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No Fly zones over Libya?

Darth Rotor said:
Actually, a drone could shoot down an aircraft, but given what most drones are armed with, it'd be a tricky shot. ;)

More precisely, a Predator drone could shoot down a helicopter with a Hellfire, but
a) the target acquisition element of that shot would need to be spot on, and
b) IMO the helicopter would need to be unalerted and flying in a non-evasive flight path.

There are a few other technical details on that shot I'll not discuss here.
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The most remarkable air-to-air kill that I ever read about happened in Gulf War I. An F-15E saw an Iraqi helicopter (probably an Mi-24 Hind) on the ground and decided to attack it. They weren't in a good position for a missile or cannon shot so they dropped a laser-guided bomb. The helicopter took off before the bomb reached it and was climbing away, so the F-15E kept the laser designator on it while it was in the air. The bomb hit the helicopter, causing a huge fireball. Unalerted and non-evasive flight path indeed.
 
I think this weekend was a tipping point, and now the momentum is shifting towards a No Fly Zone. The operations officers aboard the carriers and at the air bases are doing the targeting plans right now, guarantted.
 
dudalb said:
I think this weekend was a tipping point, and now the momentum is shifting towards a No Fly Zone. The operations officers aboard the carriers and at the air bases are doing the targeting plans right now, guarantted.
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I'd given up hope, actually.
John Kerry said it should be planned for, even if not implemented. I can't see anyone arguing with that. Then, on one of the news channels, I heard that it took a year for the UN to agree a no fly zone over Bosnia. I might have misheard, though, (or they summarised losely) given that wiki says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Deny_Flight

wiki said:
In October 1992, at the beginning of the Bosnian War, the United Nations Security Council passed Resolution 781. This resolution prohibited unauthorized military flights in Bosnian airspace. Following the resolution, NATO began Operation Sky Monitor during which NATO forces monitored violations of the no-fly zone, without taking any military action against violators. By April 1993, NATO forces had documented more than 500 violations of the no-fly zone.[4] In response to these "blatant" violations of Bosnian air space, and implicitly of resolution 781, the UN Security Council issued Resolution 816.[5]

While Resolution 781 prohibited only military flights, Resolution 816 prohibited all flights in Bosnian air space, except for those expressly authorized by the UN Flight Coordination Center in Zagreb. The resolution also authorized UN member states to "take all necessary measures...to ensure compliance" with the no-fly zone restrictions.[5] In response to this resolution, NATO commenced Operation Deny Flight on April 12, 1993.
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ETA: with the Bosnian war starting in April 1992:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_War



BAC provided this link in another htread:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...61610325024.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_AboveLEFTTop

It has an idea we've not considered so far:

wsj said:
Even short of providing arms—which we would support—the U.S. could help by jamming Gadhafi's propaganda or military communications, as well as providing intelligence.
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Small-fry, maybe, but it's something.
 
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dudalb said:
I think this weekend was a tipping point, and now the momentum is shifting towards a No Fly Zone. The operations officers aboard the carriers and at the air bases are doing the targeting plans right now, guarantted.
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And they won't fire a shot until the political go-ahead is given. That may take time, and Ghaddafi is on the roll. The descision needs to be made within a week or so, I would say.

McHrozni
 
I hear that China's pulling out thousands of its workers there. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-03/06/c_13763068.htm I was wondering if Russia and China will supply Gaddafi's resistance? He's held on too long now to go quickly at all (barring something that forces it). So he'll be looking for betters on his own survival in power.

Might sounds nuts, but I hear Israel is also backing Gaddafi, for fear of what happens if the religious half wins the war, as the US is apparently hoping.

Sorry if any of that's totally whack - a combo of not being able to follow much news, and one info packed e-mail I got.

Also, are we quite sure all the stories of massacres and atrocities justifying such drastic measures are actuall true? Should mistaken reports or the word of rebel militants (who are now on record killing captured prisoners in violation of general human rights ideals) be used as the basis for measures up to warfare and regime change?

I guess so long as it's all about Daffy Qaddafi. Truth seems to only matter so much where his unspeakable alleged villany is concerned.

But don't let me interrupt the technical discussions.
 
Caustic Logic said:
I hear that China's pulling out thousands of its workers there. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-03/06/c_13763068.htm I was wondering if Russia and China will supply Gaddafi's resistance? He's held on too long now to go quickly at all (barring something that forces it). So he'll be looking for betters on his own survival in power.

Might sounds nuts, but I hear Israel is also backing Gaddafi, for fear of what happens if the religious half wins the war, as the US is apparently hoping.
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Stranger things have happened ... I seem to recall Iran Contra, 80's, when Regan's dudes out and about worked some arms deals for Iran ... IIRC some Israeli F-4 parts, among other things ...

From your link:
An Israeli company is recruiting mercenaries to support Moammar Gadhafi's efforts to suppress an uprising against his regime, an Israeli news site said Tuesday. Citing Egyptian sources, the Hebrew-language news site Inyan Merkazi said the company was run by retired Israeli army commanders.

