Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[truethat]

.


If I put you in a one foot tall cage right at the edge of the water at low tide, and left you there to wait for high tide -- am I responsible for your death?

Answer, since you won't: yes, yes I am. Let me type it slowly for you:

.

Kageki this is a really important point that you keep skipping around.

and more to the point, even if there wasn't a 'final plan' at the beginning of the holocaust, the reality sure as hell unfolded that way.

I mean your statements on here seem to be of the idea that Nazis have a right to be really pissed off because they accidentally contributed to the death of millions of people.

seriously? the poor misunderstood Nazis. sniffle.

 

[Thunder]

First of all this has nothing to do about gas chambers.

I'm not aware of Germany declaring war on the Jews of the World. They were basically defending themselves and their territory. Their goal was expulsion. Then also fighting Bolshevism which was seen as a Jewish thing. I don't see any reason to believe that the Germans wanted to hunt down every last Jew on the planet. They mainly wanted them out of their country.

ahh...so Germany DID have the right to declare all 600,000 German Jews "enemies of the state", and kick them out of the country?

what about the Jews of Italy, Hungary, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Poland, ect. etc?

what crime did THESE Jews commit?

 

[kageki]

Kageki this is a really important point that you keep skipping around.

and more to the point, even if there wasn't a 'final plan' at the beginning of the holocaust, the reality sure as hell unfolded that way.

I mean your statements on here seem to be of the idea that Nazis have a right to be really pissed off because they accidentally contributed to the death of millions of people.

seriously? the poor misunderstood Nazis. sniffle.

I'm sure there were some atrocities committed by Germans and I don't condone that. It was still a war and other countries were involved.

Even the open pit cremations are being debated.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-08-46.asp

GENERAL R. A. RUDENKO (Chief Prosecutor for the U.S.SR.)

I will now quote an extract of the appeal to the public opinion of the world from the
representatives of several thousand former internees at Auschwitz:

"The gassing of unbelievable numbers of people took place upon the arrival of
transports from various countries: France, Belgium, Holland, Greece, Italy, Hungary,
Czechoslovakia, Germany, Poland, the U.S.S.R., Norway, and others. The new arrivals
had to pass before an SS doctor or else before the SS commandant of the camp. The
latter pointed his finger to the right or left. The left meant death by gas. Out of a
transport of 1,500, an average of 1,200 to 1,300 were immediately to be gassed.
Rarely the quota of people sent into the camp was a little higher. It often occurred
that the SS doctors Mengele and Thilo performed this selection while whistling a
lively tune. The people destined to be gassed were obliged to strip in front of the
gas-chambers, after which they were driven with whips into the gas-chambers. Then the
door of the underground gas-chamber was closed, and the people were gassed. Death
occurred approximately 4 minutes later. After 8 minutes the gas chamber was opened,
and workmen belonging to a special commando, the so-called Sonderkommando,
transported the bodies to the cremation ovens which burned day and night.
"There was a shortage of ovens at the time of the arrival of transports from Hungary;
consequently enormous ditches were dug for the purpose of cremating the bodies. Fires
made of wood soaked in gasoline were laid in these ditches and the bodies were thrown
into them. However, the SS men frequently hurled live children and adults into those
ditches, where these unhappy victims died a terrible death. To save gasoline, the
fats and oils necessary for cremations were partly derived
[]
from the bodies of gassed people. Fats and oils for technical purposes and for the
manufacture of soap were also obtained from the corpses.

The appeal ends with the following words:

"Together with 10,000 rescued inmates of all nationalities, we demand that the crimes
and the inconceivable atrocities of the Hitlerites should not remain unpunished."

This just demand is supported by the entire civilized world and by all freedom-loving
people. The organized mass annihilation of prisoners of war constitutes one of the
vilest crimes of the Hitlerite conspirators.

Hurling live children and adults into burning pits? Did that really happen?

 

[Thunder]

Germany was not at war with a state called "Judea". But they acted as if every Jewish civilian was a soldier, worthy of death.

