My argument against materialism

[Lowpro]

Finally, my signature is worth something for this argument!

 

[annnnoid]

Truly amazing how so many skeptics can state with such certainty that ‘the mind is this, the brain is that’…when, in actual fact, the scientific world is a long way from establishing the true nature of the brain/mind. Do JREF skeptics know something that the cog-sci laboratories of the world do not? Perhaps you might share some evidence of these revelations, a few links perhaps. I’ve got subscriptions to a few weekly online science journals and I certainly haven’t read anything about a breakthrough in consciousness research.

…but I have to say Pixy…I do like the old ‘machine’ analogy. First thing I do when I wake up in the morning is go and have a good heart-to-heart with my lawn mower. And just the other day out of my toaster popped a piece of bread upon which was written “…think twice before unplugging me…I am meaning and purpose…know this…” How monumentally conceited to imagine there’s anything at all special about human beings.

Punshhh….skeptics take a disparaging view about things beyond scientific understanding because, for the most part, they don’t have a clue how there could be anything beyond scientific understanding. The brute dilemma being, of course, that they themselves are utterly beyond scientific understanding (horrors!). And what does this simple fact mean?...it means that skeptics, just like every other human being who lives or who ever has…. live in and through an understanding of their life and the world which is not, in fact, the truth. Skeptics are religious too. Choke, gasp, splutter, spit, puke….No f’in way dude. Yup, says so right there….and there…and there…and there…and there….and everywhere. Ignorance is bliss though (delusion anyone?), so please continue.

IOW…you can call yourself a machine (or how about a different word…how about flying spaghetti monster…!) till you’re blue in the face Pixy, you still don’t know what it means. It’s not an opinion. It’s an indisputable fact. I’ll even fight ya over it. How do I know you’ll lose? Yellow, that’s how (…and why do you suppose that is?).

No no no no no no no no. burble burble burble burble glurg. But you can still talk to your lawn mower….it actually IS just a machine and therefore cannot ever encounter that peculiar thing called an ‘identity crisis’ (…it’s kind of a human thing…y’know….as in, NOT machine).

 

[SusanB-M1]

#1136 punshhh

...the purpose of my argument is to try and tease out the meaning of unbounded in respect of "finite but unbounded".

I would be interested to know what you hope to achieve by this?

ETA Reading on through the posts, I see that you would like to tie hinduism into up-to-date science, but it will never work! Enjoying fantasy and 'what-if' ideas must have been a survival strategy during human development, but it isn't reality ... as others have said with far more eloquence. If you adjust your desire to integrate fantasy with reality and, instead, keep it in a colourful, wonderful, imaginative world in your brain and also really come to terms with the facts of living and dying etc, then your life and experiences will be seen clearly, valued correctly and will hugely enhance every day. This has been my experience, although the reading of anything like mysticism etc never came near becoming a central reality in my life.

 

[PixyMisa]

Truly amazing how so many skeptics can state with such certainty that ‘the mind is this, the brain is that’…when, in actual fact, the scientific world is a long way from establishing the true nature of the brain/mind.

Nope.

Do JREF skeptics know something that the cog-sci laboratories of the world do not?

Nope.

Perhaps you might share some evidence of these revelations, a few links perhaps. I’ve got subscriptions to a few weekly online science journals and I certainly haven’t read anything about a breakthrough in consciousness research.

What breakthrough? This is old stuff that is understood by everyone.

…but I have to say Pixy…I do like the old ‘machine’ analogy. First thing I do when I wake up in the morning is go and have a good heart-to-heart with my lawn mower. And just the other day out of my toaster popped a piece of bread upon which was written “…think twice before unplugging me…I am meaning and purpose…know this…”

You should see a doctor about that.

How monumentally conceited to imagine there’s anything at all special about human beings.

Well, yes. You got that part right somehow.

 

[PixyMisa]

#1136 punshhh

I would be interested to know what you hope to achieve by this?

Particularly when Robin has already explained it very carefully... And repeatedly.

 

[tsig]

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.

Dao De Zhing
Gia Fu Feng

The name for the eternal name is delusion.

 

[tsig]

I see your point, its not just my twaddle thats twaddle, everything is twaddle.

