Protests in Wisconsin - Scott Walker

[WildCat]

Here is a very interesting analysis of the bill by Mother jones

http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/02/defunding-democratic-party

Apparently the bill does NOT impact public safety workers like cops and firemen? Why is that is it because teachers typically vote democtratic while cops don't?

Generally, cops and firefighters are already prohibited from going on strike. This is a big part of the reason they don't have the bloated wages and bennies other public sector employees enjoy.

 

[TraneWreck]

You're asking taxpayers, many of whom have lost their jobs entirely or took a pay/benefit cut, to pay for automatic pay raises for goverment workers already making more money than they are?

Goverment workers have no idea what the rest of the country is going through right now. The arrogance and sense of entitlement is astounding. You may as well be so many Marie Antoinetes.

There are certainly pension problems in some states, Wisconsin is not, however, one of them.

To begin, as others have explained, there was no budget shortfall until this Bagger Governor standing selling out to special interests, and second, observe this little hidden gem in the state pension program:

You know, the pensions they want to go after, they’re not very big in Wisconsin. I just calculated the numbers. The average Wisconsin state employee gets $24,500 a year. That’s not a very big pension. The state pension plan, 15% of the money going into it each year is being paid out to Wall Street to manage the money. That’s a really huge high percentage to pay out to Wall Street to manage the money. And what I think is going on here is this is the state as we began where public employee unions were first by law allowed, and if this governor can break these unions then you’re going to see this happen all across the country and further drive down wages. And if you can drive down wages in the public sector, it means private employers can drive down wages in the private sector.

http://www.dylanratigan.com/2011/02/17/david-cay-johnston-on-radio-free-dylan-2/

There are plenty of very compitent money managers that would manage the funds for much less than 15%. You want to save some money, cut out Wall Street, don't effectively give teachers a 7% pay cut.

Add onto that the fact that Walker turned down federal funds for new high speed rail, losing a great many jobs in the process, and he's basically trying to destroy collective bargaining and cut teacher's pay to cover his own mismanagement.

 

[WildCat]

There are certainly pension problems in some states, Wisconsin is not, however, one of them.

To begin, as others have explained, there was no budget shortfall, and second, observe this little hidden gem in the state pension program:

What does the average full-time state employee make? What is the median?

It's easy to massage statistics to make them in your favor. Hey look, the state bought garbage bags for Boy Scout Troop 123 to clean litter along the highway, let's include them for calculating the average state worker salary!

http://www.dylanratigan.com/2011/02/17/david-cay-johnston-on-radio-free-dylan-2/

There are plenty of very compitent money managers that would manage the funds for much less than 15%. You want to save some money, cut out Wall Street, don't effectively give teachers a 7% pay cut.

I'm sure many would do it for less. Look closely at who these pension managers are, I bet they're made up heavily of ex-government employees, including ex-legislators. At least that's how it works here. Yeah, that crap needs to end also.

 

[Alt+F4]

You're asking taxpayers, many of whom have lost their jobs entirely or took a pay/benefit cut, to pay for automatic pay raises for goverment workers already making more money than they are?

No, I'm asking government to honor the labor contracts they entered into.

Goverment workers have no idea what the rest of the country is going through right now. The arrogance and sense of entitlement is astounding. You may as well be so many Marie Antoinettes.

I choose a mostly recession-proof profession, so could anyone else. And you're right, I think I'm entitled to every dime I make.

 

[WildCat]

And btw, many so-called "fully funded" government pension plans are nothing of the sort. Illinois, for example, assumes the pension investments will yield 8.5% every year.

Anyone here have investments averaging an 8.5% return over the last 10 years? Didn't think so. But that's the rate our idiotic legislators rely on to calculate contributions, and why we have an $80 billion pension shortfall in Illlinois.

 

[TraneWreck]

What does the average full-time state employee make? What is the median?

It's easy to massage statistics to make them in your favor. Hey look, the state bought garbage bags for Boy Scout Troop 123 to clean litter along the highway, let's include them for calculating the average state worker salary!

Sure, more specific numbers would give an indication of which parts of the pension plan are appropriate and which aren't. I wouldn't argue that these plans don't need some redoing, I've seen plenty of abuses.

But Walker is acting like this is a crisis. The average pension number is relevant to the overall budget issue. If there's a shortfall, it will be based on the total. The average gives a good indication of how much money Wisconsin spends on pension plans, regardless of how it's allocated.

