Assistance required for telepathy proof

golfy said:
Unlikely but maybe. If I start getting consistent results in the near future then there will be no need to. Whenever I try new and better designed tests they give better more accurate results that I am telepathic.

golfy
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Only one snag there,you are not telepathic. Good luck.
 
I think I might have come up with a workable protocol that both golfy and a testing organization might like, but it's pointless to mention it if golfy doesn't trust anyone. I'll wait until I get a response to my previous post before I reveal it. Here's that previous unanswered post:

wardenclyffe said:
golfy,

I've stayed out of this thread because I haven't felt the need to offer any advice. You are getting great advice from many other posters. I do have a question, though. If you cannot trust your sister, if you cannot trust any friend, then why do you think you can trust JREF? Your sister has no money on the line, in fact she only has money to gain by just being honest with you. The same is true of apparently every friend you have. JREF stands to lose a million dollars, but you seem to trust them. I don't understand why.

I mean I trust them, but I don't understand why you do when you do not trust even the people closest to you, especially when there's money in it for them. What do you think is going on?

Thanks,
Ward
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SOdhner said:
Suggested protocol:

G = Golfy
P = Participant
T = Neutral Third Party
C/S = Cat or Ship

G and P are placed close enough that G feels his telepathy can work, but are blocked from seeing each other. Both are blocked from seeing the results of the Stress Test thing.

T randomly selects C or S for G, and gives him a card with the word or picture or both. T takes note of which one G has.

T asks P "Does Golfy have 'CAT'?". P responds with a YES (meaning G has the 'cat' card) or NO (meaning G has the 'ship' card). T notes the reply, and also notes the readout on the stress tester.

T asks P "Does Golfy have 'SHIP'?". P responds with a YES (meaning G has the 'ship' card) or NO (meaning G has the 'cat' card). T notes the reply, and also notes the readout on the stress tester.

T collects the card from G, and randomly selects again. The process above repeats until T has twenty results.

T presents the Stress Test data for analysis, WITHOUT revealing what card P indicated that G had. The data is in a scrambled order.

G indicates which responses he feels are lies, still not knowing what was said at those times. G agrees when complete that these are final answers and will not change once the YES/NO data is revealed. If G marks any as being unsure, those are eliminated. If too many are eliminated (not sure how to set the number) the whole test is invalidated.

T unscrambles the Stress Test data and lines it up with the YES/NO data. Any result where G listed it as a LIE and the answer was correct means that set is a miss. Any result where G listed it as TRUE and the answer was incorrect means that set is a miss.

If there are more hits than what would be expected by chance, G enters to win the $1,000,000 prize. If there are not, G admits defeat.

---

The one thing I'm not pleased with here is not having a third option of "I have no idea what card Golfy has", but if the protocol above is followed that shouldn't be a big deal.
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If G knows P, then we can't rule out the possibility that P can manipulate the stress test data, to provide a different signature for each of the twenty trials, by thinking of an emotionally different image in each. We also can't rule out the possibility that G could then marry the individual test data to the corresponding trial number and card.

If G doesn't know P then G gets to blame P in the event of a failure.
 
golfy said:
Yes, the fact the 1st test at the University showed that I was telepathic and taught me what people responded to. The second test was very indicative of my ability by a large factor compared to the first one when I added what I had learnt. The tests were done under close scrutiny by University staff in sound proof rooms 40 yards apart.
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Were they scrutinizing you for the purposes of this particular test, or for some other reason?

Another possibility: Did they know they were scrutinizing you?
 
Only one snag there, you are not telepathic. Good luck.
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And you can provide evidence that that statement is true how dafydd?

I thought that this was an evidence based forum - your statement is as true as this one "I can levitate but I will not provide proof of my levitation"



I have asked James Randi if a poly can be used in a JREF test - his reply was

"Fill out the application. Until then, no more communication. I'm busy.

J.R."


This does not categorically state that a poly cannot be used - if it was not acceptable at all then in the time he took to write the above I assume he would have simply said "No, but a GSR is."

If a poly was 100% reliable every time then how would I cheat with it if the receiver does not know what word I have and I do not know what word the receiver has?

Assuming hypothetically that the GSR I used was 100% accurate, then the results it gave were 100% true – she can hear my thoughts in this hypothetical example. How was cheating accomplished on my part to trick the Doctor? If you cannot show how it was done then you cannot say that the protocol is at fault apart from is should be done multiple times.

