waaaay to complicated for a survey question. And saying "big fabrication" just seems weird. That's going to drive up "don't know" responses or cause misinterpretation. That's just how research works. Many of the truthy surveys I have seen have a similar lack of clarity and concise speech that we see in this subforum. Garbage in, garbage out.

Not to mention, taking the "I don't know" responses and making assumptions as to why is bad survey interpretation on ergo's part. When people say "I don't know" you don't get to assume why. When you have "agree / disagree / I don't know" you really only look at the agree / disagree numbers.

For some reason, I can't access the full PDF so I can't comment further.