General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[bikerdruid]

Your argument is just too stupid to respond to. I can feel brain cell committing suicide just by thinking of plumbing the depths of stupidity I'd need to respond to it. So I will spare them by placing you on ignore for a while.

translation:
"..damn i hate it when i am proven wrong. how dare you question anything to do with israel. those poor people can do anything they want to the muslimn animals, because ......well, because they are israel and they can do no wrong.
i'm putting you on ignore out of embarrassment. i hope you feel severely chastized."

 

[Thunder]

funny how Mycroft has put me on ignore, not due to MY argument but due to reports in Ha'aretz.

I guess some facts just really burn some folks to the bone huh?

 

[Toontown]

Who's to say there is a solution? Palestine won some autonomy and has been run by racketeers and crooks ever since. Those crooks are doing well. All they have to do is provide a little ideological cover for their racketeering and keep the pot boiling over just enough to keep the foreign aid bonanza coming in. The only thing they need worry about is boiling things over too much and provoking an Israeli smackdown. Hamas made that mistake in 2006.

So what's the solution to that? There isn't one.

A smarter monkeyworld?

Hey, it could happen. According to the "many worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics, everything that has a non-zero probability exists in some universe.

But almost certainly not in this one, unfortunately.

Hmm. We could make it a quantum decision. Either the monkeyworld wises up, or it faces nuclear anihilation. The monkeyworld will almost certainly NOT wise up, but in a tiny meaure of Everett-worlds, the monkeyworld WILL wise up. According to quantum suicide theory, our conscious selves will find ourselves in one of the tiny minority of wised-up monkeyworlds, precisely because all our counterparts in all other monkeyworlds will have been anihilated.

I'm afraid that may be monkeyworld's only remaining hope, forlorn though it may be.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...-cohanim-eucalyptus-trees-have-to-go-1.343448

Thanks God I live in a country that respects common-sense seperation between Church & State.

The people who live in this community are Israeli taxpayers. It has been deemed that in their community, there is enough change in the traffic patterns on the jewish sabbath to warrant the construction of a new road.

There is no church/state hanky-panky here. Just a government doing what it's supposed to do for the people its supposed to be serving.

And oh yeah, some trees got killed... whoop-de-frakkin-doo.

EDIT: FULL DISCLOSURE: I will be driving to church this Sunday on a road paved by taxpayer dollars.

 

[Thunder]

The people who live in this community are Israeli taxpayers. It has been deemed that in their community, there is enough change in the traffic patterns on the jewish sabbath to warrant the construction of a new road.

But according to a document by Israel Antabi, the municipality's deputy director general and head of engineering and projects, the trees were removed not because of plans to create a four-lane road. The plan is to pave a street for Cohanim - Jews who, according to custom, face certain restrictions such as avoiding graveyards.

According to the document, "Tiberias is an ancient city more than 2,000 years old .... In Tiberias there are cemeteries that cover most of the area around the old city. So Cohanim do not use the roads in the center of Tiberias. The Israeli government decided to fund a project for making halakhic roads that would enable the passage of Cohanim."

"halakic roads" & "pave a street for Cohanim"

sounds like a major violation of the seperation of Church & State.

FAIL

 

[Thunder]

Palestinians plan "Day of Rage" to protest America's UN veto

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...u-s-veto-on-un-settlement-resolution-1.344425

Palestinians are planning their own "Day of Rage" to protest the American veto on a United Nations resolution condemning Israeli settlements, Ma'an News Agency reported a top Fatah official as saying on Saturday.

"They are liars who pretend to support democracy and peace. Far from it," Fatah official and former Palestinian intelligence chief Tawfik Tirawi, referring to the U.S., told the news agency.


..I support such protests as long as they stay peaceful.

 

[Mycroft]

mycroft...thunder is a jew.

If true, irrelevant.

On the internet anyone can claim to be whatever they want and more than one person has thought of claiming to be something they're not in order to lend extra credibility to what they say. But, for the sake of argument, if we assume Parky is as Jewish as he claims, that doesn't make him any more knowledgeable about Israel.

But the fact is that he derides Jewish customs and practices. That he claims to be Jewish doesn't make that any less inappropriate or noteworthy.

he is a jew who opposes israel's abominable domestic and foreign policies.

I disagree that losing a few trees to build a road is an abominable policy. I think it's a very good policy that is just like the road-building policies of any other nation on Earth.

I also disagree that it's bad policy to make the road conform to the religious sensitivities of the people who will use it. If there were evidence Israel would not show the same consideration to the sensitivities of people from different religions, then there might be something to discuss, but no evidence has been offered.

 

[Thunder]

But the fact is that he derides Jewish customs and practices.

I know of no Cohain Jews who follow the silly practise of not going to cemetaries.

And as a Jew, I have every right to deride those customs of Judaism that I find silly & stupid.

Just as I gave the right to compliment customs, such as the ritual hand-washing before eating, as very common sense and probably highly advantageous during times of disease.

