Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[truethat]

Billions in reparations, two ongoing US wars right now with the distinct possibility of a 3rd. How's that for starters.

What two wars are going on because Jews were exterminated versus killed?

Also billions is a big number to throw around. But seriously it's not that big of a number considering that this happened over 50 years ago. You can certainly think billions is a huge number but it's a drop in the bucket.

Take a look at the Marshall Plan from the same era.

the Marshall Plan (officially the European Recovery Program, ERP) was the large-scale economic program, 1947–1951[1], of the United States for rebuilding and creating a stronger economic foundation for the countries of Europe. The initiative was named after Secretary of State George Marshall[2] and was largely the creation of State Department officials, especially William L. Clayton and George F. Kennan. Marshall spoke of urgent need to help the European recovery in his address at Harvard University in June 1947.[3]

The reconstruction plan, developed at a meeting of the participating European states, was established on June 5, 1947. It offered the same aid to the Soviet Union and its allies, but they did not accept it.[4][5] The plan was in operation for four years beginning in April 1948. During that period some US $13 billion in economic and technical assistance were given to help the recovery of the European countries that had joined in the Organization for European Economic Co-operation. This $13 billion was in the context of a U.S. GDP of $258 billion in 1948, and was on top of $12 billion in American aid to Europe between the end of the war and the start of the Plan that is counted separately from the Marshall Plan.[6]

MORE HERE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

 

[dafydd]

Billions in reparations, two ongoing US wars right now with the distinct possibility of a 3rd. How's that for starters.

How many Jews was the right number for the Nazis to kill? Your fellow denier said that the official figure was too high.

 

[Saggy]

What two wars are going on because Jews were exterminated versus killed?

They were not exterminated or killed. For crying out loud the Nazi records for the deaths at Auschwitz are available. More Roman Catholics died there than Jews.

The state of Israel owes its existence to the holohoax. The wars in Iraq ("The US invaded Iraq to secure Israel, and everyone knows it", senator Fritz Hollings) and Afghanistan (and Pakistan) are being fought because of Israel. Israel is now trying to provoke another war with Iran. How many more people in the middle east have to die to satisfy the Zionists.

 

[dafydd]

They were not exterminated or killed. For crying out loud the Nazi records for the deaths at Auschwitz are available. More Roman Catholics died there than Jews.

The state of Israel owes its existence to the holohoax. The wars in Iraq ("The US invaded Iraq to secure Israel, and everyone knows it", senator Fritz Hollings) and Afghanistan (and Pakistan) are being fought because of Israel. Israel is now trying to provoke another war with Iran. How many more people in the middle east have to die to satisfy the Zionists.

You appear to be a genius at missing the point. Why was Auschwitz there ,why were there deaths there and what gave the Nazis the right to interfere in other people's lives? How many Jews was the right number for the Nazis to kill? Try and find the guts to answer these questions.

 

[dafydd]

Kageki, I think you misunderstood Dr Terry's question. His question was what do you hope to achieve by posting in the Conspiracy Section of JREF. Obviously, no one is going to be convinced here, even if Primo Levi himself turned up and said it was all a big joke.

This just leaves education as the only goal. More on my very useful and informative bear metaphor.

Your definitions of useful and informative are very different to the ones found in a dictionary. Keep on being amusing.

 

[Saggy]

Obviously, no one is going to be convinced here, even if Primo Levi himself turned up and said it was all a big joke.

You're right, you can't convince anyone. But, you might get someone to start thinking. Just the fact that apparently intelligent people are challenging the hoax is a start. And if you can make someone aware of just one of the absurdities of the hoax, or just something they didn't know, e.g., that there were rooms in the camps where the Nazis gasses clothes to kill lice, then they might start investigating on their own. That's what happened to me.

Also, the tactics the Zionists use, of endless insult and idiocy, might be a double edged sword, and that too might start someone to thinking.

In short, if you can spur an active interest, it's enough. No one can be convinced by any argument, the effect of the endless brainwashing cannot be so easily overcome. However, if someone takes an active interest, they will sooner or later discover the thing is a preposterous hoax.

 

[TSR]

They were not exterminated or killed. For crying out loud the Nazi records for the deaths at Auschwitz are available.

.
... and are incomplete, and only record the deaths of *registered* inmates.

Got any of that pesky, you know, evidence what happened to all of those Hungarian Jews that are documented as having been shipped there, were never registered, nor were heard from again?
.

The state of Israel owes its existence to the holohoax. The wars in Iraq ("The US invaded Iraq to secure Israel, and everyone knows it", senator Fritz Hollings)

.
Got a *reliable* source for this quote?
.

and Afghanistan (and Pakistan) are being fought because of Israel.

.
Perhaps you could share a non-delusional rationale how these wars benefit Israel?
.

Israel is now trying to provoke another war with Iran. How many more people in the middle east have to die to satisfy the Zionists.

.
Ummmm. You keep using that term, but it doesn't mean what you viscerally need it to mean...
.