If a poly is unreliable, not 100% accurate, then that only goes against me in a JREF test. It will make my attempt to prove that I am telepathic a little more difficult. If the poly made errors 3 out of 10 times then the best result I would possibly get would be 7 out of 10 indications that a person can hear my thoughts if they could actually hear my thoughts. That may not be conclusive enough for the JREF to accept that actual thought transmission was taking place. The JREF may consider that 8 out of 10 would be their decision point – 8 plus out of 10 equals telepathic transmission, 7 or less equals inconclusive or nothing better than chance if it was 5 out of ten etc.

Therefore a poly would be allowed in a test as its unreliability (in your opinion) only makes it harder for me to win the $1M, which is in the JREFs favour.

A totally accurate poly does not allow cheating or manipulation if the protocol agreed with the JREF is adhered to – the JREF will ensure that it is adhered to.

So what is the logic that you are using to conclude that a poly cannot be used in a JREF test? Please explain and back up your statements.

A poly measures heart rate, blood pressure, breathing rate and GSR. How does measuring these physiological parameters enable me to cheat if the receiver does not know what word I have? Please explain your premis for not allowing a poly.

A cat ship test was set up with no cheating possible (I see no reason to change the basic cat ship test) with a non telepathic person. The “transmitter” uses spoken word to tell the other person (this is cheating but please continue) what word he has.

The other person (The RX or receiver) on the poly is asked the two questions – do you have the same word as the TX (transmitter) and do you have a different word as the TX. If both questions are answered “no” then one will be a lie. If that lie is detectable on a poly then it can be worked out which word the RX has. This proves the protocol works apart from the spoken word is used which breaks the protocol.

The test is then carried out again but this time the TX is not allowed to speak. As the protocol does not allow any form of cheating then there is now no way that the RX can know what word the TX has as the TX is not telepathic. The same “do you have” questions are asked and presumably the poly will not register any lies as the RX will not be lying as she/he genuinely does not know which word the TX has. Which word the RX has can now not be worked out from the poly as no lie indications are present – the traces on both questions would be very similar as the state of mind of the RX would be the same on both questions – “I genuinely do not know as the TX has not told me his word.” There would not be a small reading on one answer and a large reading on the other. Both would be similar so it cannot be determined which word the RX has – conclusion – no transmission from the TX has taken place. The tightness of the protocol is then proven.

The volunteer TX then leaves the test room and I enter and take his place. The test is then done again. If the poly then gives the same kind of readings that it did on the first test session where the TX used the spoken word, but in this case no words are spoken by me then I must be telepathic if from the poly readings the RXs word can be worked out. The same results are being replicated as in the first test – conclusion – telepathic transmission has taken place as the protocol is cheat proof.

This is the protocol that I would suggest to the JREF.

First of all I will make sure that the poly tests are working and reliable before I put forward my application to the JREF

golfy
 
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golfy said:
The GSR responds to her attempt to conceal her knowledge that she had a different word to me. Her answer of "I don't know" are the words coming from her mouth - her fear of the GSR responding to the second question and therefore indicating which card she has is the basis of how a poly works.

golfy
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golfy, a GSR is very easy to manipulate, I've done it myself, drives the scientologists crazy.

A polygraph is not only possible to manipulate, but completely dependent on the subjective judgement of the operator, and will therefore never be part of a JREF challenge.
 
golfy said:
First of all I will make sure that the poly tests are working and reliable before I put forward my application to the JREF

golfy
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If you could do that then your fame and fortune would be assured and you wouldn't need Mr Randi or his million, and you especially wouldn't need our help in coming up with increasingly silly ways to test the telepathic powers that you don't have.
 
About the only way I could see the use of a polygraph being acceptable is if the claimant is if the one using it.

So something like:

1. Claimant is given one of two cards at random by Observer A and "sends" it telepathically to receiver who is connected to polygraph machine. Card is recorded by observer A.

2. At the same time receiver is shown both cards in random order by Observer B (out of sight of claimant) and asked if that is the one he is receiving, and answers "no" to both. The order in which the two cards were shown is recorded by Observer B.

3. Repeat, say, 20 times. So Observer A has list of 20 cards, Observer B has list of 20 pairs of cards.

4. Claimant is shown the polygraph readout on which the time at which each pair of answers was made has been marked and identifies which answer of each pair he thinks indicates the receiver was telling the truth, and which is the lie in each case. Observer B listens and strikes out either the first or second card from his list, according to which the claimant says is the lie.

5. We now have two lists which should be the same if the claimant has successfully sent the identity of each card telepathically to the receiver.
 
RemieV's statement that the JREF would not accept a protocol that uses a polygraph to measure results doesn't (or shouldn't) apply in this case.