The Hindus have a word for it "chitta", ie, chitta chatta.

Its all a human mind can achieve through thought alone.

That's we we have hands.

 

[punshhh]

Particularly when Robin has already explained it very carefully... And repeatedly.

There's that conflict again, you can try to entice me into some kind of argument in defence of my ideology until your blue in the face.

I found Robin's posts challenging and constructive, I have no argument with anything he said, that I am aware of.

He declared that if through reason alone his position became untenable he would relinquish it. I respect this approach and would like to second it,

this is and always will be my approach

Are you going to join us pixy?

 

[punshhh]

The name for the eternal name is delusion.

You need to correct your spelling of delusion, it goes more like this;

de...lusion

de...illusion

the...illusion

All is illusion

That sounds better, there is only a difference in pronunciation between us.

 

[punshhh]

Truly amazing how so many skeptics can state with such certainty that ‘the mind is this, the brain is that’…when, in actual fact, the scientific world is a long way from establishing the true nature of the brain/mind. Do JREF skeptics know something that the cog-sci laboratories of the world do not? Perhaps you might share some evidence of these revelations, a few links perhaps. I’ve got subscriptions to a few weekly online science journals and I certainly haven’t read anything about a breakthrough in consciousness research.

…but I have to say Pixy…I do like the old ‘machine’ analogy. First thing I do when I wake up in the morning is go and have a good heart-to-heart with my lawn mower. And just the other day out of my toaster popped a piece of bread upon which was written “…think twice before unplugging me…I am meaning and purpose…know this…” How monumentally conceited to imagine there’s anything at all special about human beings.

Punshhh….skeptics take a disparaging view about things beyond scientific understanding because, for the most part, they don’t have a clue how there could be anything beyond scientific understanding. The brute dilemma being, of course, that they themselves are utterly beyond scientific understanding (horrors!). And what does this simple fact mean?...it means that skeptics, just like every other human being who lives or who ever has…. live in and through an understanding of their life and the world which is not, in fact, the truth. Skeptics are religious too. Choke, gasp, splutter, spit, puke….No f’in way dude. Yup, says so right there….and there…and there…and there…and there….and everywhere. Ignorance is bliss though (delusion anyone?), so please continue.

IOW…you can call yourself a machine (or how about a different word…how about flying spaghetti monster…!) till you’re blue in the face Pixy, you still don’t know what it means. It’s not an opinion. It’s an indisputable fact. I’ll even fight ya over it. How do I know you’ll lose? Yellow, that’s how (…and why do you suppose that is?).

No no no no no no no no. burble burble burble burble glurg. But you can still talk to your lawn mower….it actually IS just a machine and therefore cannot ever encounter that peculiar thing called an ‘identity crisis’ (…it’s kind of a human thing…y’know….as in, NOT machine).

It feels like we are witnessing the birth of a new secularism

 

[punshhh]

#1136 punshhh

I would be interested to know what you hope to achieve by this?

ETA Reading on through the posts, I see that you would like to tie hinduism into up-to-date science, but it will never work! Enjoying fantasy and 'what-if' ideas must have been a survival strategy during human development, but it isn't reality ... as others have said with far more eloquence. If you adjust your desire to integrate fantasy with reality and, instead, keep it in a colourful, wonderful, imaginative world in your brain and also really come to terms with the facts of living and dying etc, then your life and experiences will be seen clearly, valued correctly and will hugely enhance every day. This has been my experience, although the reading of anything like mysticism etc never came near becoming a central reality in my life.

Yes that is how I formulated my approach in this thread, it was very difficult to find any argument with materialism from my position, I am in almost entire agreement with it.
However if there is any argument, it is that I cannot accept the apparently blinkered approach to any reality outside or which does not conform to its pronouncements.

On consideration of your previous post to me, I was thinking that all anyone can do if they want to find their own way in life rather than follow an ideology. Is come to terms with their position in the world and come to some intellectual "accomodation" with them self, which works for them.

You have clearly been successful in this regard, I am in a similar position regarding my personal independence.

However, I am by nature a seeker for truth and meaning. This is what fascinates and motivates me more than most other things and is probably the impulse which resulted in my presence here.

 

[punshhh]

No more than Harry Potter is in conflict with Niels Bohr.