 

[dafydd]

You're right, you can't convince anyone. But, you might get someone to start thinking. Just the fact that apparently intelligent people are challenging the hoax is a start. And if you can make someone aware of just one of the absurdities of the hoax, or just something they didn't know, e.g., that there were rooms in the camps where the Nazis gasses clothes to kill lice, then they might start investigating on their own. That's what happened to me.

Also, the tactics the Zionists use, of endless insult and idiocy, might be a double edged sword, and that too might start someone to thinking.

In short, if you can spur an active interest, it's enough. No one can be convinced by any argument, the effect of the endless brainwashing cannot be so easily overcome. However, if someone takes an active interest, they will sooner or later discover the thing is a preposterous hoax.

So you won't answer my questions. A coward,just like your hero Adolf.

 

[TSR]

And if you can make someone aware of just one of the absurdities of the hoax, or just something they didn't know, e.g., that there were rooms in the camps where the Nazis gasses clothes to kill lice, then they might start investigating on their own.

.
Of course, those *actually* interested in rational investigation will do more than read denier sites and then mindlessly parrot the lies they find there -- but then those kind of people would realize that no one *credible* has ever stated that the fumigation of clothes and such did not *also* occur.

Can you cite a single 'hoaxer' or 'Zionist' or actual hisstorian that has even given the the hint of a suggestion of an implication that fumigation didn't happen?
.

 

[kageki]

What two wars are going on because Jews were exterminated versus killed?

Also billions is a big number to throw around. But seriously it's not that big of a number considering that this happened over 50 years ago. You can certainly think billions is a huge number but it's a drop in the bucket.

Take a look at the Marshall Plan from the same era.



MORE HERE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

But it is billions. Isn't it something like 100 billion or so that Germany has paid to Israel now? That's separate from the reparations to the survivors. The point is that the figure does matter directly to the amount of reparations. In general it matters just to even determine if reparations are necessary. Germany had originally declined reparations to Gypsies because they didn't believe it was justified.

It's also obviously a big difference if they had performed mass exterminations with gas chambers or not. It's not necessarily a judgment call, but just determining the facts.

 

[truethat]

They were not exterminated or killed. For crying out loud the Nazi records for the deaths at Auschwitz are available. More Roman Catholics died there than Jews.

The state of Israel owes its existence to the holohoax. The wars in Iraq ("The US invaded Iraq to secure Israel, and everyone knows it", senator Fritz Hollings) and Afghanistan (and Pakistan) are being fought because of Israel. Israel is now trying to provoke another war with Iran. How many more people in the middle east have to die to satisfy the Zionists.

So it is your argument that NO Jews were killed or exterminated during WW2? Do I understand you correctly?

Because if you are saying that "more Catholics" died, what difference does it make?

Additionally if we forgo the entire "guilt" of the actual concentration camps and suggest that it was all just death from starvation, disease etc. Then we have to ask ourselves how the Jews wound up there in the first place.

The anti Jew campaigns in Nazi Germany are documented and well known. You can not deny these I hope? Therefor like the US internment of Japanese Americans during WW2, this was wrong and a violation of their rights. If the subsequent result of these issues led to death, then the Jews certainly have a right to receive reparations.

The issues in Israel have to do with it being considered an 'imago mundi' and holy land more so than anything to do with WW2. Any simple historical scholar knows that.

 

[dafydd]

So it is your argument that NO Jews were killed or exterminated during WW2? Do I understand you correctly?

Because if you are saying that "more Catholics" died, what difference does it make?

Additionally if we forgo the entire "guilt" of the actual concentration camps and suggest that it was all just death from starvation, disease etc. Then we have to ask ourselves how the Jews wound up there in the first place.

The anti Jew campaigns in Nazi Germany are documented and well known. You can not deny these I hope? Therefor like the US internment of Japanese Americans during WW2, this was wrong and a violation of their rights. If the subsequent result of these issues led to death, then the Jews certainly have a right to receive reparations.

The issues in Israel have to do with it being considered an 'imago mundi' and holy land more so than anything to do with WW2. Any simple historical scholar knows that.

Saggy is not an historical scholar,as should be obvious by now.

 

[little grey rabbit]

The anti Jew campaigns in Nazi Germany are documented and well known. You can not deny these I hope? Therefor like the US internment of Japanese Americans during WW2, this was wrong and a violation of their rights. If the subsequent result of these issues led to death, then the Jews certainly have a right to receive reparations.
.

The right to reparations is not a universal right as you appear to think but rather dependent on there being a powerful "victim" and a wealthy "perpetrator"

So an Arab who lost his house in Jaffa will never receive reparations ("perpetrator" is wealthy, "victim' is powerless)

A Finn who lost his home in the Soviet Union will not receive reparations ("victim" is not powerful enough, "perpetrator" not wealthy enough)

A Jewish person will not receive reparations for lost property in Eastern Europe ("victim" is powerful, but "benefactor" or "perpetrator" is not wealthy enough)

A German person will not receive reparations for lost property or internment in the Eastern Europe or USSR ("victim" is weak, "perpetrator" is not wealthy enough)

A Jewish person will however receive reparations from German companies - despite the fact that modern companies drew no financial gain from that labor - how does IG Farben have any benefit from construction in Oswiecim? Since most of Germany was sent back to year zero in 1945, the economic miracle is in large part created since then Here the amount of compensation will depend on the power of the "victim". So a Jewish person will get greater compensation than a non-Jewish person working in the same camp, because they wield greater power.

