To enlighten you on what was actually brought out at the Moussaoui trial, information that very few Americans are even aware of today, the documents presented at the Moussaoui trial prove that the CIA knew, when Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi were found inside of the US, that they were here to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that would kill thousands of Americans. Not only did they not alert FBI agents that could have stopped Mihdhar and Hazmi, but they conspired with FBI HQ agents to shut down the one criminal FBI investigation that could have prevented the attacks on 9/11, the investigation by the FBI Cole bombing investigators in the New York FBI filed office, that wanted to search and find these terrorists before they carried out the attacks on 9/11. The documents at the Moussaoui trial also show that the FBI HQ agents who shut down this FBI criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi knew full well that they were acting illegally to criminally obstruct this investigation, and knew that their criminal actions would allow the al Qaeda terrorists to murder thousands of Americans.
Merged deliberate obstruction by the CIA of pre-9/11 investigations?
- Thread starter paloalto
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The Big Dog
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You know what is really awesome about the Moussaoui trial? All of the exhibits are ON LINE!!
YES.
Now you can link to your evidence!
Oystein
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Have you opened your own thread to discuss this topic yet?
If not, when do you plan to open your own thread to discuss this topic?
Why do you hide your information in threads with very different topics, if you think it is important?
Go to the Moussaoui trial web site, http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/, see Defense Exhibits and look at the following documents:
DE # 939, in this documents Tom Wilshire, aka John, says in email back to his CIA CTC managers, Richard Blee, Cofer Back, and George Tenet, that when the next big al Qaeda terrorist attack is carried out [the CIA] must consider that Mihdhar, "should be of high interest". Right after that statement in DE #939, less than one month later the CIA and FBI HQ, Deputy Chief of the ITOS unit at the FBI, Tom Wilshire, and FBI HQ Agent Dina Corsi, are told by Mary (aka Margret Gillespie, a FBI agent at the CIA Bin Laden unit) that Mihdhar and Hazmi are inside of the US.
DE #448, this is the actual release from the NSA approved on August 27, 2001, that allows FBI Agent Dina Corsi to give the NSA Kuala Lumpur information to the FBI criminal investigators on the Cole bombing. But on August 28, 2001, she tells FBI Agent Steve Bongardt, when he accidentally gets Corsi’s EC from John Liguori, that he and his team are forbidden to have the NSA material in her EC, and therefor they must destroy her EC with this information and are forbidden (because they cannot have any contact with this NSA material) to take part in any investigation of these al Qaeda terrorists. Bongardt also knows that these terrorists are inside of the US in order to take part in a horrific al Qaeda attack when he tells Corsi”
“Why do you think they are here. Do you think they are going to ******* Disneyland”
Please let the autocensor do its job. If you do, then you won't have a big box inserted in your post reminding you do do so.
Posted By: kmortis
DE #469, FBI HQ Agent Dina Corsi’s EC to start an intelligence investigation for Mihdhar and Hazmi, in order to keep this investigation away from FBI criminal investigators, a team of experienced investigators that desperate wanted to find Mihdhar and Hazmi before they had time to carry out another al Qaeda attack. This EC also connects Mihdhar and Hazmi to information on the Cole bombing.
DE #681 Email from Dina Corsi to John Liguori, stating that her EC could not be passed to the FBI criminal investigators, when the NSA release to do this had already been approved 2 days earlier
DE #682, Email from FBI Agent Dina Corsi to FBI Agent Steve Bongardt (lead FBI agent in the New York FBI field office on the FBI USS Cole investigation) stating that at such time as information is developed that indicates the “existence of a substantial Federal crime the information, [on Mihdhar and Hazmi] will be passed over "the wall"”.
But Corsi knew as she admitted to the DOJ IG investigators that she had read the NSA cable before the June 11, 2001 meeting between the FBI Cole bombing investigators, the CIA and herself that stated that Mihdhar and Hazmi were al Qaeda terrorists connected to other al Qaeda terrorists that had taken part in the east Africa bombings, a crime, and were traveling to an important al Qaeda planning g meeting in Kuala Lumpur. Almost beyond belief this NSA information had been given to FBI Director Louis Freeh by the CIA in December 2000. But Freeh told FBI Agent Ali Soufan in November 2000, when asked by Soufan to make an official request to the CIA from any information the CIA had on any al Qaeda planning meeting in Kuala Lumpur and on Walid Bin Attash that the CIA had none of this information. Freeh had not only been given this information, but it ended up in his January 4, 2000 briefing papers, including later the full name Khalid al-Mihdhar. (see p 181 9/11 Commission report, p 238-239 DOJ IG report).