The report claims that many high-profile former Israeli officers have been illegally trading weapons in several African nations, and have faced interrogations over their activities in the past.
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Plausible, and certainly a profit motive. Will be interesting to see if enough facts emerge from this to confirm ... but it would not surprise me.
 
leftysergeant said:
Having heard some of those things he said, I hope he developes a neurological problem that will keep him from saying how he thinks this mess should be handled. We don't need any more idiots stirred up demanding action because a so-called "expert" said this is the way we should do it.
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You wish diseases on people?
 
Virus said:
Take Arab news sources with a pinch of salt. A very big pinch.
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Aye. I recomend using one of these:

BigDigger.jpg


McHrozni
 
Caustic Logic said:
Also, are we quite sure all the stories of massacres and atrocities justifying such drastic measures are actuall true? Should mistaken reports or the word of rebel militants (who are now on record killing captured prisoners in violation of general human rights ideals) be used as the basis for measures up to warfare and regime change?
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I'm actually quite certain not all stories are true, just as I'm quite certain we aren't recieving news of every such story. That doesn't mean the massacres aren't happening - if any of the reports of foreign mercenary militia are true, anything less would be downright amazing.

McHrozni
 
FireGarden said:
~~~
Both Iran and Gaddafi would consider a no fly zone an act of war.
~~~
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And they would not be wrong to do so. Then the next thing you know is you get into calls for Obama to be dragged to the Hague and tried for war crimes.
 
Virus said:
Take Arab news sources with a pinch of salt. A very big pinch.
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Only Arab news sources?

I get what you're saying, when it's controversial and about Israel. Let's just say it's reported and possible, and see what else comes out of it.

I don't think we're getting an accurate picture froom our media. Roughly zero pro-Gaddafi or inside or even neutral voices presented, 100% anti-Gaddafi to differing degrees only. That Gaddafi is allegedly committing such a cartoonishly overblown list of atrocities - a new massacre every ten minutes, it seems - that it seems to us like some mini holocaust is one clue that filters are at work.

Especially when the persecutees control half the country and are shooting all kinds of weapons back and seizing towns and planning new governments, that we need to intervene and seize the skies for the rebel side to feed the starving masses locked down by Gaddafi's regime ... There might be a reason this doesn't all seem to fit the same reality. It feels like a mix of at least two, and only one of them can be true.
 
Okay, incidents and truth ... let's take one case in point. I'm not up to speed on this yet, but can anyone tell me if there were one single alleged atrocity by the regime that started discussion of a no-fly zone over Libya, what would it be?

It was those fighter pilots that defected to Malta and their order to bomb/fire on protesters (not militants!), wasn't it?

Because if it's a war/separation /takeover situation, hey ... Abraham Lincoln bombed the hell out of "his own people."

Is there any possibility that order was fabricated or even just misunderstood? I don't mean to argue it and go to CT, just on principle, are we sure enough it happened that we need to seize the skies for the rebels?
 
Caustic Logic said:
Okay, incidents and truth ... let's take one case in point. I'm not up to speed on this yet, but can anyone tell me if there were one single alleged atrocity by the regime that started discussion of a no-fly zone over Libya, what would it be?

It was those fighter pilots that defected to Malta and their order to bomb/fire on protesters (not militants!), wasn't it?

Because if it's a war/separation /takeover situation, hey ... Abraham Lincoln bombed the hell out of "his own people."

Is there any possibility that order was fabricated or even just misunderstood? I don't mean to argue it and go to CT, just on principle, are we sure enough it happened that we need to seize the skies for the rebels?
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So what you're saying is that Khaddafi needs a Gen. Sherman?

;)
 
Virus said:
You wish diseases on people?
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Let's just say it were better for the world had Rummy never learned to talk in the first place. Nothing beneficial to mankind ever issued from his mouth.

There is reason to believe that he already suffers from a neurological or psychiatric problem already.
 
Liam Fox said:
Military action is not the only way to impose a no-fly zone on Libya, UK Defence Secretary Liam Fox has said.
His US counterpart Robert Gates has warned that forces would have to attack Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's defences in order to ground his planes.
But Dr Fox told BBC Radio 4's Today programme there were "alternatives".
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One of his "alternatives" is that you can safely ignore air defences until they shoot at you. I'm not sure if he's checked this plan over with anyone from the RAF yet.



Link
 
Caustic Logic said:
Because if it's a war/separation /takeover situation, hey ... Abraham Lincoln bombed the hell out of "his own people."
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Relevance? :)

Is there any possibility that order was fabricated or even just misunderstood? I don't mean to argue it and go to CT, just on principle, are we sure enough it happened that we need to seize the skies for the rebels?
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Yes, we are sure enough of that as far as I'm concerned. Check what happened to the BBC crew for one more example. Even if the said order were misunderstood, which is highly unlikely, there are numerous other reasons why a no-fly zone would be justified in this case.

McHrozni
 
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