 

[Saggy]

Hurling live children and adults into burning pits? Did that really happen?

Well, it was reported recently in USA Today, so it must be true right ....

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-11-19-holocaust-papers_x.htm

in spite of the fact that it is preposterous and physically impossible. That is, it is impossible to throw people into a burning fire and not have them run out, but, amazingly the Jews didn't run, they just burned. That's why, when someone was burned at the stake, they were first tied to the stake. In addition, it's impossible to cremate a body in a pit because the fire cannot get the required O2. That's why bodies are cremated on pyres, not in pits.

The point is that the holohoax is preposterous. And yet it is repeated incessantly in the media, in politics, and in academia.

 

[truethat]

I'm sure there were some atrocities committed by Germans and I don't condone that. It was still a war and other countries were involved.

Even the open pit cremations are being debated.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-08-46.asp


Hurling live children and adults into burning pits? Did that really happen?

Again, I am not mentioning the cremation or gassing. Why? There has been sufficient evidence to understand why someone would doubt or be suspicious about these stories.

However

you say the bolded above and then dismiss it quickly to move on to the more controversial claims.

But let's stay there for a minute.

What atrocities, DO you believe happened? Why do you dismiss these as if it is no big deal. You seem to suggest that when other countries have done the same thing, it is given a free pass. This is certainly not true at all. Pol Pot for example is treated the same way Hitler and Stalin and others have been treated.

Why do you pretend that this is not so?

 

[truethat]

Well, it was reported recently in USA Today, so it must be true right ....

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-11-19-holocaust-papers_x.htm

in spite of the fact that it is preposterous and physically impossible. That is, it is impossible to throw people into a burning fire and not have them run out, but, amazingly the Jews didn't run, they just burned. That's why, when someone was burned at the stake, they were first tied to the stake. In addition, it's impossible to cremate a body in a pit because the fire cannot get the required O2. That's why bodies are cremated on pyres, not in pits.

The point is that the holohoax is preposterous. And yet it is repeated incessantly in the media, in politics, and in academia.

I haven't seen anyone on this thread mention cremation pits except for you and Kageki. Is this a new strategy, you refute your own claims? LOL

 

[kageki]

Again, I am not mentioning the cremation or gassing. Why? There has been sufficient evidence to understand why someone would doubt or be suspicious about these stories.

However

you say the bolded above and then dismiss it quickly to move on to the more controversial claims.

But let's stay there for a minute.

What atrocities, DO you believe happened? Why do you dismiss these as if it is no big deal. You seem to suggest that when other countries have done the same thing, it is given a free pass. This is certainly not true at all. Pol Pot for example is treated the same way Hitler and Stalin and others have been treated.

Why do you pretend that this is not so?

Well the main issue is whether those gassings or cremations happened so it sounds like you are a revisionist.

 

[truethat]

Well the main issue is whether those gassings or cremations happened so it sounds like you are a revisionist.

No, the main issue for YOU is whether those gassings or cremations happened. I've stated from the very beginning, 'what difference does it make?" and you have been unable to answer the question.

to me if 6 million people died at the hands of the Nazis in ways that included gassing, cremation, shooting, starvation, exposure to typhus, ( I do hope you are aware that sending someone to a camp with a typhus epidemic is tantamount to deliberate murder) is just as bad as if

4 million people died at the hnads of the Nazis in ways that included, shooting, starvation, starvation, exposure to typhus etc.

I keep asking you what difference it makes to you and you seem to be suggesting that it's a different thing completely.

Also. You might not be aware of the Halakhah
http://www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm


This would also contribute to the importance of researching the people who had survived, the methods of death etc, in ways that were slightly different than other war atrocities. Basically this would have to do with a woman who had been in the camp and thought that her husband had died.

Back then you could sort of make an exception if a man remarried after the Holocaust and later found out that their wife was actually still alive.

However, if a woman remarried and then her husband turned up still alive, then she was considered to have committed adultery. In addition any child she had with the new husband were now considered "bastards' and according to the law a bastard could only marry a bastard. So for this reason it was very important to determine who died in the camp.