On August 22, 2001, Corsi admits to the DOJ IG investigators, see p 302 of the DIOJ IG report, that she knows the CIA, and even FBI HQ had the photo of Khallad (Walid Bin Attash ) taken at Kuala Lumpur al Qaeda planning meeting, knows that both the CIA and FBI HQ had been keeping this photo secret from the FBI Cole bombing investigators in spite of the fact that she knows this directly connects both Mihdhar and Hazmi to the planning of the Cole bombing at this meeting, yet another crime. It is clear that even though the existence of this photo was known by many people( 50-60 people) at the CIA including almost all of their highest level managers and by several managers at the FBI, that they all had been keeping this secret so Bongardt and his team would never have the information he and his team had been looking for to start an investigation and search for Mihdhar and Hazmi.
In this email, Corsi also admits that she and her boss Rod Middleton had just talked to a NSLU attorney, on August 28, 2001, to satisfy Bongardt’s request to get a legal opinion to see if he could search for Mihdhar and Hazmi, since he felt that the NSA information had nothing to do with any FISA warrant. Unfortunately while Corsi told Bongardt on August 29, 2001 the NSLU attorney had ruled that he could not take part in any investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, page 538, footnote 81 in the 9/11 Commission report says that Sherry Sabol, the attorney Corsi contacted, tells DOJ IG investigators on November 7, 2002 that she had told Corsi that Bongardt could take part in any investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi since the NSA information had no connection to any FISA warrant, and if Corsi was still confused she could request a release a from the NSA herself, unaware she had already been approved for this very release 2 days earlier.
Unfortunately almost 3000 people paid with their lives for this criminal deception carried out by the CIA and FBI HQ.
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dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
Don't hold your breath, because I am betting the actual documents don't support paloalto's LIHOP thesis.
Justin39640
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Don't you understand? You are actually quoting evidence of all the red tape that was in place for DECADES that prevented the right info getting to the right people.
Oystein
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Dude!
Wrong thread!
You are off-topic!
When will you open your own thread to get the attention that your information deserves?
I have been telling you for months now to NOT spam that stuff in threads for different topics!!
aggle-rithm
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Make me.
TruthersLie
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Have you bothered to read Looming Tower and Spying Blind? (the Spy Factory is also very good).
They agree with the sources you have (mis)cited. These sources show the bureacratic infighting that was going on and how there was plenty of information that showed a major attack was coming but there was no one to coordinate that information.
Not LIHOP, just simple infighting and government incompetence.
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Maybe you could explain where these documents have been miss-cited. Since they are all listed this should be very easy to do. Do not say "just simple infighting and government incompetence" but exactly where you think the facts I have sited which are very specific, are incorrect.
Thanks,
Thanks,
TruthersLie
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Sure thing.
You are citing sources to back up the claim of a "deliberate obstruction by the CIA of pre 9/11 investigations." The sources show that there was political infighting between the CIA and the FBI and the NSA.
That is what I mean by your misciting the sources. You are making claims that are pure conjecture. What they show is political "turf" fighting. They also demonstrate the institutional arrogance of the CIA and FBI.
What you have "found" and are trying to spin into a LIHOP scenario is just political and bureaucratic infighting.
It is a typical government reaction. There is nothing there which shows intentional obstruction by DESIGN or by orders from above. What you have shows that there was arrogance (we will never be attacked) and turf battles.
Looming Tower, spying blind and the Shadow factory all document how the CIA, FBI and NSA had enough information (if they were working together and paid attention) to KNOW something big was going to happen. That is governmental incompetence and the way bureaucracies work. There is NO evidence for LIHOP... plenty for SNAFU and FUBAR
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newton3376
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Exactly...
Sadly the infighting between those 3 agencies (and several others) continues till this day...although things have improved....
TruthersLie
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Looming tower, spying blind and the Shadow Factory outline what was known and how these agencies screwed up.
it is amazing that people want to have it be LIHOP when it was just infighting and institutional arrogance.... (ya know no rag heads in cave will ever be able to domore than maybe blow up a bomb... maybe hurt a couple of dozen people nothing big. We will get them)
Now I think many of us will agree that some people should have been fired after 9/11 for this infighting and the inability to coordinate the agencies... but that is monday morning qbing at the worst.
TexasJack
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I found it particularity amazing after reading these books that the head of the FBI (I can't recall his name atm) didn't even use a computer. In fact, he discouraged its use. You were pretty much considered a sissy in the organization if you did use one. I think it was Zegart who described the agents using shoe boxes for their case files instead of computers.