I would put it the other way round as it is the materialists who appear to be in conflict with someone.

So Niels Bohr would be in conflict with Harry Potter.

 

[punshhh]

The mind does not exist except as brain events. There is no mind.

So thats what pixy was getting so exercised about.

I see, there is no mind, but lets just keep calling it the mind anyway and allow it some mental faculties.

Rather than being honest and labeling it the brain with the illusion of thought.

 

[punshhh]

The mind is the shadow of the brain, it does not exist .

The specter at the feast?

 

[punshhh]

Do you believe that we are in the fifty first year of the present Brahma's life?

I only use hinduism as a source of ideas, along with many other sources including science.

 

[Mashuna]

I would put it the other way round as it is the materialists who appear to be in conflict with someone.

So Niels Bohr would be in conflict with Harry Potter.

The concepts conflit. Just check which one most accurately describes our experience of reality. The best method found for doing so is science.

 

[Belz...]

It sounds as though your purpose here is to over turn my beliefs, rather than educate.

You mean now, or the several posts I did make earlier trying to get you to educate yourself ?

You have shown an inability or unwillingness to abandon your preconceived beliefs. As such there is nothing you'll get from me but ridicule until you change that stance.

 

[Belz...]

I am not prepaired to reveal my primary source material

Of course not. Otherwise we may be able to show you that you're wrong. Can't have that, can we ?

This was through raja yoga meditation.

Well, if it's Raja meditation....

 

[Belz...]

Truly amazing how so many skeptics can state with such certainty that ‘the mind is this, the brain is that’…when, in actual fact, the scientific world is a long way from establishing the true nature of the brain/mind.

This is completely, absolutely wrong.

Fact of the matter is, YOU don't want to know.

 

[Dancing David]

Truly amazing how so many skeptics can state with such certainty that ‘the mind is this, the brain is that’…when, in actual fact, the scientific world is a long way from establishing the true nature of the brain/mind.

So show your cards, what evidence do you have of a mind absent a brain, any?

Do JREF skeptics know something that the cog-sci laboratories of the world do not? Perhaps you might share some evidence of these revelations, a few links perhaps. I’ve got subscriptions to a few weekly online science journals and I certainly haven’t read anything about a breakthrough in consciousness research.

Google 'visual perception research', I notice you haven't presented any evidence of a mystery.

…but I have to say Pixy…I do like the old ‘machine’ analogy. First thing I do when I wake up in the morning is go and have a good heart-to-heart with my lawn mower. And just the other day out of my toaster popped a piece of bread upon which was written “…think twice before unplugging me…I am meaning and purpose…know this…” How monumentally conceited to imagine there’s anything at all special about human beings.

Punshhh….skeptics take a disparaging view about things beyond scientific understanding because, for the most part, they don’t have a clue how there could be anything beyond scientific understanding.

Nice false dichotomy, overgeneralization and strawman combination.
was tehre a sale at the fallacy shop?

The brute dilemma being, of course, that they themselves are utterly beyond scientific understanding (horrors!).

Of just vague definitions and lack of writing things down, which leads to confirmation bias. People say that racism is true as well.

And what does this simple fact mean?...it means that skeptics, just like every other human being who lives or who ever has…. live in and through an understanding of their life and the world which is not, in fact, the truth.

Duh, already said that, but you aren't here to dsicuss are you?

Skeptics are religious too. Choke, gasp, splutter, spit, puke….No f’in way dude. Yup, says so right there….and there…and there…and there…and there….and everywhere. Ignorance is bliss though (delusion anyone?), so please continue.

IOW…you can call yourself a machine (or how about a different word…how about flying spaghetti monster…!) till you’re blue in the face Pixy, you still don’t know what it means. It’s not an opinion. It’s an indisputable fact. I’ll even fight ya over it. How do I know you’ll lose? Yellow, that’s how (…and why do you suppose that is?).

No no no no no no no no. burble burble burble burble glurg. But you can still talk to your lawn mower….it actually IS just a machine and therefore cannot ever encounter that peculiar thing called an ‘identity crisis’ (…it’s kind of a human thing…y’know….as in, NOT machine).

So you can't make coherent ideas either.