General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[IDB87]

I said "hear hear", because for the most part I agree with him.

Bikerdruid's use of the term bigot was an unfounded attack on Virus' character. What he said was in no way bigoted, and it was quite the slander to label him a bigot because of it. You saying "Here here" shows your ignorance on the definition and usage of the term.

That's all.

 

[Thunder]

You saying "Here here" shows your ignorance on the definition and usage of the term.

That's all.

so that's it? you're not going to answer my question?

you're just going to claim that its not bigoted to accuse Islam of inspiring violence & racism...

....but you will NOT say whether its bigoted to accuse Judaism of inspiring theft, dishonesty, treason, cheating, and racism?

wow. talk about an evasion.

 

[IDB87]

so that's it? you're not going to answer my question?

you're just going to claim that its not bigoted to accuse Islam of inspiring violence & racism...

....but you will NOT say whether its bigoted to accuse Judaism of inspiring theft, dishonesty, treason, cheating, and racism?

wow. talk about an evasion.

*ETA post #279

There is something in the teachings of Judiasm that enables the nutbag settlers of the West Bank to commit the crimes they do. If that's where we start with the faults of Judiasm, I would say it's not off to a good start.

Shelo asani goy; shelo asani aved; shelo asani isha

 

[Thunder]

There is something in the teachings of Judiasm that enables the nutbag settlers of the West Bank to commit the crimes they do. If that's where we start with the faults of Judiasm, I would say it's not off to a good start.

Shelo asani goy; shelo asani aved; shelo asani isha

Ok, I am gonna just accept this means that you do NOT find it bigotry to accuse Judaism of promoting theft, lies, racist, treason, etc etc.

I mean, since you won't answer the question with a simple yes or no, what else can I do?

 

[IDB87]

I mean, since you won't answer the question with a simple yes or no, what else can I do?

For starters you can link to someone who actually claims "It is OK for Jews to lie to goys, to steal from them, to hold dual citizen ship, and to commit treason."

And you can also disprove it by quoting the relevant passages of the Torrah, or perhaps an authority that debunks those claims.

But yes, that is something an Anti-Semite would say. It'd be very easy to disprove, wouldn't it?

In Islam, it is taught that someone who dies in jihad will become a martyr and go straight to heaven - this enables members of poor Islamic societies to gravitate towards martyrdom. How is it bigotry to point that out?

*ETA

Lying and stealing, even if it were to be promoted in the Torrah or other religious texts, would be near impossible to separate from human nature; it is something, after all, that we all have done and can do rather easily. To say that Judaism enables this is quite the stretch, even if it's written down.

With Treason - I haven't heard of Jews regularly committing treason. Have you? Dual-citizenship is along the same lines as treason if you are trying to prove it.

For a Muslim fanatic to destroy themselves and murder dozens of others on God's command (see: Martydom in the Quran) is evil and goes against human nature (self preservation), and while not even close to all Muslims would ever consider doing it, it is not bigotry to point out that it is encouraged in the Quran.

 

[Thunder]

But yes, that is something an Anti-Semite would say.

thank you. I am glad that we agree that claiming Judaism teaches/motivates to be racist, thieves, cheats, and traitors, is indeed a bigoted statement and bigoted attitude.

In Islam, it is taught that someone who dies in jihad will become a martyr and go straight to heaven - this enables members of poor Islamic societies to gravitate towards martyrdom. How is it bigotry to point that out?

you are moving the goalposts. first you claimed that:

"Since religion (Islam in this case) leads to violent, racist, brutal and other negative behavior, it is not bigotry to point that fact out."

..then you stated:

"No, saying all Muslims are violent racists and commit negative behavior is bigotry. Saying that Islam enables (and often encourages) people to do so is not."