There is simply no justification for this insane move by Walker to destroy public sector unions.

 

[WildCat]

No, I'm asking government to honor the labor contracts they entered into.

I choose a mostly recession-proof profession, so could anyone else. And you're right, I think I'm entitled to every dime I make.

And taxpayers are choosing candidates who will put an end to that. At least you're not trotting out the old "we could make more in the private sector" nonsense I hear so much of.

 

[Alt+F4]

Generally, cops and firefighters are already prohibited from going on strike. This is a big part of the reason they don't have the bloated wages and bennies other public sector employees enjoy.

Wisconsin law prohibits teacher strikes. What makes you think cops and firefighters don't have many of the same deals that teachers do?

 

[Alt+F4]

And taxpayers are choosing candidates who will put an end to that. At least you're not trotting out the old "we could make more in the private sector" nonsense I hear so much of.

Unless you work in North Dakota I don't think teachers are poorly compensated. I don't see reducing current teacher salaries as an option at all, no matter who's been elected. Greater contributions to benefits and pension plans....well that's happening in many districts already.

 

[dudalb]

You are less witty than you take yourself to be. You are cheering on a thug who borke government just to have an excuse to break working people. It is all part of the corporatist long term strategy to beat the working class back into peonage.

I have a better idea. Break the corporations by a massive walk-out. Then let's see idiots like Walker call out the National Guard to herd their neighbors back to work.

Idiot boy Walker assumed too much power. He is not the wave of the future, but an undertow to the 19th century.

God, we are now spouting the "One Big Strike to Bring Down the Capiitalist system" nonsense.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of Walker's policies,I think his sending the police out to round up legislators and threatining use of the National Guard agains the protestors is way over the top.

I am scared that the extremists on both sides are coming to dominate politics.

 

[Kaosium]

"If I gotta hurt, you gonna too." is a very ugly sentiment.

You might want to rein it in.

LOL! Sorry, didn't mean to come off as that strident. My point was the private sector pays the salaries of the public sector, and tough times doesn't translate to immunity for the public sector. BTW, my father spent his life in government service in the USN and later the Feds. My Grandfather did the same in the Army and Post Office.

ETA: Also, uh. 'afraid'? You do realize the unions are the Democratic Base, right? They agree on shared ideals and principles.

Any politician so beholden to an interest group that they cower in Rockford isn't representing constituents, they're representing their campaign contributors. That goes for anyone on any issue.

Whether or not you agree is a different matter. Personally, I think that removing the rights of a union to bargain together is wrong because it's simply a move to assert the employer's power over the employee. But I'm crazy that way.

I think differently about public sector unions than I do private sector ones. I am wary of the former, but think the latter serve a viable economic purpose.

 

[Kaosium]

God, we are now spouting the "One Big Strike to Bring Down the Capiitalist system" nonsense.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of Walker's policies,I think his sending the police out to round up legislators

That's the Wisconsin state Constitution. From page A3 of today's WI State Journal: (don't think it's available online)

"The state Constitution gives the Senate the right to "compel the attendance of absent members in such manner and under such penalty as each house may provide." Once notified of the absence the Senate rules say the the Senate sergeant-of-arms "shall forthwith proceed to find and bring in such absentees."

OK, so we forgot to account for the infinite capacity of human naughtiness to provide for what we do if they run off to Rockford. That was pretty clever, I'll give them that. We'll figure it out.

and threatining use of the National Guard agains the protestors is way over the top.

Oh, c'mon! The Wisconsin National Guard is not gonna fire on any protesters! Trust me on this. This isn't Texas for crissakes! Protests have a long history in Madison, they're fun! The cute little college chicks get all fired up! Paul Soglin is running for mayor again, this is probably just a campaign strategy.

Headline from Page A6 of the WSJ:
"Protests good for business"

'Downtown eateries in particular are booming with customers this week."

I am scared that the extremists on both sides are coming to dominate politics.

We try new things in Wisconsin, the motto is 'Forward.' We're gonna give this a shot, perhaps like welfare reform or gay rights legislation it will catch on, perhaps like green cheese it won't. It isn't 'extremism' it's experimentation.

 

[Toontown]

Teacher turnover rates are high, especially in high poverty areas.

Is it really? Not around here. Teachers around here have a death grip on those cushy, secure teaching jobs.