There's no measurement or interpretation of the GSR meter in the results. The result would be whether the receiver wrote down "cat" or "ship" and whether Golfy correctly determined the word. It's a simple binary result.

The instrument is used in much the same way a divining rod or pendulum would be used by a dowser.

That said, I think we should be more concerned with the mental state of anyone who feels everyone, or nearly everyone, in the world can hear their thoughts but constantly lie to him about it.

While it is amusing to see charlatans come forward to try to be tested and go down in flames and try to make excuses, in this case I'd be worried about encouraging a potentially serious disturbed individual to do anything other than seek professional assistance.
 
RemieV's statement that the JREF would not accept a protocol that uses a polygraph to measure results doesn't (or shouldn't) apply in this case.

There's no measurement or interpretation of the GSR meter in the results. The result would be whether the receiver wrote down "cat" or "ship" and whether Golfy correctly determined the word. It's a simple binary result.

The instrument is used in much the same way a divining rod or pendulum would be used by a dowser.
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So how do you connect the cat ship test results obtained with the Doctor and potential insanity?


Sounds like you guys are worried that I may prove myself to be correct.

golfy
 
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Another superhero that seems much more interested in talking about their power for the longest possible amount of time, than actually proving it.

Giant surprise.
 
Hitch said:
RemieV's statement that the JREF would not accept a protocol that uses a polygraph to measure results doesn't (or shouldn't) apply in this case.
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No, it absolutely applies in this case. In fact, it was in this very thread where RemieV, acting as an official of the JREF, posted the following--
RemieV said:
Hey, everyone. Sorry to get in on this conversation so late.

To clarify, the JREF will not accept a protocol that uses a polygraph to measure results. Polygraphs are notoriously unreliable, and they can be tricked. Golfy, you should be against using a polygraph as well.
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golfy said:
So how do you connect the cat ship test results obtained with the Doctor and potential insanity?
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We've already told you why the one test you did with the doctor is not impressive.

In fact, you appear to be the only one impressed by it. Not even your doctor was.
 
I am more interested in testing than in talking. Results speak louder than words but you lot simply make unsubstantiated criticisms against ever increasing evidence. I'll prove myself telepathic outside of a forum of "dragger downers" thanks. You criticised me last time but all my results have been obtained without the help of this forum.

As I stated yesterday, my poly is now assembled and will be fully tested and then used to construct more repeatable, reliable tests. How do you now substantiate this statement?

Another superhero that seems much more interested in talking about their power for the longest possible amount of time, than actually proving it.
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You seem to want me to use your protocols rather than use one that has actually worked already. It needs to be repeated again and again to satisfy my statement that I am telepathic, that does not mean that it need changing.

I have asked you to show me how I have cheated with my Doctor and yet non of you “intellectuals” has come up with much more than a bit of lame name calling.

Is this the best you guys can do? You’ll lose against actual repeatability hands down.

golfy
 
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golfy said:
So how do you connect the cat ship test results obtained with the Doctor and potential insanity?


Sounds like you guys are worried that I may prove myself to be correct.

golfy
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Two simple questions for Golfy:

Do you believe that most people in the world can hear your thoughts?

If so, do you believe that most of those people would lie to you about their ability to hear your thoughts?
 
golfy said:
I am more interested in testing than in talking. Results speak louder than words but you lot simply make unsubstantiated criticisms against ever increasing evidence. I'll prove myself telepathic outside of a forum of "dragger downers" thanks. You criticised me last time but all my results have been obtained without the help of this forum.

As I stated yesterday, my poly is now assembled and will be fully tested and then used to construct more repeatable, reliable tests. How do you now substantiate this statement?




You seem to want me to use your protocols rather than use one that has actually worked already. It needs to be repeated again and again to satisfy the assumption that i am telepathic, that does not mean that it need changing.

I have asked you to show me how I have cheated with my Doctor and yet non of you “intellectuals” has come up with much more than a bit of lame name calling.

Is this the best you guys can do? You’ll lose against actual repeatability hands down.

golfy
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The problem is, to put it bluntly, your protocols suck ( note i say your protocols, i have no knowledge of you as a person.). They suck hard , and they suck all day. They are nothing close to what would be acceptable.

Let me design my own protocol and i can guarantee i can beat chuck lidell in a fight. Once you actually make it a fair match though, my ability to beat him leaves. Much like your psychic ability.

You should take a lesson from that. When you set the rules, your always going to win.
 
also isn't the definition of impressive, something that impresses people?

Seeing as no one is impressed, golf, you cannot claim that your results are impressive.
 
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