Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[truethat]

Then how did the Japanese end up in the US concentration camps? There was a reason for confiscating their property and sticking them in the middle of a desert right?

Sure I agree those Jews still deserve reparations, but for what reason are you suggesting?

Well the Japanese were rounded it because people were terrified they were inhouse spies, so to speak, for Japan, you know, that country that attacked Pearl Harbor. Wrong on behalf of the US but based on a perceived threat.

The jews were rounded up because they were also considered a perceived threat beeeeeeeeeeecaaaaaauuuuse................?

 

[kageki]

no, Auschwitz was a death camp built to kill millions of Jews, gays, Gypsies, and other "untermenschen".

Perhaps, but that wasn't the only reason.

There were also other kinds of people like Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, criminals and partisans.

 

[truethat]

Perhaps, but that wasn't the only reason.

There were also other kinds of people like Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, criminals and partisans.

Ok so what was the plan here? To round up all these people, (at's a lotta people) and have them hang out in work labor camps?

Why didn't they just leave them alone? What was the threat perceived?

 

[kageki]

Ok so what was the plan here? To round up all these people, (at's a lotta people) and have them hang out in work labor camps?

Why didn't they just leave them alone? What was the threat perceived?

Don't you think there is still a gap in the logic?

If the sole purpose was murder then why bother sending them there? The labor was meaningful and of value to wartime efforts.

 

[1337m4n]

More Roman Catholics died there than Jews.

So you're not denying that the Nazis were mass-murderous evildoers, just that they killed Jews?

 

[Dogzilla]

no, Auschwitz was a death camp built to kill millions of Jews, gays, Gypsies, and other "untermenschen".

Not according to those, you know, pesky historians who have studied the subject.

Millions? Really?

 

[BobHaulk]

I was near Auschwitz once on holiday but didn't go because i find the worship of this stuff to be disgusting and an insult to the dead.
It's a tragedy that anyone died in the war no matter who they are.

 

[TSR]

If the sole purpose was murder then why bother sending them there? The labor was meaningful and of value to wartime efforts.

.
It was not the sole purpose of the camps, there is no doubt that there were camps whose *primary* purpose was murder. Others simply worked their inmates to death as slave labour. Even those camps considered death camps often had labour camps associated with them.

Why send them there? Because shooting them one at a time (which accounts roughly half of those who died) was found to be too emotionally problematic for those doing the shooting. You know -- innocent women and children and all that.

Much easier on the troops to herd them into a room, and not have to personally witness their deaths -- and easier to dispose of the bodies so as to hide the crimes they knew they were committing.

Anyone that has read a book by an actual historian about the camps knows this, but I realize this excludes you.

Got any answers yet?
.

 

[TSR]

Not according to those, you know, pesky historians who have studied the subject.

.
... and who note that of the 48 camps which comprized the Auschwitz network of camps, only one was specially designed for mass murder: Auschwitz II, also known as Birkenau.

Of course, conditions sucked in the rest of the camps as well, resulting in an death toll much higher per capita than the civilian population surrounding the complex, but DZ is not prepared to tell us what these inmates had individually done to deserve serving as slaves and being worked to death.
.

 

[Nick Terry]

.
... and who note that of the 48 camps which comprized the Auschwitz network of camps, only one was specially designed for mass murder: Auschwitz II, also known as Birkenau.
.

Not even Birkenau was designed for mass murder, nor did it function purely as a mass murder camp.

 

[kageki]

.
It was not the sole purpose of the camps, there is no doubt that there were camps whose *primary* purpose was murder. Others simply worked their inmates to death as slave labour. Even those camps considered death camps often had labour camps associated with them.

Why send them there? Because shooting them one at a time (which accounts roughly half of those who died) was found to be too emotionally problematic for those doing the shooting. You know -- innocent women and children and all that.

Much easier on the troops to herd them into a room, and not have to personally witness their deaths -- and easier to dispose of the bodies so as to hide the crimes they knew they were committing.

Anyone that has read a book by an actual historian about the camps knows this, but I realize this excludes you.

Got any answers yet?
.

Looks like you have been called out on murder being the primary purpose.

That's part of the problem about the Holocaust story because they make it seem like the sole purpose was murder. I didn't even know Auschwitz was a labor camp. If to even concede there were other purposes such as for labor then it's a start.

I'm curious to know how they determined it was emotionally problematic then came up with gas chambers. Is there a document that explains that?