A Jewish person will also receive reparations from Swiss banks, for the simple reason the "victim" is powerful, and the "perpetrator" is wealthy.

Personally I have nothing against Jews seeking reparations, and obviously confiscated property should be restored, but it should be recognised it will be when hell freezes over before they pay any to those whose property that took in Palestine.

 

[dafydd]

The right to reparations is not a univerisal right as you appear to think but rather dependent on their being a powerful "victim" and a wealthy "perpetrator"

So an Arab who lost his house in Jaffa will never receive reparations ("perpetrator" is wealthy, "victim' is powerless)

A Finn who lost his home in the Soviet Union will not receive reparations ("victim" is not powerful enough, "perpetrator" not wealthy enough)

A Jewish person will not receive reparations for lost property in Eastern Europe ("victim" is powerful, but "benefactor" or "perpetrator" is not wealthy enough)

A German person will not receive reparations for lost property or internment in the Eastern Europe or USSR ("victim" is weak, "perpetrator" is not wealthy enough)

A Jewish person will however receive reparations from German companies - despite the fact that modern companies drew no financial gain from that labor - how does IG Farben have any benefit from construction in Oswiecim? Here the amount of compensation will depend on the power of the "victim". So a Jewish person will get greater compensation than a non-Jewish person working in the same camp, because they wield greater power.

A Jewish person will also receive reparations from Swiss banks, for the simple reason the "victim" is powerful, and the "perpetrator" is wealthy.

Personally I have nothing against Jews seeking reparations but it should be recognised it will be when hell freezes over before they pay any to those whose property that took in Palestine.

Avoiding the awkward questions yet again.

 

[little grey rabbit]

I am sorry, which one is that exactly?

 

[kageki]

So it is your argument that NO Jews were killed or exterminated during WW2? Do I understand you correctly?

Because if you are saying that "more Catholics" died, what difference does it make?

Additionally if we forgo the entire "guilt" of the actual concentration camps and suggest that it was all just death from starvation, disease etc. Then we have to ask ourselves how the Jews wound up there in the first place.

The anti Jew campaigns in Nazi Germany are documented and well known. You can not deny these I hope? Therefor like the US internment of Japanese Americans during WW2, this was wrong and a violation of their rights. If the subsequent result of these issues led to death, then the Jews certainly have a right to receive reparations.

The issues in Israel have to do with it being considered an 'imago mundi' and holy land more so than anything to do with WW2. Any simple historical scholar knows that.

Then how did the Japanese end up in the US concentration camps? There was a reason for confiscating their property and sticking them in the middle of a desert right?

Sure I agree those Jews still deserve reparations, but for what reason are you suggesting?

 

[dafydd]

I am sorry, which one is that exactly?

Why was Auschwitz there ,why were there deaths there and what gave the Nazis the right to interfere in other people's lives? How many Jews was the right number for the Nazis to kill?

 

[Thunder]

They were not exterminated or killed. For crying out loud the Nazi records for the deaths at Auschwitz are available. More Roman Catholics died there than Jews.

these are simply lies folks. the great majority of the million or so deaths at Auschwitz were Jews.

millions of Jews sent to the death camps in Poland, never to be seen again. these are the facts.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Why was Auschwitz there ,why were there deaths there and what gave the Nazis the right to interfere in other people's lives? How many Jews was the right number for the Nazis to kill?

1. Auschwitz was a sort of gulag type system primarily to help develop industry in the newly acquired additions to the Reich. Also to act as a transit point in the deportation of Jews and as a holding place for criminals, polish resistance and elements seen as hostile to the regime during wartime with the added benefits obtained from their labor.

2. Why were there deaths there? That exact extent of deaths is to me unclear. Some people were definitely executed for resistance activities and I have seen some documentation regarding some levels of typhus deaths. Presumably others died from other causes as well. The evidence I have seen does not support the level of deaths of the Death Books rediscovered in the 1990s. I believe Hans Aumeier in his first interrogation said the number of deaths during his time was around 3000. Later his memory was refreshed and he recalled homicidal gas chambers.

3. What gave the Nazis the right to interfere in other people's lives? What gives people the right to interfere in my life, your life or anybody's life? Because they had the power and could. This could be asked about thousands of situations.

4. How many was the right number for the Nazis to kill? I think we will have to go with Zhou Enlai here and say its too early to know.

Is there anything else I can help you with?

 

[Thunder]

1. Auschwitz was a sort of gulag type system primarily to help develop industry in the newly acquired additions to the Reich. Also to act as a transit point in the deportation of Jews and as a holding place for criminals, polish resistance and elements seen as hostile to the regime during wartime with the added benefits obtained from their labor.

no, Auschwitz was a death camp built to kill millions of Jews, gays, Gypsies, and other "untermenschen".