 

[Mycroft]

translation:
"..damn i hate it when i am proven wrong. how dare you question anything to do with israel. those poor people can do anything they want to the muslimn animals, because ......well, because they are israel and they can do no wrong.
i'm putting you on ignore out of embarrassment. i hope you feel severely chastized."

Do you think those links prove an Israeli conspiracy to turn Mosques into warehouses?

I don't.

The very first article makes a comparison with Synagogues from Gush Katif that were destroyed by Palestinians after the Jewish residents abandoned them. Is that evidence of a Palestinian conspiracy to destroy Synagogues? Of course not, that would be stupid. But the exact same logic is presented to manufacture a grievance against Israel.

 

[Thunder]

Do you think those links prove an Israeli conspiracy to turn Mosques into warehouses?

conspiracy? what conspiracy?

the two Haaretz articles show such things did indeed happen. its no longer a CT if it turns out to be true.

Israel did indeed destroy many Mosques after 1948 and abused/misused many more.

the deniers can deny all they like.




http://www.haaretz.com/news/a-mosque...-here-1.169947

The club was closed in the mid-1980s. For a few years, the former mosque became a stable. The steel doors at the entrance to the prayer hall and the dry horse droppings on the floor testify to this not-so-distant past. Today the building is deserted.

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magaz...rased-1.224899

This was not the only Muslim holy place destroyed after Israel's War of Independence. According to a book by Dr. Meron Benvenisti, of the 160 mosques in the Palestinian villages incorporated into Israel under the armistice agreements, fewer than 40 are still standing.

 

[bikerdruid]

I disagree that losing a few trees to build a road is an abominable policy.

even if those trees are some of the oldest olive trees in the world?

 

[WildCat]

even if those trees are some of the oldest olive trees in the world?

At 70 years? Can't possibly be true.

 

[Mycroft]

even if those trees are some of the oldest olive trees in the world?

How far do you want to move those goalposts? The trees under discussion are eucalyptus trees and were stated to be about 70 years old. Which is pretty young for trees.

 

[Mycroft]

But for the sake of argument, let's say they were centuries old olive trees.

Olive trees normally have an expected life span of 500 years, but they can live to be thousands of years old. It's expected that in a region that has produced olives for thousands of years that there would be a lot of ancient olive trees. .

Certainly there is value to preserving ancient trees, but how much value? That would depend on how many of these ancient trees there were, what was accomplished by the projects that removed them, and the needs of the community. These are competing needs that need to be balanced against each other. Such balancing can only be accomplished at a local level, by local government. It's just not an issue for international debate.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

"halakic roads" & "pave a street for Cohanim"

sounds like a major violation of the seperation of Church & State.

Not even remotely close. Paving a road is paving a road. They aren't building a church or formally pledging the states support to that church.

Taxpayers pay taxes, the state builds roads. The Cohanim aren't doing anything wrong by asking that the state do it's job and build roads where traffic is expected to go. That a significant percentage of the population will use that road to go to church is none of the states business... or yours.

 

[Thunder]

The plan is to pave a street for Cohanim - Jews who, according to custom, face certain restrictions such as avoiding graveyards.

The Israeli government decided to fund a project for making halakhic roads that would enable the passage of Cohanim.


for the reading impaired.

Israel is spending tax-payer funds to please the religious needs of very religious Jews. This road expansion and new sidewalk has NO secular basis whatsoever.

But just like Iran and Afghanistan are Islamic states, Israel is a Jewish state...which makes this all kosher, I guess.

 

[Thunder]

That a significant percentage of the population will use that road to go to church is none of the states business... or yours.

if its none of the state's business, then WHY are they building it?

if the new sidewalk is none of the state's business, then WHY are they building it?

keep digging, SOT.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

if its none of the state's business, then WHY are they building it?

Because taxpaying citizens want it.

if the new sidewalk is none of the state's business, then WHY are they building it?

Because taxpaying citizens want it.

You're pissed because the taxpaying citizens in this case are using it to go to church. You're proving nothing but your own religious bigotry.

 

[Thunder]

Because taxpaying citizens want it.

Because taxpaying citizens want it.

municipalities don't just build new roads and sidewalks because people want it. they build them if they are neccessary. capital funds don't grow on trees, you know...and they don't get used simply because of a public desire.

You're pissed because the taxpaying citizens in this case are using it to go to church. You're proving nothing but your own religious bigotry.

why can't the tax-payers use the existing sidewalk to go to Church? its not good enough for them?

oh, right, its near a cemetary. sucks to be you. why should Muslim, Christian, Ba'Hai, and secular Jewish taxpayer funds be used to build a road SIMPLY for the purpose of satisfying the cockamayme needs of ultra-Orthodox Jews?

will the state go the same lengths to please the religious needs of very religious Muslims? no, cause Israel is a Jewish state....NOT a Muslim state.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Israel is spending tax-payer funds to please the religious transportation needs of very religious tax paying citizens Jews.

Corrected free of charge.

This road expansion and new sidewalk has NO secular basis whatsoever.

Lies.

The pourpose of the road is to get taxpayers and their families from point A to point B. You hate it because point B happens to be a church. That's just plain old bigotry.

Congratulations, you've become what you've beheld.