..and now you're saying:

"In Islam, it is taught that someone who dies in jihad will become a martyr and go straight to heaven - this enables members of poor Islamic societies to gravitate towards martyrdom. How is it bigotry to point that out?"

so....which is it?

how is it bigoted to accuse Judaism of inspiring & motivating evil & negative behaviors, but it is NOT bigoted to accuse Islam of the same thing?

do you REALLY believe that Islam leads to violence, racism, & brutality?

and if you do, then how do you explain all the hundreds of millions of non-violent, non-racist, and non-brutal Muslims?

...and honestly, WHY do you excuse attacks against Islam..but NOT against Judaism? is one form of bigotry ok, but another is not?

 

[IDB87]

so....which is it?

None of that is moving any sort of goalpost.

It is highlighted that religions ENABLE people (who so choose) to commit horrible acts of violence and racism and this is pointed out. To say that "All Muslims" will become suicide bombers is like saying "All Jews will become Messianic nutbags that steal land." It's bigotry to say that. However, if a Jew or Muslim so chooses, they can find biblical authority to do so.

how is it bigoted to accuse Judaism of inspiring & motivating evil & negative behaviors, but it is NOT bigoted to accuse Islam of the same thing?

I never said those things were not promoted in Judaism, because I don't know- it's not something that can be easily looked up in 5 minutes. If that claim was made by someone (if untrue) it could be refuted by quoting the relevant texts and authorities. However, since I never made this claim, or anyone else for that matter (outside of MagZ and nein/11), I fail to see the relevance.

do you REALLY believe that Islam leads to violence, racism, & brutality?

Using Taliban Afghanistan as a reference point: Yes. Watching the parties of God destroy each other in Iraq: Yes. Watching Iran hang homosexuals and rape women (because you can't execute virgins in Islam): yes.

and if you do, then how do you explain all the hundreds of millions of non-violent, non-racist, and non-brutal Muslims?

They are good people in spite of their religion. After all, a child is not a murderous sadist until they can understand the Quran.

...and hoenstly, WHY do you excuse attacks against Islam..but NOT against Judaism?

I don't think I've ever excused attacks against Judiasm. I think it's bigoted when someone says "Jews will do X". Like I think it's bigoted when someone will say "Muslims will do X".

 

[Thunder]

Using Taliban Afghanistan as a reference point: Yes. Watching the parties of God destroy each other in Iraq: Yes. Watching Iran hang homosexuals and rape women (because you can't execute virgins in Islam): yes.

ah, so then you find it perfectly acceptable to use the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Pogroms, the African Slave trade, and the centuries of utter brutality and horror in Europe, as proof that Christianity inspires and motivates violence, hatred, and brutality?

interesting.

I have a better idea: how about we just say that violent people, hateful people, and brutal people USE any religion they like, to justify & excuse their violence, hatred, and brutality.

can we just say that? cause honestly, suggesting that Islam or Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Taosim, Hinduism, etc..motivates and inspires negative behaviors and NOT love, kindness, honesty, generosity, and other positive behaviors, is just downright ignorant.

 

[Mycroft]

The issue is context.

If I say Islam enables violence and point to Mohammed Ali, then that's nuts. Clearly his boxing carreer has nothing to do with his religion. If I say Islam enables violence and point to the 9/11 hijackers, then there is a clear link between the religion and violence.

If I say Christianity leads to violence and point to the US war in Iraq, then there is a logical disconnect there, as the Iraqi war has nothing to do with Christianity. If I say Christianity leads to violence and then point to the Inquisition, then there is a clear link between the religion and the violence.

If I say Judaism enables stealing and point to Bernard Madoff, that doesn't make any sense because Madoff's motivation had nothing to do with his religion. If I say Judaism enables stealing and point to some fanatic who puts up a tent on some random hill in the West Bank, then there is a clear connection between his religion and his actions.

Now, do you agree that it is bigoted to say that "Judaism enables & often encourages theft, lies, cheating, treason, and feelings of superiority to non-Jews"?