It would be very bad to suggest that someone had died and then to have them turn up later.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0870682962/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&condition=all

You might want to read up on it. I would wager you have never even heard of this before.

 

[TSR]

Well the main issue is whether those gassings or cremations happened so it sounds like you are a revisionist.

.
You seem to have missed my post entirely, so here's the key point again:



I f
I
r e m o v e
y o u
f r o m
y o u r
h o m e
w h e r e
y o u
a r e
d o i n g
n o
h a r m
a n d
s e n d
y o u
t o
a
c a m p
w h e r e
I
* k n o w *
t h e
c o n d i t i o n s
a r e
s u c h
t h a t
y o u
w i l l
d i e ,
i t
d o e s n ' t
m a t t e r
t h e
e x a c t
n a t u r e
o f
t h a t
d e a t h .


To go further:


S i n c e
a t
l e a s t
h a l f
o f
t h o s e
k i l l e d
w e r e
s h o t
i n
t h e
h e a d
a n d
d u m p e d
i n t o
m a s s
g r a v e s ,
r e p o r t s
o f
w h i c h
w e r e
s e n t
b a c k
t o
h e a d q u a r t e r s ,
( t h u s
m a k i n g
t h e m
n o t
" a t r o c i t i e s "
b u t
p o l i c y )
w h y
i s
t h e
" m a i n
i s s u e "
t h e
g a s
c h a m b e r s ?
.

Got the backbone to substantively respond, or are you going to continue to run?

 

[kageki]

No, the main issue for YOU is whether those gassings or cremations happened. I've stated from the very beginning, 'what difference does it make?" and you have been unable to answer the question.

to me if 6 million people died at the hands of the Nazis in ways that included gassing, cremation, shooting, starvation, exposure to typhus, ( I do hope you are aware that sending someone to a camp with a typhus epidemic is tantamount to deliberate murder) is just as bad as if

4 million people died at the hnads of the Nazis in ways that included, shooting, starvation, starvation, exposure to typhus etc.

I keep asking you what difference it makes to you and you seem to be suggesting that it's a different thing completely.

Also. You might not be aware of the Halakhah
http://www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm


This would also contribute to the importance of researching the people who had survived, the methods of death etc, in ways that were slightly different than other war atrocities. Basically this would have to do with a woman who had been in the camp and thought that her husband had died.

Back then you could sort of make an exception if a man remarried after the Holocaust and later found out that their wife was actually still alive.

However, if a woman remarried and then her husband turned up still alive, then she was considered to have committed adultery. In addition any child she had with the new husband were now considered "bastards' and according to the law a bastard could only marry a bastard. So for this reason it was very important to determine who died in the camp.

It would be very bad to suggest that someone had died and then to have them turn up later.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0870682962/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&condition=all

You might want to read up on it. I would wager you have never even heard of this before.

I answered your question long ago.

It's also not just 6 million people. It's 6 million Jews and it probably wasn't even 6 million.

The Nazis did not deliberately expose people to typhus. They wouldn't have bothered to delouse if that was the case.

So your point is that the Halakh only cares to determine if someone died or not. Not how. This has no relevance to the discussion. The main issue of Holocaust denial is the gas chambers so if you don't want to discuss that then there isn't much more point to this thread. The usual distractions and evasions have had it's course.

 

[truethat]

I answered your question long ago.

It's also not just 6 million people. It's 6 million Jews and it probably wasn't even 6 million.

The Nazis did not deliberately expose people to typhus. They wouldn't have bothered to delouse if that was the case.

So your point is that the Halakh only cares to determine if someone died or not. Not how. This has no relevance to the discussion. The main issue of Holocaust denial is the gas chambers so if you don't want to discuss that then there isn't much more point to this thread. The usual distractions and evasions have had it's course.