Teacher salaries were low 50 years ago. Such is no longer the case.

If states want to gut the teacher's unions, and cut compensation to where it's a better deal to work at Walmart, just who do you think is going to replace all these teachers?

People who want to make 80 grand + bennies?

I suppose we'd have to open the immigration gates wider to close those brain-gaps.

Where are all these super-teachers willing to work for minimum wage and no benefits? In addition do you know what the cost would be to replace all these teachers?

80 large + bennies is minimum wage? No wonder the cost of a big mac has skyrocketed. Which brings to mind another question: hasn't anyone figured out yet that artificially jacking up wages only serves to devalue the currency? Especially the currency in the pockets of low wage workers? Every time unions successfully negotiate an unnecessary pay raise, they effectively rob the poor.

 

[Kaosium]

Wisconsin law prohibits teacher strikes. What makes you think cops and firefighters don't have many of the same deals that teachers do?

Then how come they go on strike anyways each time their contract is up and they don't get what they want?

From their mansion on Nob Hill WEAC has had its way with the state of Wisconsin for about twenty-five years now. It's been said they own and operate the state dem party, and the public school system I grew up in considered amongst the top in the nation, no longer is.

If Scott Walker breaks that union he will be a hero here.

Apologies if this hits close to home, believe this or not I didn't just read the AK threads and I recall you posting your position months back--and your salary. I also recall a little sneering, which is the sort of thing WEAC has been doing for a while and people have gotten sick of it.

 

[DavidJames]

The banking sector and Wall Street perpetrated the largest economic meltdown and financial fraud in this nation's history, and yet firefighters, teachers, prison guards and other civil service workers now must shoulder the blame.

It's a Republican thing.

When it's rich vs poor, owner vs labor, we know who they stand next to.

 

[Alt+F4]

Then how come they go on strike anyways each time their contract is up and they don't get what they want?

It's not an official strike (supported by the union), it's an illegal sick out.

From their mansion on Nob Hill WEAC has had it's way with the state of Wisconsin for about twenty-five years now. It's been said they own and operate the state dem party, and the public school system I grew up in considered amongst the top in the nation, no longer is.

I bet when you were in school you're parents took an interest in your education. That doesn't happen so much today. Parental apathy and absenteeism are the big problems today, not unions. Heck, the unions were around 20, 30, 40 years ago, back when education was "good" (and they had even sweeter deals back then).

If Scott Walker breaks that union he will be a hero here.

I don't think he'll be able to break the union. Even if he gets this bill passed it doesn't apply to salaries.

Apologies if this hits close to home, believe this or not I didn't just read the AK threads and I recall you posting your position months back--and your salary. I also recall a little sneering, which is the sort of thing WEAC has been doing for a while and people have gotten sick of it.

Where I live (NYS) all public employee salaries are made public.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Here is a very interesting analysis of the bill by Mother jones

http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/02/defunding-democratic-party

Apparently the bill does NOT impact public safety workers like cops and firemen? Why is that is it because teachers typically vote democtratic while cops don't?

The three exempted unions supported Repubs and all the unions affected supported Democratic Party candidates according to Rachel Maddow last night.

 

[BeAChooser]

Quote: … snip … The state pension plan, 15% of the money going into it each year is being paid out to Wall Street to manage the money.

… snip …

There are plenty of very compitent money managers that would manage the funds for much less than 15%. You want to save some money, cut out Wall Street, don't effectively give teachers a 7% pay cut.

This figure is totally bogus. This official Wisconsin government report

http://www.swib.state.wi.us/FY10annual.pdf

states that "costs for managing all funds were 32.5 cents per $100". That is no where near 15% of "the money going into it". It states that "all management costs are funded from earnings" from the funds. It states that "total costs for managing all funds for the calendar year ending December 31, 2009 were $232.2 million." And the investment income in 2010 was nearly $8 billion dollars with total assets over $70 billion.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It would seem when Repubs filibuster a bill that's peachy but when Democrats do it, that's criminal according to Fox's coverage right now. Rove managed to make it not just Obama's fault, but Obama is encouraging mayhem.

Boehner says it is not the "adult" way to discuss the issues. Like the Democrats or the affected worker had any opportunity whatsoever to discuss anything.

 

[BeAChooser]

But Walker is acting like this is a crisis.

Well, if democrats and greedy unions are in control, Wisconsin is but a few years away from becoming ... well ... California.