 

[Nick Terry]

That's part of the problem about the Holocaust story because they make it seem like the sole purpose was murder. I didn't even know Auschwitz was a labor camp. If to even concede there were other purposes such as for labor then it's a start.

Jesus Christ, you take part in these discussions and you didn't even know that? Seriously, do you realise how ignorant this makes you look? Do you even care?

"Auschwitz" was identified as both a labour camp (complex) and where extermination took place even before the end of the war, again in 1945 when it was liberated and every single time it has been the subject of legal investigations or historical research.

Even in 1942 when the Allies first called out the Nazi regime for what it was doing, there was a recognition that some were being spared for labour. Here's the UN declaration on the extermination of Jews from 17 December 1942.

"The attention of the Belgian, Czechoslovak, Greek, Jugoslav, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norwegian, Polish, Soviet, United Kingdom and United States Governments and also of the French National Committee has been drawn to numerous reports from Europe that the German authorities, not content with denying to persons of Jewish race in all the territories over which their barbarous rule has been extended, the most elementary human rights, are now carrying into effect Hitler’s oft-repeated intention to exterminate the Jewish people in Europe.
"From all the occupied countries Jews are being transported in conditions of appalling horror and brutality to Eastern Europe. In Poland, which has been made the principal Nazi slaughterhouse, the ghettos established by the German invaderare being systematically emptied of all Jews except a few highly skilled workers required for war industries. None of those taken away are ever heard of again. The able-bodied are slowly worked to death in labor camps. The infirm are left to die of exposure and starvation or are deliberately massacred in mass executions. The number of victims of these bloody cruelties is reckoned in many hundreds of thousands of entirely innocent men, women and children.
"The above-mentioned governments and the French National Committee condemn in the strongest possible terms this bestial policy of cold-blooded extermination. They declare that such events can only strengthen the resolve of all freedom-loving peoples to overthrow the barbarous Hitlerite tyranny. They reaffirm their solemn resolution to insure that those responsible for these crimes shall not escape retribution, and to press on with the necessary practical measures to this end. "-

 

[kageki]

Jesus Christ, you take part in these discussions and you didn't even know that? Seriously, do you realise how ignorant this makes you look? Do you even care?

"Auschwitz" was identified as both a labour camp (complex) and where extermination took place even before the end of the war, again in 1945 when it was liberated and every single time it has been the subject of legal investigations or historical research.

Even in 1942 when the Allies first called out the Nazi regime for what it was doing, there was a recognition that some were being spared for labour. Here's the UN declaration on the extermination of Jews from 17 December 1942.

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Edited for civility.

I know Auschwitz is a labor camp now, but what I meant was that I didn't know that before, growing up, when I was still essentially a de facto believer. Most people's knowledge consists of what they learn in high school. Most people don't go out of there way to read much of anything else besides what's assigned to them in school and that's most likely not original wartime reports or anything close to that. It's mostly just that history textbook and whatever your teacher decides to tell you. That back then I was not told that Auschwitz was a labor camp and pretty much anything else at all besides a vivid description of how Jews would all run up to the gas chamber door. Oh and that Nazis burned Jews alive. Well a teacher didn't tell me that. I don't know where I heard it. All I know is I heard it somewhere and grew up thinking about how Nazis were gruesomely burning Jews alive in ovens. You can only blame the public education system for my ignorance about the Holocaust then. I suppose all that matters is that I know that Jews were being gassed and burned alive in ovens.

 

[kageki]

I just like to point that the UN declaration does not mention gas chambers.

 

[Saggy]

So it is your argument that NO Jews were killed or exterminated during WW2? Do I understand you correctly?

Yes. No Jews were killed for being Jewish.

Because if you are saying that "more Catholics" died, what difference does it make?

The Catholics were not exterminated. No one claims they were exterminated or that the Nazis attempted to exterminate the European Catholics. Also, if you want to understand anything, you should exhibit some curiosity. You express no surprise that the Nazis wrote death certificates for prisoners that died and kept summary Death Books, and that these are available. You're not interested in the actual number that died there. How can that be?

Additionally if we forgo the entire "guilt" of the actual concentration camps and suggest that it was all just death from starvation, disease etc. Then we have to ask ourselves how the Jews wound up there in the first place.

The anti Jew campaigns in Nazi Germany are documented and well known. You can not deny these I hope? Therefor like the US internment of Japanese Americans during WW2, this was wrong and a violation of their rights. If the subsequent result of these issues led to death, then the Jews certainly have a right to receive reparations.