No that isn't my point. It has nothing to do with what the Halakhah cares about in how they died. Rather it has to do with how important it was to be SURE that a husband had died. Once again, try to think. My point is, if a woman was told that her husband "died in the gas chambers" etc. and he didn't, it would create a huge problem for religious reasons. A bastard is only allowed to marry another bastard in some Jewish beliefs, and so if the son of a woman whose husband turned up not dead after all, had married a non bastard he would have to get a divorce. It was a very big deal to be sure who died.

Because of this great efforts were made to be sure that there were some sort of documentation or witnessing of the likelihood of someone's death. They didn't issue death certificates in the camps for every prisoner who had died. Therefor an observant Jewish wife would find herself in the middle of a huge problem when moving on in her life if she wasn't very sure that her husband had died.

Because of this issue we probably have much more documentation of witnessess during the Holocaust, than any other event like it.

And so this is why there is so much testimony. Which you completely disregard.

And typhus epidemics are very common in prisons, but they ultimately lead to death especially among weak people.

So YES sending people to the camps was the equivalent to sending them to their death. You have seen the pictures of the prisoners at Auschwitz, I seriously hope your argument is NOT that the Nazis had no reason to suspect they would die?

Of course they would die.

 

[TSR]

It's also not just 6 million people. It's 6 million Jews and it probably wasn't even 6 million.

.
Ah, so no one else was shipped to the camps for any reason, and if they were, they didn't die there.

Good to know -- can you please explain all those missing Roma, gays, Poles and POWs? (Please note: list not inclusive, nor was it meant to be)

We'll be waiting right here, but we won't be holding our breath.
.

 

[truethat]

See what little you know Kageki is quite sad. This is why you think everyone else knows nothing. Because you have no idea yourself. I am glad you are asking these questions so that other "fence sitter' deniers can see how really far away from the truth these sorts of denials are.

Aguna

Agunah
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
"Aguna" redirects here. For the genus of skipper butterfly, see Aguna (butterfly).

Agunah (Hebrew: עגונה‎, plural: agunot (עגונות); literally 'anchored or chained') is a halachic term for a Jewish woman who is "chained" to her marriage. It is also often used nowadays for a woman whose husband refuses or is unable to grant her an official bill of divorce, known as a get.

For a divorce to be effective, Jewish law requires that a man grant his wife a get of his own free will. Without a get or a heter aguna (permission by a halachic authority based on a decision that her husband is presumed dead) no new marriage will be recognized, and any children she might have with another man would be considered illegitimate.

Because of the difficulty of the situation for women in such situations, it has been a task for every generation of halachic authorities to try to find halachically acceptable means to permit such women to remarry. In the past it was somewhat commonplace, due to the danger of travel, for people leaving home never to be heard of again; as such, rabbis have had to deal with this issue on a constant basis. Over the past few centuries, thousands of responsa have been written to deal with cases of agunot.

In the past, most aguna cases were due to a husband dying without leaving clear evidence of his demise, or becoming mentally ill (insane). Nowadays many aguna cases arise as a result of a husband withholding a get in order to extort money or extract a more favorable divorce settlement or to get even with his wife. In response, aguna groups have organized to support these women and try to find a solution to this problem. Various remedies have been proposed, but as yet, no one solution has common acceptance. Nevertheless, the Prenuptial Agreement for the Prevention of Get-Refusal is one remedy which is in use in Jewish communities worldwide and is accepted by halachic authorities.

While it is widely assumed that the problem lies primarily in men refusing to grant their wives a get, and that it is a widespread issue; in Israel, figures released from the chief rabbinate suggest that men are refused divorce in equal numbers, and that the numbers are actually a couple of hundred on each side.[1] Nevertheless,

"A woman suffers more in this situation, as she is Biblically forbidden to marry again, and children she might bear to another man would be considered mamzerim (bastards) according to Halakhah [Jewish Law]. A man is similarly not permitted to marry before being divorced, but the ban is much less severe, and in any event his future children will not be considered illegitimate."[2]

I bet you have never even heard of this and had no idea this is why there is so much documentation.