Another aspect I would add is that the FBI was great at crime solving, but very poor at crime prevention. That is, once a crime was committed, they had an excellent track record of catching the perps, but spoiling a crime was not their forte. Also, I think in addition to the competition and arrogance between these agencies, there was also a major difference in philosophies. The FBI was a strict law and order organization that did things by the book. They didn't want a perp to get off on a technicality. The CIA had a free wheeling shoot from the hip and ask questions later type of attitude. So there was a major mistrust between the two; they each thought the other would bungle the case if they shared info. Hence the reluctance to share info. So organizational philosophy also played a big part in the screw-ups.
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Thanks for your reply, but again you need to look at the very documents I have cited and explain what facts you think are wrong. Do not use the
"The sources show that there was political infighting between the CIA and the FBI and the NSA. That is what I mean by your misciting the sources. You are making claims that are pure conjecture. What they show is political "turf" fighting. They also demonstrate the institutional arrogance of the CIA and FBI." arguments to defend this position when the documents in the Moussaoui trial say something entirely different."
Cite the exact Moussaoui trial document, and exactly what you think it said that is different from what I had quoted, you do not have to go to these books, the source documents are right here and right on the Moussaoui web site.
By the way I have read Looming Tower and have been in email contact with Lawrence Wright to make sure I had the exact understanding of what he said in his book. He clearly says, as he also indicated in email to me, that the CIA had [criminally] obstructed the FBI criminal investigation of FBI Agent Ali Soufan and FBI Agent Steve Bongardt, into the USS Cole bombing. Lawrence Wright agrees with my analysis of the facts. But what is a mystery, is he says that FBI Agent Ali Soufan had asked FBI Director Louis Freeh in November 2000, to make an official FBI request to the CIA and Director George Tenet for any information that the CIA had on any al Qaeda meeting in Kuala Lumpur held in January 2000, and any information the CIA had on Walid Bin Attash aka Khallad, thought to be the mastermind of the Cole bombing. He was told in response to his official request that the CIA had no information on Bin Attash or on any al Qaeda meeting. But he left out the information found in now publically available government documents that show Freeh had the very infromation requested by Soufan.
According to 9/11 Commission report page 181, and the DOJ IG report pages 238-239, Freeh had already gotten this very information from the NSA in December 1999 and the CIA in January 2000, and this information ended up right in Freeh's daily briefing papers for January 4, 2000. When FBI Director Louis Freeh told FBI Agent Ali Soufan that there was none of this information at the CIA he was not only lying, but criminally obstructing his own investigation into the murder of 17 US sailors, an obstruction that ultimately allowed the al Qaeda terrorists to carry out the attacks on 9/11.
Maybe you can explain that?
The book Looming Tower is the only source for the fact that FBI Agent Ali Soufan had requested this information from FBI Director Louis Freeh.
Maybe you can explain why Lawrence Wright left out the horrific fact that Freeh already been given this very information by the NSA and the CIA, when he clearly was one of the few people who had known about Soufan’s request.
This leads to even a bigger question. Maybe you can explain why Soufan’s request to FBI Director Louis Freeh was not in the 9/11 Commission report or in the DOJ Inspector General’s report. Surly the DOJ Inspector General knew who the lead FBI investigator was on the Cole bombing investigation, you would think, since the FBI is under the DOJ.
This is not a small detail, but a horrific fact.
This was the very information being requested by the very FBI criminal investigating team that could have used it to prevent the attacks on 9/11, and saved the lives of almost 3000 people killed on 9/11.
Thanks for your reply.
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DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
I find it a bit hard to believe that Lawrence Wright would say this. Before 9/11 it was not allowed (by legislation) for these agencies to exchange information in this way. It was thought (I suppose wrongfully) at the time that exchanges like these could compromise the security/Constitutionality of each others investigation. To this day I don't really understand the logic but, apparently in the mid 90's it made sense.
TexasJack
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It turned out that it wasn't illegal, but the impression the agencies had at the time is that it was. It was called "The Wall", and inconvenience that palo alto continues to omit. I doubt seriously that Wright used the word criminally. Palo alto has a way of twisting facts to fit his unfounded claims. He has demonstrated a lack of understanding of the content of the books fore-mentioned.
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DGM
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Thanks for the clarification. I remember reading about "the wall" years ago and having lots of trouble trying to understand the logic. This is of course not the first time government bureaucracy has escaped me.
BCR
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Actually, Bamford in The Shadow Factory seems to imply that it is not just a case of
But then again I guess people bring their own preconceptions to the table when they interpret what happened.
TruthersLie
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Having read Shadow factory, it is rather clear that there was a lack of communication between the CIA, NSA and the FBI.
That is factual.
It was also the way that government organizations work. One hand often doesn't know what the other is doing, and may in fact be doing exactly the opposite thing.
My read on it was that the NSA had most of the information, but the FBI didn't take the idea of domestic terrorism on the scale of 911 seriously. They figured it would be those rag heads from caves who could blow up themselves, but not much more.