We know why the Nazis sent the Jews to the camps. You, and everyone else, is aware of the Nazi anti-Jew campaigns. Are you aware of the anti-Nazi campaigns of the Jews dating back to the mid thirties? For the headline see Hitler's Case Against the Jews here http://www.holohoax101.com/103/ I think most people would agree the Jews in the camps deserve reparations, on the order of those the US gave to the Japanese prisoners.

The issues in Israel have to do with it being considered an 'imago mundi' and holy land more so than anything to do with WW2. Any simple historical scholar knows that.

This is utter nonsense.

 

[dafydd]

1. Auschwitz was a sort of gulag type system primarily to help develop industry in the newly acquired additions to the Reich. Also to act as a transit point in the deportation of Jews and as a holding place for criminals, polish resistance and elements seen as hostile to the regime during wartime with the added benefits obtained from their labor.

2. Why were there deaths there? That exact extent of deaths is to me unclear. Some people were definitely executed for resistance activities and I have seen some documentation regarding some levels of typhus deaths. Presumably others died from other causes as well. The evidence I have seen does not support the level of deaths of the Death Books rediscovered in the 1990s. I believe Hans Aumeier in his first interrogation said the number of deaths during his time was around 3000. Later his memory was refreshed and he recalled homicidal gas chambers.

3. What gave the Nazis the right to interfere in other people's lives? What gives people the right to interfere in my life, your life or anybody's life? Because they had the power and could. This could be asked about thousands of situations.

4. How many was the right number for the Nazis to kill? I think we will have to go with Zhou Enlai here and say its too early to know.

Is there anything else I can help you with?

No,you have now admitted that the Holocaust happened.

 

[Nick Terry]

I just like to point that the UN declaration does not mention gas chambers.

could you guys for once in your freaking lives make an argument that does NOT rely on negative evidence, and is thus not logically fallacious?

 

[dafydd]

Yes.



The Catholics were not exterminated. No one claims they were exterminated or that the Nazis attempted to exterminate them. Also, if you want to understand anything, you should exhibit some curiosity. You express no surprise that the Nazis wrote death certificates for prisoners that died and kept summary Death Books, and that these are available. How can that be?





We know why the Nazis sent the Jews to the camps. You, and everyone else, is aware of the Nazi anti-Jew campaigns. Are you aware of the anti-Nazi campaigns of the Jews dating back to the mid thirties? For the headline see Hitler's Case Against the Jews here http://www.holohoax101.com/103/ I think most people would agree the Jews in the camps deserve reparations, on the order of those the US gave to the Japanese prisoners.



This is utter nonsense.

What utter bollocks. You are beyond redemption,on ignore you go. I have to shower every time I reply to you or the little grey rabbi. No Zyklon B though,my shower wasn't built by the Nazis.

 

[Nick Terry]

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Moderated content removed.

I know Auschwitz is a labor camp now, but what I meant was that I didn't know that before, growing up, when I was still essentially a de facto believer. Most people's knowledge consists of what they learn in high school. Most people don't go out of there way to read much of anything else besides what's assigned to them in school and that's most likely not original wartime reports or anything close to that. It's mostly just that history textbook and whatever your teacher decides to tell you. That back then I was not told that Auschwitz was a labor camp and pretty much anything else at all besides a vivid description of how Jews would all run up to the gas chamber door. Oh and that Nazis burned Jews alive. Well a teacher didn't tell me that. I don't know where I heard it. All I know is I heard it somewhere and grew up thinking about how Nazis were gruesomely burning Jews alive in ovens. You can only blame the public education system for my ignorance about the Holocaust then. I suppose all that matters is that I know that Jews were being gassed and burned alive in ovens.

This only makes things worse for you, I'm afraid. You wrote, very clearly, 'I did not know Auschwitz was a labor camp'. Full stop. Now you try and backpedal and say you didn't know this at high school? So freakin' what?

Either your ignorance persisted up until the time when TSR corrected you, or you were being dishonest in acting as if it was somehow unknown or not generally understood that Auschwitz was both a labour camp and a site of extermination.

Ignorance or dishonesty, take your pick. I'm not fussy.

 

[Thunder]

Yes. No Jews were killed for being Jewish.

ah, but they were killed for being Communists or some other threat to Dem Deutschen Volke?