The problem is you don't seem to understand the difference between putting the claim in context and just making the sweeping statement. You seem to relish in the opportunity to make sweeping bigoted statements while simultaneously decrying the behavior in others.

 

[Thunder]

I have evidence that Islam motivates kindness, generosity, and friendship, for the kindest and most generous people I know just happen to be Muslims.

 

[IDB87]

ah, so then you find it perfectly acceptable to use the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Pogroms, the African Slave trade, and the centuries of utter brutality and horror in Europe, as proof that Christianity inspires and motivates violence, hatred, and brutality?

Current events, Thunder. The things I listed are happening now.

Christianity has for the most part been reigned in and had its' fangs removed. Given the opportunity, I can see them reverting back to such barbarism.

I have a better idea: how about we just say that violent people, hateful people, and brutal people USE any religion they like, to justify & excuse their violence, hatred, and brutality.

Because it may not be evil people doing these things. It can be an innocent child who loses his father during war and thinks it is his religious duty (and a moral thing) to avenge him by blowing himself up on a bus. Normally moral people act in immoral ways when it comes to religion.

can we just say that? cause honestly, suggesting that Islam or Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Taosim, Hinduism, etc..motivates and inspires negative behaviors and NOT love, kindness, honesty, generosity, and other positive behaviors, is just downright ignorant.

To think other wise is to be naive.

 

[IDB87]

I have evidence that Islam motivates kindness, generosity, and friendship, for the kindest and most generous people I know just happen to be Muslims.

Religion gets its morality from us, not the other way around. To say people need the teachings of Allah in order to be good is to insult humanity.

 

[Thunder]

Christianity has for the most part been reigned in and had its' fangs removed.

look the fact is, for every Muslim who acts violent and hateful, there are 100 more who just mind their own business and do the right thing.

 

[Thunder]

Religion gets its morality from us, not the other way around. To say people need the teachings of Allah in order to be good is to insult humanity.

and yet, many Christians believe that without Jesus there is no reason to be moral and just.

....but for some reason, I am pretty darn moral and just, even though I have no "God" in my life.

 

[IDB87]

look the fact is, for every Muslim who acts violent and hateful, there are 100 more who just mind their own business and do the right thing.

And that's great! But we're not talking about the majority who mind their own business. We're talking about the minority who follow their religious teachings to the T.

 

[Thunder]

And that's great! But we're not talking about the majority who mind their own business. We're talking about the minority who follow their religious teachings to the T.

So, Islamic fundamentalists, Muslim extremists, Jihadists, whatever you wish to call them...are the TRUE followers of Islam?

..interesting.

that's like saying Baruch Goldstein, Mayer Kahane, Yigal Amir, and ultra-religious settlers, are the TRUE followers of Judaism.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

state-owned television in the Middle East is a very special creature. it requires love, understanding, and patience.

Typical parky, tying yourself in knots to defend Hamas.

In the real world, state owned television reflects the will and attitudes of the government of the state that owns it. "Love, understanding and patience" are not the appropriate response to a childrens television show host who advocates the consumption of human flesh.

 

[IDB87]

So, Islamic fundamentalists, Muslim extremists, Jihadists, whatever you wish to call them...are the TRUE followers of Islam?

Hard to say (and something I never did).

It could be the majority who live a life of peace simply want to do just that, and would do it regardless of their religious denomination.

The minority who find reasons in their texts to commit atrocities for some kind of reward may want to do just that kind of thing with their lives.

Who is a true follower of an inherently false religion anyway?

ETA*

I think it was Christopher Hitchens who was talking to a Christian aid worker in Africa about the LRA, and when asked who the "True" Christian was, the aid worker couldn't answer because it wasn't for him to say.

In other words, it's a non sequitur.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

So, Islamic fundamentalists, Muslim extremists, Jihadists, whatever you wish to call them...are the TRUE followers of Islam?

They are the ones who are the threat. it's their brand of islam that is the problem.

 

[IDB87]

delete