 

[Thunder]

I would like to know how Kageki can actually justify Nazi Germany deciding that all 600,000 German Jews were enemies of the state, and had to be "punished".

Then, I'd like to know how Kageki can justify the Nazis going throughout Europe, and deciding that all European Jews were enemies, and had to be "punished".

 

[kageki]

See what little you know Kageki is quite sad. This is why you think everyone else knows nothing. Because you have no idea yourself. I am glad you are asking these questions so that other "fence sitter' deniers can see how really far away from the truth these sorts of denials are.

Aguna



I bet you have never even heard of this and had no idea this is why there is so much documentation.

I don't see how this proves the gas chambers.

 

[truethat]

Here's more about it Kageki

According to most rabbis, reasonable circumstantial evidence is sufficient to prove the death of the husband, and no direct testimony is required. This is based, among other things, on the talmudic assertion: "The Rabbis taught: 'If he fell into a lion's den, [bring witnesses to] testify [that he is dead], if he fell into a ditch of snakes and scorpions - [there is] no [need] to testify [that he is dead]'" (Babylonian Talmud, Yevamot 121a). In other words, if it is known that the man fell into a ditch of snakes and scorpions and did not come out, it can be assumed that he is dead, and there is no need for further evidence (unlike falling into a lion's den where there is still a slight chance of survival). If, however, it is later discovered that the husband is not dead, the woman will find herself in particularly bad circumstances: her children from her second marriage will be considered mamzerim (bastards), and she will be forced to divorce both her first and second husbands, subject to the halachic ruling that an adulterous woman "is forbidden to her husband and the man with whom she fornicated". While such situations are extremely rare under normal circumstances, they did occur in the aftermath of the Holocaust and also occurred frequently in the wake of pogroms and other forms of persecution.

The reason the Holocaust has so much documentation as to the method of death, that in a way would stand out compared to other pogroms and camps and war atrocities, is that they had to determine if the husband had fallen into a Lion's den, or a Pit of Snakes.

A pit of snakes and scorpions would pretty much suggest no possible survival. A Lion's den 'maybe."

Because families were broken up, much effort was made to determine the likelihood of death. Obviously you are not a religious Jew so you might think these are silly traditions, but believe me it is taken very seriously.

And this is part of why the gas chambers came out, because people KNEW that if they went "to the right" they were gassed (a snake and scorpion pit) and if they went to the left they went to the lions den.

Even if the holocaust wasn't intended to be an intentional extermination of all Jews, the evidence discovered by trying to sort out who died, was one of the reasons we came to know so much about it.

 

[truethat]

I don't see how this proves the gas chambers.

I know you don't puppy. Keep trying.


Basically the documentation was done in a very precise way which was unlike other similar events in history.

Ironically it was their religious beliefs that caused the details to come out through witnesses.

Imagine that.

 

[kageki]

I know you don't puppy. Keep trying.


Basically the documentation was done in a very precise way which was unlike other similar events in history.

Ironically it was their religious beliefs that caused the details to come out through witnesses.

Imagine that.

What documentation are you referring to?

Such as how the Nazis hurled live children and adults into burning pits?

 

[truethat]

What documentation are you referring to?

Such as how the Nazis hurled live children and adults into burning pits?

No, documentation to the certainty of death. Which I'm sure that until about 10 minutes ago you had never heard of.

This is why I said to you earlier in the thread that you are simply picking up a 'new" version of what happened and sucking up everything that version says.

It is within reason to expect that sick prisoners may have misunderstood things they were seeing.

For example if a body was flung into a pit as an attempt to handle the corpses the trauma of seeing this brutal reality could have caused a false memory.

This happens all the time. In all your posts I've not seen a whit of human sympathy to the atrocity of being kept prisoner and watching thousands of people around you die every week.

It's horrible. If there were mixed up memories it would certainly be understandable no?

And yet you present this as "evidence" of a conspiracy to spread a huge lie. It's a little silly after a while.

Are you dealing with reality or some "Star Wars" version of what happened in the camps?

It was not Hogan's Heros.